Driver Less Light Rail

Jamie2k9

A driverless Luas system is not possible with current technology, according to Transport Infrastructure Ireland.

In a response to a query from Dublin City Council's Transport Committee, TII says that Unattended Train Operation systems are used in a number of European countries, including France and Denmark.

TII Director of Capital Programme Management Peter Walsh says, however, that this is only possible with a segregated rail track, usually travelling underground.

Mr Walsh says self-driving software is not compatible with the Luas.

He said, however, that this is being considered as part of the design for the planned Metro North system.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2016/1005/821735-luas/

Maybe a silver lining in MN been delayed so much, no more NBRU/SIPTU in control, a small price worth paying....

KingBrian2

It would have to be proven to be safe mode of transport before implementation.

GM228

KingBrian2 wrote: »

It would have to be proven to be safe mode of transport before implementation.

Driverless trains (AKA Automatic Train Operation (ATO)) is well proven and well used technology accross the world.

Nekarsulm

But, But, But, how will we strike?

Works well for The Docklands Light Railway in London

snickerpuss

So was the Metro North to be a totally closed system? I.e. Not to connect with any current lines. Surely it being driverless would nix the idea that it could meet the Northern Line at Clongriffin?

GM228

snickerpuss wrote: »

So was the Metro North to be a totally closed system? I.e. Not to connect with any current lines. Surely it being driverless would nix the idea that it could meet the Northern Line at Clongriffin?

It could still connect with current lines, just not actually integrate with them - it would still be a closed system in itself.

The DLR is an example of this where it meets with the national system at Stratford station for example but is still a completely closed ATO system.

Sam Russell

Why can it not run with normal trains? Google do with cars on public roads with pedestrians, and bikes and dozy drivers.

Also, if MN is on standard gauge, they will not mix with traffic on the Northern Line, will they?

snickerpuss

Sam Russell wrote: »

Why can it not run with normal trains? Google do with cars on public roads with pedestrians, and bikes and dozy drivers.

Also, if MN is on standard gauge, they will not mix with traffic on the Northern Line, will they?

Any driverless system I've been on has had closed platforms where the train stops directly in front of automatic doors onto the platform. Surely that wouldn't work with current trains as they might be different configurations/doors in different places etc? The closed platform is presumably because there is no driver to check the platform is clear so it needs to be closed off?

Infini

I just find it silly we go and try and build yet another seperate rail system which is nothing more than a slightly bigger luas instead of just building a heavy rail line instead that links in with existing infrastucture. Not to mention this is getting priority over the Dart as well!

L1011

KingBrian2 wrote: »

It would have to be proven to be safe mode of transport before implementation.

Proven as such before Irish Rail even existed in that name.

Del.Monte

Given that driverless trains would be introduced purely to save money, how about management-less trains - that would save even more. Tons of office space could be sold off, the likes of Barry Kenny would have to find a real job - a win, win situation.

tabbey

Nekarsulm wrote: »

But, But, But, how will we strike?

The strikers would be the train operators. These people are on every DLR train, they check everybody is safely on board, before closing the doors and instructing the computer to drive on.

The operator also is available to drive manually if the need arises.

Operator on strike! -no DLR service.

However I do not know about the VAL metro systems in most French cities. These are so small and frequent that apart from occupying 10% of the space, an operator on every set would be highly labour intensive. These are probably remotely supervised.

Dardania

One of the newer lines in the Parisian metro is driverless - only one that runs when the drivers are on strike.

My personal (possibly right wing view) is that driverless systems are the way to go for public transport, because the drivers do prove a risk to the operation of those systems, which discourages people from giving up the car

tabbey

The OP refers to a report concerning an automated LUAS system.

Rightly this is not realistic at the moment, as the Green and red routes interact with road vehicles driven by drunks, criminals, Gardai and people merely under stress.

The technology exists for computer driven road vehicles, but they do not run in normal use because it has not been established whose insurance would pay in the event of a collision. The same would be true of a tram on the public highway.

An enclosed light rail system would be automated, but what we really need is heavy rail investment, to render our public transport fit for purpose in a medium sized city, not the glorified village that Dublin was a century ago.

eeguy

tabbey wrote: »

The OP refers to a report concerning an automated LUAS system.

