*Thread Spilt* Recreational Runners and Joining Clubs

Chivito550

Myles Splitz wrote: »

To play devils advocate what exactly have you done to increase spectator views (I mean you in more a general sense in terms of AAI members?)

Have you brought along a family member/OH/friend to a track meet?
Have you offered to help officiate when not competing to allow others to spectate?
Have you mentioned the event to people in work or put up a flyer?
Have you promoted the event on your own social media feeds in advance?
Have you arrived a little bit earlier to events to support juveniles/other events?

I think we all pass the book a little too much rather than take a little bit on board. to get 100 people to try and convince 1-2 people than 1-2 people try and convince 100-200 extra.

A lot of people getting to posts I deleted in the nick of time. Really not arsed anymore with this.

I think I've done a fair bit personally to try promote the sport.

Myles Splitz

Chivito550 wrote: »

I think I've done a fair bit personally to try promote the sport.

My point was not to pick on you specifically

My point is at this moment in time there are currently 41643 Senior or Masters runners in this country affiliated to AAI clubs.

If each of them contributed 1 hr a week/month to the club in a non participatory role;

* Answering club emails
* handing out flyers at park run
* Drawing up Newsletter
* Compiling club results from that week
* Facility maintenance work
* Basic club admin
* Website updating
* Officiating
* Helping coach
* Fundraising
* Club Race organisation

Think of how much could get done to develop the sport from grassroots level and how much pressure it would take off those who are there day in day out trying to do their best for the club/sport.

average_runner

Myles Splitz wrote: »

My point was not to pick on you specifically

My point is at this moment in time there are currently 41643 Senior or Masters runners in this country affiliated to AAI clubs.

If each of them contributed 1 hr a week/month to the club in a non participatory role;

* Answering club emails
* handing out flyers at park run
* Drawing up Newsletter
* Compiling club results from that week
* Facility maintenance work
* Basic club admin
* Website updating
* Officiating
* Helping coach
* Fundraising
* Club Race organisation

Think of how much could get done to develop the sport from grassroots level and how much pressure it would take off those who are there day in day out trying to do their best for the club/sport.

Surely there should be just one database for all results for one particular week and a club member just runs a simple query?

Tombo2001

RayCun wrote: »

Obviously, anything more than rocking up on the day of a race and saying "these kids want to run" presents some sort of barrier. But are the barriers unnecessarily high? I don't think so.

Sticking with kids and cross-country...

To get the use of the parks where the races are held, the organisers have to show that they have insurance. The insurance is based on everyone competing being a registered member of an AAI club (or a school, for those competitions). Step outside that model, and you need to have event-specific insurance, pre-registered competitors, higher fees - swapping one set of barriers for another.

Athletics Ireland can't grant club status to anyone who sends in an email. Their insurers want to know that the people they are insuring are in some way responsible. Setting up a club with named officers and a constitution provides some comeback. And you're talking about coaching kids. The reputational damage that could be caused to the AAI, and athletics in general, if kids are treated badly, is enormous. You will have to jump through some hoops, you will have to demonstrate your bona fides, and that is exactly as it should be. Yeah, that's some work, but the alternative is not an alternative.

The funny thing is, you're balking at the once-off start up costs associated with juvenile competition. This is nothing! The hassle of juvenile athletics is not in writing a constitution or picking a treasurer. It's in getting coaches to commit to training the kids week in and week out.

The alternative is to send the kids to the local junior park run, which is free and anyone can enter.

Similarly, community games - free and anyone can enter.

Myles Splitz

average_runner wrote: »

Surely there should be just one database for all results for one particular week and a club member just runs a simple query?

Great in theory but with different timing companies, different disciplines and the sheer number of events not organised by Clubs (fundraising exercises etc) as well as the number of events that are not AAI permit games where would you begin?

HelenAnne

average_runner wrote: »

Surely there should be just one database for all results for one particular week and a club member just runs a simple query?

I sometimes compile club weekend results etc for our Fit 4 Life page; I'm sure there could be a better way, but in reality it involves knowing / guessing what races / parkruns around the country people might have run, thinking of the various ways people could have entered the club name and searching under all of them (you'd be surprised - in most races you'll find the club listed a few times under slightly different names) and then noticing if a likely suspect / someone you know ran a race hasn't come up under a 'Club' search and searching for them by name. Then in races like the race series, you have to go into each individual result to get their chip time. And still you'll miss people out and (some!) people will kick up a hue and cry at being left out of the results round up.