Rightly this is not realistic at the moment, as the Green and red routes interact with road vehicles driven by drunks, criminals, Gardai and people merely under stress.

I wonder if you could automate the segregated parts of the Luas. The Green Line is segregated past the Grand Canal as far as I know and a lot of the Red Line is segregated out past Heuston.

What if you could have a hybrid system with a driver who does city centre driving and a computer that does the rest.

snickerpuss

eeguy wrote: »

I wonder if you could automate the segregated parts of the Luas. The Green Line is segregated past the Grand Canal as far as I know and a lot of the Red Line is segregated out past Heuston.

What if you could have a hybrid system with a driver who does city centre driving and a computer that does the rest.

But what would be the point in spending all that money upgrading only some of the track and only some of the systems and needing to continue to maintain and update the current track and systems? And you'd still have drivers.

XPS_Zero

Infini2 wrote: »

I just find it silly we go and try and build yet another seperate rail system which is nothing more than a slightly bigger luas instead of just building a heavy rail line instead that links in with existing infrastucture. Not to mention this is getting priority over the Dart as well!

A few reasons...

1. If we did say just have a the MN tunnels using the new DARTs it would mean IE would be in charge. The RPA and NTA were created because they were terrified putting Metro and Luas into CIEs hands as it's (ESP I.E. ) thick with maddening inefficiency waste and stupid work practices. Not to mention a long history of striking for really absurd reasons (see ICR introduction strike, refusal to cooperate with 10 min DARTs etc etc)

2. Not sure DARTs have the same speed

3. Dart Underground and Metro shouldn't be thought of as either or both are related and critical bits of the same puzzle.

4. They will be integrated at hubs. In some spots you'll be able to get off a Dart at one platform and onto a metro at another. Think of it more the way the Connoly/Luas hub is set up now as opposed to say trying to get from Shankill DART or the 145/84/7 to a Luas ATM which is a pain in the ass walk often in rain.

5. It's not slightly bigger metros will be DOUBLE the size of a Luas.

6 There's physical limits to adding bits to DART as existing lines are jammed up and haven't many free gaps. A western DART line can't even be done without Dart Underground

XPS_Zero

Dardania wrote: »

One of the newer lines in the Parisian metro is driverless - only one that runs when the drivers are on strike.

My personal (possibly right wing view) is that driverless systems are the way to go for public transport, because the drivers do prove a risk to the operation of those systems, which discourages people from giving up the car

The Luas drivers absurd negotiation position of a 50% hike from already comfortable wages was a complete PR disaster and I can tell you from a decision makers perspective basically gaurenteed that where technically feasible new systems will go driverless and through attrition and voluntary redundancy eventually much of the existing system will too eventually.

They massively overplayed their hand, classic example of tactical success leads to strategic blunder

eeguy

snickerpuss wrote: »

But what would be the point in spending all that money upgrading only some of the track and only some of the systems and needing to continue to maintain and update the current track and systems? And you'd still have drivers.

You'd still have drivers, but only need 30% of them, since 70% of the track is automated, and it could be a stepping stone for full automation when the technology catches up.

Just a though.

Del.Monte

The Red Luas line with no tram crew would be really scary in this bold new world scenario.

Cravens

Consider something like the Vancouver SkyTrain, it doesn't even have the DLR-style captains. So unless maintenance staff go on strike, it'll be hard to shut the Metro down.

Jamie2k9

Del.Monte wrote: »

The Red Luas line with no tram crew would be really scary in this bold new world scenario.

What would the driver do now than an automatic tram wouldn't?

Jamie2k9

Infini2 wrote: »

I just find it silly we go and try and build yet another seperate rail system which is nothing more than a slightly bigger luas instead of just building a heavy rail line instead that links in with existing infrastucture. Not to mention this is getting priority over the Dart as well!

Not allowing two unions bring the capital to a standstill once or twice a year.

tabbey

eeguy wrote: »

I wonder if you could automate the segregated parts of the Luas. The Green Line is segregated past the Grand Canal as far as I know and a lot of the Red Line is segregated out past Heuston.