Wottle

To have more athletes competing as adults in national competition, we need more juveniles taking up the sport and staying at it.
To have more juveniles take up the sport, we need to advertise and sell ourselves, make it more glamorous and fun, be aggressive in targeting schools.
Can't do any of this without manpower and this is where the problem lies.

There are very few volunteers who are in it for the long term, the majority of helpers are made up of parents who don't really care as much and will be gone when their child has either packed it in or is old enough to get themselves to training, so then we recruit the next generation of helper/parent and the cycle repeats, so the standard of coaching is very mediocre as well.

I don't really know how to fix it, I'd love to see more masters play a part as their knowledge is priceless but not sure how that would work, really stuck for ideas.
It's very hard to compete with soccer, GAA and hockey. At 14 when a childs time becomes more demanding with school work as well, athletics is the first to go. The ratio of 10:1 that most clubs implement isn't helping the cause either but in todays times is probably a must.

RayCun

Tombo2001 wrote: »

The alternative is to send the kids to the local junior park run, which is free and anyone can enter.

Similarly, community games - free and anyone can enter.

I'm not involved in community games, though I know some people who are. Tell me, what is the difference between setting up and running a community games area committee and setting up and running an athletics club? Each area committee requires a chair, secretary, treasurer, children's officer, there has to be an AGM, all volunteers must be garda vetted, all participants must be registered...

Tombo2001

RayCun wrote: »

I'm not involved in community games, though I know some people who are. Tell me, what is the difference between setting up and running a community games area committee and setting up and running an athletics club? Each area committee requires a chair, secretary, treasurer, children's officer, there has to be an AGM, all volunteers must be garda vetted, all participants must be registered...

The principal difference I am referring to is that any child can do the park run.

Any child cant do an AAI event, and if you have no local club then you have no options with AAI.

I have no doubt that organising community games is challenging, and park run.

But participation is open to all.

average_runner

Myles Splitz wrote: »

Great in theory but with different timing companies, different disciplines and the sheer number of events not organised by Clubs (fundraising exercises etc) as well as the number of events that are not AAI permit games where would you begin?

You would just cover AAI permit races and force the timing companies to comply with it.
Distances shouldn't be an issue as each distance as database would handle that

RayCun

Any child can turn up and do the parkrun, if there is a parkrun. There has to be an organising group who'll put it on.

Any child can turn up and do the community games, if there is a community games locally. Someone has to do the work of running the games.

Any child can turn up and join a running club, if someone does the work of setting up and running the club.

Myles Splitz

average_runner wrote: »

You would just cover AAI permit races and force the timing companies to comply with it.
Distances shouldn't be an issue as each distance as database would handle that

What about club races so small that they don't use chip timing?
How exactly would AAI force timing companies? They are hired by the races not the AAI.
Will athletes make the distinction when everyone elses results are mentioned in weekly round up bar theres (no its the club PRO that gets it in the neck)
What about XC races that are hand timed mostly?
What about results that don't become available for a couple of days (XC being an example)

As I said in ideal world would be good (i know tfrss.org in USA does this but to my mind is the only example in the world in a collegiate system which is heavily funded)

average_runner

Myles Splitz wrote: »

What about club races so small that they don't use chip timing?
How exactly would AAI force timing companies? They are hired by the races not the AAI.
Will athletes make the distinction when everyone elses results are mentioned in weekly round up bar theres (no its the club PRO that gets it in the neck)
What about XC races that are hand timed mostly?
What about results that don't become available for a couple of days (XC being an example)

As I said in ideal world would be good (i know tfrss.org in USA does this but to my mind is the only example in the world in a collegiate system which is heavily funded)

First of all, any one giving stick to a volunteer at a club should be shown the door or take over the role.
XC races can be chipped easily.
The small club races can have someone on the committee manually enter the results into the database, after it all its a small race.

No matter what fault you will find there is a way around it.

Myles Splitz

average_runner wrote: »

First of all, any one giving stick to a volunteer at a club should be shown the door or take over the role.
XC races can be chipped easily.
The small club races can have someone on the committee manually enter the results into the database, after it all its a small race.

No matter what fault you will find there is a way around it.

Don't think would be too many club runners left in that situation Plenty of people vocal about issues and solutions but often won't step up to fill the role so I doubt many would assume roles.

XC can be chipped easily sure but chip timing costs money given the low turnout numbers cost doesn't make this feasible in most cases.

Again who is gonna enforce manual entry and what penalties can be implemented if they don't?

It's a side issue however my main point was there is plenty people could do to help clubs and sharing the workload would go a long way but sadly out of those 41,000 I quoted I would imagine that the sports is probably kept going in this county by less than 1000 putting the work in, in the background.

Sunny Dayz

RayCun wrote: »

Any child can turn up and do the parkrun, if there is a parkrun. There has to be an organising group who'll put it on.

Any child can turn up and do the community games, if there is a community games locally. Someone has to do the work of running the games.

Any child can turn up and join a running club, if someone does the work of setting up and running the club.

Agreed. You can't encourage kids into athletics if the opportunity to enter isn't there. My child isn't interested in gaelic, rugby, soccer etc but if he wanted to he could join a club tomorrow. He likes running and IMO he is good at it. It is heartbreaking when you see other kids involved in and enjoying other sports. But my son runs recreationally and doesn't get to complete with kids his own age and get that same enjoyment.


- Parkrun - no junior parkrun in the area and tbh no demand for it either. Himself does parkrun 5km but not many kids do our parkrun.
- Community games - no community games group in our town, I've contacted the county board a number of times about this and got no reply.
- Running clubs - the nearest athletics club is full, I've been trying to get him in for the past 2 years. There is no other club nearby unless I wanted to travel the far side of the county or to another county.

Tombo2001

RayCun wrote: »

Any child can turn up and do the parkrun, if there is a parkrun. There has to be an organising group who'll put it on.

Any child can turn up and do the community games, if there is a community games locally. Someone has to do the work of running the games.

Any child can turn up and join a running club, if someone does the work of setting up and running the club.

You are comparing apples with oranges.

A running club does not organise regular, scheduled running events for kids. Training yes, races no. They do the odd one here or there, not regular races.

The comparison is between Parkrun and Athletics Ireland.

Parkrun organises regular scheduled running events

AI does this also.

Parkrun does it in a way that is accessible to all.

AI does it in way that is not accessible to all.

There is absolutely no argument about the fact that Parkrun has gotten people running in a way that AI never has.

And the difference is accessibility.

Running is the most natural sport for kids; probably the most natural one there is.

And yet, until recently there is hardly any race they can enter unless they are a member of a club.

El Caballo

Tombo2001 wrote: »

You are comparing apples with oranges.

A running club does not organise regular, scheduled running events for kids. Training yes, races no. They do the odd one here or there, not regular races.

The comparison is between Parkrun and Athletics Ireland.

Parkrun organises regular scheduled running events

AI does this also.

Parkrun does it in a way that is accessible to all.

AI does it in way that is not accessible to all.

There is absolutely no argument about the fact that Parkrun has gotten people running in a way that AI never has.

And the difference is accessibility.

Running is the most natural sport for kids; probably the most natural one there is.

And yet, until recently there is hardly any race they can enter unless they are a member of a club.

I don't get this, if a parent wants a kid to run theses, just sign them up to a club just like they have to sign them up to do a parkrun, what's the big deal, hardly an overwhelming barrier to clear.

Tombo2001

El Caballo wrote: »

I don't get this, if a parent wants a kid to run theses, just sign them up to a club just like they have to sign them up to do a parkrun, what's the big deal, hardly an overwhelming barrier to clear.

Because lots of people/ kids have no running club they can access ......that's the problem.

And if they aren't in a club they cant do the AAI race.

And if they aren't in a club, they can do a park run.

Accessibility.

DubOnHoliday

I must say that joining a club for me was a great decision. The club has a healthy feed of new members from a c25k stream. One day a week all levels of runner are in the track. Although I may not attend every session, I know that if I want to do a run I can arrange company in the space of a few texts. When IMRA season winds down, I use the club to do xc which fits in nicely with my overall aim of hill running. My daughter has since joined so it was only natural that I'd help with the coaching too. The best days are when you attend races as a team, it's hard to beat actually.

RayCun

Actually, all of the Dublin juvenile cross country races are organised by clubs. League one by Lusk and Balbriggan, league two on Sunday by Donor. League 3 is Rathfarnham. I don't know who is organising the even age championships, but I think the uneven ages are Santry so Clonliffe. The county board supply officials, first aid and the PA system but the course is organised by a club. Same with nationals afaik, some support from AAI but a lot done by a local club.