What if you could have a hybrid system with a driver who does city centre driving and a computer that does the rest.

The green line south of the Grand canal has level crossings at Beechwood,Stillorgan, and several between Sandyford and Ballyogan, plus another at Lehaunstown ' Laughanstown.
The red line is also exposed to interaction with traffic and pedestrians.

Even without level crossings, there would be passengers crossing the tracks, especially when running to catch a tram, therefore a driver is needed.

Only enclosed systems, that is light rail lines where access is through platform doors lined up with vehicle doors, could be allowed to run without a human on the look out for reckless humans, dogs, horses etc.

afatbollix

tabbey wrote: »

The strikers would be the train operators. These people are on every DLR train, they check everybody is safely on board, before closing the doors and instructing the computer to drive on.

The operator also is available to drive manually if the need arises.

Operator on strike! -no DLR service.

However I do not know about the VAL metro systems in most French cities. These are so small and frequent that apart from occupying 10% of the space, an operator on every set would be highly labour intensive. These are probably remotely supervised.

Not every train has someone on it. They are more a security guard too not a driver. The people back in the office recently went on strike not the safety people on board.

Every modern off grid rail network should be planned to be driverless from now on. No need for drivers in the 21st century.

Heres a mad one on the London underground the Victoria line is completely automated. The drivers just open the doors and close them. They worked out that drivers were too slow to accelerate and braked early so it was less efficient. The computer sorted out all that. Its just a union reason there is still someone in the seat.

IE 222

Are a few strikes going to used against transport operations from now on. Think people are failing to luck at the bigger picture. Last time I checked the garda, teachers, nurses, prison officers and many others are also looking for better conditions and raises. Seems to me there is an underlying issue in the public sector as a whole than just bus and rail drivers.

IE 222

XPS_Zero wrote: »

A few reasons...

1. If we did say just have a the MN tunnels using the new DARTs it would mean IE would be in charge. The RPA and NTA were created because they were terrified putting Metro and Luas into CIEs hands as it's (ESP I.E. ) thick with maddening inefficiency waste and stupid work practices. Not to mention a long history of striking for really absurd reasons (see ICR introduction strike, refusal to cooperate with 10 min DARTs etc etc)

2. Not sure DARTs have the same speed

3. Dart Underground and Metro shouldn't be thought of as either or both are related and critical bits of the same puzzle.

4. They will be integrated at hubs. In some spots you'll be able to get off a Dart at one platform and onto a metro at another. Think of it more the way the Connoly/Luas hub is set up now as opposed to say trying to get from Shankill DART or the 145/84/7 to a Luas ATM which is a pain in the ass walk often in rain.

5. It's not slightly bigger metros will be DOUBLE the size of a Luas.

6 There's physical limits to adding bits to DART as existing lines are jammed up and haven't many free gaps. A western DART line can't even be done without Dart Underground

1. What's to say metro driver wouldn't strike. Where luas drivers not on strike recently????

2. What speed do you expect metro to be doing. Darts can travel at 60mph but only travel short distances between stops so not needed to or possible in most cases to reach such speeds.

3. 2 separate systems don't work as well. Metro will only connect with Dart once. We are talking of creating a 4th rail service connected in one location or haven to make multiple changes between 3 modes of transport. A full dart system open ups the network to a larger range of people.

4. Again multiple hubs leads to multiple changes and eventually create bottlenecks. These hubs will only be possible in city centre locations in the few places these routes meet.

5. Dart would be DOUBLE that again.

6. Metro won't work without DU. Where will these hubs you talk about be if DU isn't built. Northern line needs 3 and 4 tracking in places not impossible and probably a fraction of the cost of building future metro lines to fill the gaps dart wasn't allowed to do.

Metro is a fantasy that sounds wonderful. The tunnels are needed but using dart will save billions in the long run and benefit the whole country with through connections into all irish rail and luas services. Slight changes in tunnelling will allow for Darts to travel all possible route options.

end of the road

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

http://www.rte.ie/news/2016/1005/821735-luas/

Maybe a silver lining in MN been delayed so much, no more NBRU/SIPTU in control, a small price worth paying....

they aren't in control in the first place. i'm sure they're will still be some staff and they may be part of a union.

Nekarsulm wrote: »

But, But, But, how will we strike?

Works well for The Docklands Light Railway in London

except when they have had strikes, which they have had a few over the years.

XPS_Zero wrote: »

The Luas drivers absurd negotiation position of a 50% hike from already comfortable wages was a complete PR disaster and I can tell you from a decision makers perspective basically gaurenteed that where technically feasible new systems will go driverless and through attrition and voluntary redundancy eventually much of the existing system will too eventually.

They massively overplayed their hand, classic example of tactical success leads to strategic blunder

incorrect. it's amazing how some like to re-write history.
the pay negotiations at luas which used 50% as an opening bargaining chip only (which they knew damn well they were never going to get) made no difference what soever on this issue. they didn't over play their hand at all, they got a decent deal from it. i know people find that hard to except but it's time for people to move on and except it.
the existing system won't be automated in our lifetimes, or at least not without staff on the train who may strike meaning no operation. the move to driverless systems where feasible would be happening even if they're never were strikes, why would staff be paid unless necessary.

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Not allowing two unions bring the capital to a standstill once or twice a year.

but that doesn't happen. strikes and unions are not a legitimate reason for another
different disintegrated system.

afatbollix wrote: »

Not every train has someone on it. They are more a security guard too not a driver. The people back in the office recently went on strike not the safety people on board.

Every modern off grid rail network should be planned to be driverless from now on. No need for drivers in the 21st century.

Heres a mad one on the London underground the Victoria line is completely automated. The drivers just open the doors and close them. They worked out that drivers were too slow to accelerate and braked early so it was less efficient. The computer sorted out all that. Its just a union reason there is still someone in the seat.

incorrect. the reason they're are still drivers on the victoria line is nothing to do with the union. it's to do with evacuation in an emergency among other reasons. they're is absolutely a need for a driver in the 21st century, otherwise they wouldn't exist at all on any railway.

end of the road

XPS_Zero wrote: »

A few reasons...

1. If we did say just have a the MN tunnels using the new DARTs it would mean IE would be in charge. The RPA and NTA were created because they were terrified putting Metro and Luas into CIEs hands as it's (ESP I.E. ) thick with maddening inefficiency waste and stupid work practices. Not to mention a long history of striking for really absurd reasons (see ICR introduction strike, refusal to cooperate with 10 min DARTs etc etc)

unlike the luas operator who has never had a strike. oh, wait. IE being in charge is no excuse to waste money on a different disintegrated system.
strikes don't happen for no reason, people lose pay. i'm sure the people working on the railway will know more then me or you whether their reasons for striking are legitimate or not. you thinking they are absurd doesn't make them so.

XPS_Zero wrote: »

2. Not sure DARTs have the same speed

well, they are mixing with other services so it's not surprising they won't travel as fast as they can and should. which is why it's more important to build up the dart area and add more lines, rather then a pointless metro.

XPS_Zero wrote: »

3. Dart Underground and Metro shouldn't be thought of as either or both are related and critical bits of the same puzzle.

exactly, so dart underground and the metro line as a single project integrating with the heavy rail network and allowing interoperability makes 100% sense.

XPS_Zero wrote: »

4. They will be integrated at hubs. In some spots you'll be able to get off a Dart at one platform and onto a metro at another. Think of it more the way the Connoly/Luas hub is set up now as opposed to say trying to get from Shankill DART or the 145/84/7 to a Luas ATM which is a pain in the ass walk often in rain.

they won't be truely integrated. sharing platform interchanges between 2 completely different systems don't allow for flexibility and true integration.

XPS_Zero wrote: »

5. It's not slightly bigger metros will be DOUBLE the size of a Luas.

they won't be big enough and will be under capacity from day 1.

XPS_Zero wrote: »

6 There's physical limits to adding bits to DART as existing lines are jammed up and haven't many free gaps. A western DART line can't even be done without Dart Underground

it can be done with the willingness to spend the money. dart is creaking and needs expansion

Jamie2k9

IE 222 wrote: »

Are a few strikes going to used against transport operations from now on. Think people are failing to luck at the bigger picture. Last time I checked the garda, teachers, nurses, prison officers and many others are also looking for better conditions and raises. Seems to me there is an underlying issue in the public sector as a whole than just bus and rail drivers.

Nope but what Infini2 suggested is not at all practical solution to heavy rail issues. Metro line is needed as North Dublin is rapidly expanding and going under ground is more likely unavoidable. I'm sure if they could construct a Luas line like the Green one it would already be in construction.

As for the general strike comment, those latter members actually deserve a big pay rise because they actually do serious work and come out with the same or less than bus/tram drivers.

end of the road

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Nope but what Infini2 suggested is not at all practical solution to heavy rail issues. Metro line is needed as North Dublin is rapidly expanding and going under ground is more likely unavoidable. I'm sure if they could construct a Luas line like the Green one it would already be in construction.

you can have an underground heavy rail line. takes in dart underground, airport link, and associated infrastructure expansion to allow greater capacity on the existing dart network. all that would make a rather decent system. a separate system like metro is in my view a waste of time and money. building the line as heavy rail underground however would have a lot more benefits.

NiallBoo

Why not use dual-gauge tracks?

NiallBoo

Re automated Luas:

The technology isn't quite there for a non-segregated system...but it's close, very close.
The tech is being pushed through for cars and is looking good, at least in urban environments - and a tram would be much easier.
Really the bones of it are there already, it would just need someone to invest in porting it to a tram system and test.

Jamie2k9

end of the road wrote: »

you can have an underground heavy rail line. takes in dart underground, airport link, and associated infrastructure expansion to allow greater capacity on the existing dart network. all that would make a rather decent system. a separate system like metro is in my view a waste of time and money. building the line as heavy rail underground however would have a lot more benefits.

You can but with a metro every 7 minutes and commuter/DART on existing N Commuter lines every 10 minutes what benefit is there to heavy rail. Why waste hundreds of millions more when there would be no benefits to heavy rail operations. Would be better spent adding a third line in parts to existing heavy rail network on N Commuter.

Del.Monte

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

What would the driver do now than an automatic tram wouldn't?

A good question but I know that I always travel as close to the driver as possible on the Red Line in, perhaps, the vain belief that he would summon help in event of an incident.

tabbey

end of the road wrote: »

you can have an underground heavy rail line. takes in dart underground, airport link, and associated infrastructure expansion to allow greater capacity on the existing dart network. all that would make a rather decent system. a separate system like metro is in my view a waste of time and money. building the line as heavy rail underground however would have a lot more benefits.

I entirely agree.

Massive investment in heavy rail is urgently needed, both quadrupling as much as possible of the existing routes, and additonal heavy rail underground lines.

The powers that be, who only do what the ignorant majority tell them,have blithely pursued a road based solution for Dublin, as if it was a small city, and we are paying the price.

Once a city goes over a million, a heavy rail network is needed, both for inner suburbs, slow tracks, and outer suburban / intercity services, running on fast tracks.

Burying heads under the sand does not work, government must address the issue now, for Dublin to have any future.

Sam Russell

NiallBoo wrote: »

Why not use dual-gauge tracks?

They have a problem in Australia with mixed gauge. It does not work well for them.

Standard gauge is 4ft 8.5 inches or 1.423 metres. Irish gauge is 1.6 metres or 5ft 3.52 inches. The difference is about 7 inches, which is a bit tight for points, I would think. It would also give rise to differential wear on the tracks.

The mistake was to allow Luas to use standard gauge.

Jamie2k9

Del.Monte wrote: »

A good question but I know that I always travel as close to the driver as possible on the Red Line in, perhaps, the vain belief that he would summon help in event of an incident.

Well I'm sure they would have SOS points on board that connect with control center and that's all the driver would do today is communicate with control in any incident. They won't leave the cab under any circumstances.

Del.Monte

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Well I'm sure they would have SOS points on board that connect with control center and that's all the driver would do today is communicate with control in any incident. They won't leave the cab under any circumstances.

Well I like to think that if the driver could see an incident directly behind him that he would do something, but perhaps not.

afatbollix

Del.Monte wrote: »

Well I like to think that if the driver could see an incident directly behind him that he would do something, but perhaps not.

They are drivers not security guards. Would you go up against some of the public on the red line?

IE 222

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Nope but what Infini2 suggested is not at all practical solution to heavy rail issues. Metro line is needed as North Dublin is rapidly expanding and going under ground is more likely unavoidable. I'm sure if they could construct a Luas line like the Green one it would already be in construction.

As for the general strike comment, those latter members actually deserve a big pay rise because they actually do serious work and come out with the same or less than bus/tram drivers.

I agree an underground line is the only real option but it needs to be Dart and not a new separate service running on its own.

Bus and rail drivers must do serious work as well seen as most here can't seem to cope with them on strike. Maybe if some where effected by crime on the day of a garda strike so opinions may change and not be so supporting after all.

IE 222

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

You can but with a metro every 7 minutes and commuter/DART on existing N Commuter lines every 10 minutes what benefit is there to heavy rail. Why waste hundreds of millions more when there would be no benefits to heavy rail operations. Would be better spent adding a third line in parts to existing heavy rail network on N Commuter.

There would be massive benefits for heavy rail not only in Dublin but for most of the country. Nothing wrong with having the metro route implemented by using Dart with connections into the rest of the network. Yes it would involve slight changes for maximum benefit. Savings made can go towards northern line capacity upgrades.

MGWR

Sam Russell wrote: »

They have a problem in Australia with mixed gauge. It does not work well for them.

Standard gauge is 4ft 8.5 inches or 1.423 metres. Irish gauge is 1.6 metres or 5ft 3.52 inches. The difference is about 7 inches, which is a bit tight for points, I would think. It would also give rise to differential wear on the tracks.

The mistake was to allow Luas to use standard gauge.

This pic shows mixed 1600-mm and 1435-mm gauge tracks in Geelong, Australia, with points included. It's doable, but increases expense.

Jamie2k9

IE 222 wrote: »

There would be massive benefits for heavy rail not only in Dublin but for most of the country. Nothing wrong with having the metro route implemented by using Dart with connections into the rest of the network. Yes it would involve slight changes for maximum benefit. Savings made can go towards northern line capacity upgrades.

it will all be integrated eventually. Swords and Airport need a separate routing and should be just that. If you ant a Heavy rail connection then then expand N Line and spend the 150-200 million on airport spur.

IE 222

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

it will all be integrated eventually. Swords and Airport need a separate routing and should be just that. If you ant a Heavy rail connection then then expand N Line and spend the 150-200 million on airport spur.

It won't be integrated. What you talk of is haven luas, dart, metro and intercity / suburban. They will each meet in one location by means of transferring from one to the other, just add more buses then. Very short sighted thinking here as by the time it's built every pro metro campaigner will be asking for expansion and more integration. A metro running Swords to SSG via the airport is only reducing traffic on one small corridor. People need to think beyond the city centre and dublin. A full Dart system benefits not only dublin but all surrounding areas.

Jamie2k9

IE 222 wrote: »

It won't be integrated. What you talk of is haven luas, dart, metro and intercity / suburban. They will each meet in one location by means of transferring from one to the other, just add more buses then. Very short sighted thinking here as by the time it's built every pro metro campaigner will be asking for expansion and more integration. A metro running Swords to SSG via the airport is only reducing traffic on one small corridor. People need to think beyond the city centre and dublin. A full Dart system benefits not only dublin but all surrounding areas.

And with heavy rail to the airport the same will be required, you cannot have a direct link from everywhere to one location.

As for the metro corridor, the North route into the city is fastest growing in terms of population.

So you want DARTS from Bray, Graystones, Howth, Malahide, Maynooth, Intercity and Louth services to all run to the airport directly? It just isn't possible.

This metro line will likely be the first of many if it's gets built so a hub at SSG with Luas is logical and DU if happens will also be there.

Sam Russell

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

And with heavy rail to the airport the same will be required, you cannot have a direct link from everywhere to one location.

As for the metro corridor, the North route into the city is fastest growing in terms of population.

So you want DARTS from Bray, Graystones, Howth, Malahide, Maynooth, Intercity and Louth services to all run to the airport directly? It just isn't possible.

This metro line will likely be the first of many if it's gets built so a hub at SSG with Luas is logical and DU if happens will also be there.

If the Metro North is Dart rolling stock, and Dart underground is built, Dart to Swords/SSG is one line. With the Clongriffin spur, there is Airport to Bray via Connolly is a second, and Bray to Maynooth is a third, with GCD to Hazlehatch a fourth. This serves North Dublin and West Dublin.

For the South side continue the Dart south from SSG underground to Ranelagh and on to Brides Glen and onto Bray, and divert Luas at Charlement Bridge towards Sandymount and Ringsend east and west along the canal to Killmainham, linking up with the red line.

With the old Glass Bottle site developed for housing and offices, you begin to have a system which is Dublin wide.

Obviously, this will be done in time for the 2116 celebrations of the two hundred year anniversary of the GPO uprising. Let us hope we all live to see it.

Lots of joined up routes.

Jamie2k9

Sam Russell wrote: »

If the Metro North is Dart rolling stock, and Dart underground is built, Dart to Swords/SSG is one line. With the Clongriffin spur, there is Airport to Bray via Connolly is a second, and Bray to Maynooth is a third, with GCD to Hazlehatch a fourth. This serves North Dublin and West Dublin.

For the South side continue the Dart south from SSG underground to Ranelagh and on to Brides Glen and onto Bray, and divert Luas at Charlement Bridge towards Sandymount and Ringsend east and west along the canal to Killmainham, linking up with the red line.

With the old Glass Bottle site developed for housing and offices, you begin to have a system which is Dublin wide.

Obviously, this will be done in time for the 2116 celebrations of the two hundred year anniversary of the GPO uprising. Let us hope we all live to see it.

Lots of joined up routes.

So the only problem with MN is the rolling stock as DART from Swords to SSG (and beyond) over a metro branded service. I still cannot see logical reason why IE should operate it.....far more efficient in terms of cost and operations.

High frequency and easy transit is most important to people,
There is nothing stopping the spur been developed as a separate project for IE. We all know the N Commuter needs a third rail but that in it'

IE 222

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

And with heavy rail to the airport the same will be required, you cannot have a direct link from everywhere to one location.

As for the metro corridor, the North route into the city is fastest growing in terms of population.

So you want DARTS from Bray, Graystones, Howth, Malahide, Maynooth, Intercity and Louth services to all run to the airport directly? It just isn't possible.

This metro line will likely be the first of many if it's gets built so a hub at SSG with Luas is logical and DU if happens will also be there.

Heavy rail to airport would offer about 15 routes from around the country into 1 direct link with 1 change of trains.

Fastest grown now maybe. Think 10 years time we won't even have a tunnel within the next 6 or 7 years. Commuters will want travel to other places other than SSG as well.

I also fail to see what benefit there is for passengers using the metro from the airport. Can't see it appealing to many travelling to SSG and either hop on a bus or luas from here.


Personally I'd run a Dart metro from malahide to Broombridge via swords and Airport creating 2 or 3 routes for Swords and Airport passengers, obviously with Dart on the maynooth line. People in swords could go via northern line, Maynooth line or change to Luas at Broombridge. That alone connects the whole of North dublin.

Sam Russell

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

I still cannot see logical reason why IE should operate it.....far more efficient in terms of cost and operations.

Unfortunately IE is hated with a passion by the Civil Servants and the politicians in the Dept of Transport and in the Dail. That is why Transdev got the gig and also why Luas is on standard gauge (4ft 8.5 inches) rather than the Irish gauge (1.6m) - it makes it easier for them to make sure there cannot be any interoperability with Irish Rail.

[The same hatred applies to RTE - they are also hated in the same way.]

BeepBeep67

tabbey wrote: »

The strikers would be the train operators. These people are on every DLR train, they check everybody is safely on board, before closing the doors and instructing the computer to drive on.

The operator also is available to drive manually if the need arises.

Operator on strike! -no DLR service.

However I do not know about the VAL metro systems in most French cities. These are so small and frequent that apart from occupying 10% of the space, an operator on every set would be highly labour intensive. These are probably remotely supervised.

I was in London late last year when the DLR was on strike, fun and games getting to LCY, ended up on a bus from the sixties