Anyway, my point is, you're asking why kids can't just turn up and run in AAI events, why do you have to put in work. But someone always has to put in work. The people who set up the local parkrun had to put in work so you could just turn up with your kid and a barcode. The people who run the local community games put in a lot of work. The people who run athletics clubs put in a lot of work. You are in a situation where the parkrun already exists and the community games already exists but a club doesn't so you're complaining about the work that would mean for you. If you lived somewhere with a club where you could just drop the kids off, but no parkrun or community games, would you complain about them?

Sunny Dayz

El Caballo wrote: »

I don't get this, if a parent wants a kid to run theses, just sign them up to a club just like they have to sign them up to do a parkrun, what's the big deal, hardly an overwhelming barrier to clear.

It's not that simple. Maybe in Dublin it is but not down the country. I've been trying to get my son into a club for 2 years with no success. But he does 5km parkrun most weekends.

RayCun

Sunny Dayz wrote: »

It's not that simple. Maybe in Dublin it is but not down the country. I've been trying to get my son into a club for 2 years with no success. But he does 5km parkrun most weekends.

Have you offered to coach yourself? That's the limiting factor for most clubs, so it may help your son get a place

Sunny Dayz

RayCun wrote: »

Sunny Dayz wrote: »

It's not that simple. Maybe in Dublin it is but not down the country. I've been trying to get my son into a club for 2 years with no success. But he does 5km parkrun most weekends.

Have you offered to coach yourself? That's the limiting factor for most clubs, so it may help your son get a place

I've offered to supervise, help out with whatever needs doing to help with adult:kid ratio. But got no response. I wouldn't be confident enough to coach.

jamule

Why is there v few people in their 20s running.

IvoryTower

Because they're playing football/gaa

IvoryTower

Double post

Amadeus 2014

Wow, time for this debate again already!

dna pretty much nailed it by calling out that there are two different sports, though I'd split them slightly differently.

There is Road Racing. There is Track and Field. They have as much in common as Tag Rugby and Rugby.

In order to progress - and often even to compete - in Track and Field you must be in a club. They have the facilities, they have the coaching, they control entry to the events.

In order to take part - or compete - in Road Racing all you have to do is pay your entry fee. To train all you need are a pair of runners. No special facilities, no fancy equipment. No coaching. All of these things can help but are optional extras, there are no barriers to entry.

The confusion arises because some clubs cater for both types of runner and / or clubs organise road races. This generates overlap between the two sports (and spawns the mutant offspring XC *shudder*). But it doesn't make the two sports one. And for some unknown reason the Track and Field lobby feel the need to evangelicise to all of us Road Runners about clubs and the vast benefits we would get from joining. And like atheists when the Mormons come knocking we nod politely, maybe take a leaflet and then carry on as we were...

Of course in many cases people can be passionate about Road Racing; we compete, volunteer or support local events and watch the big events (London or the Olympic marathon) on TV. But watching some lycra clad loon ponce around a track for a handfull of seconds? Or worse take turns at jumping over something *really* high or throwing something *really* heavy? Why on earth would I want to do that? There is as much overlap between that and what I do as there is between Rory Best and Jill from Accounts when she does tag rugby at lunchtime...


[edit]

Just had a thought. At least we can all agree that we are all better than triathletes, right!?!

kit3

Amadeus 2014 wrote: »

Wow, time for this debate again already!

dna pretty much nailed it by calling out that there are two different sports, though I'd split them slightly differently.

There is Road Racing. There is Track and Field. They have as much in common as Tag Rugby and Rugby.

In order to progress - and often even to compete - in Track and Field you must be in a club. They have the facilities, they have the coaching, they control entry to the events.

In order to take part - or compete - in Road Racing all you have to do is pay your entry fee. To train all you need are a pair of runners. No special facilities, no fancy equipment. No coaching. All of these things can help but are optional extras, there are no barriers to entry.

The confusion arises because some clubs cater for both types of runner and / or clubs organise road races. This generates overlap between the two sports (and spawns the mutant offspring XC *shudder*). But it doesn't make the two sports one. And for some unknown reason the Track and Field lobby feel the need to evangelicise to all of us Road Runners about clubs and the vast benefits we would get from joining. And like atheists when the Mormons come knocking we nod politely, maybe take a leaflet and then carry on as we were...

Of course in many cases people can be passionate about Road Racing; we compete, volunteer or support local events and watch the big events (London or the Olympic marathon) on TV. But watching some lycra clad loon ponce around a track for a handfull of seconds? Or worse take turns at jumping over something *really* high or throwing something *really* heavy? Why on earth would I want to do that? There is as much overlap between that and what I do as there is between Rory Best and Jill from Accounts when she does tag rugby at lunchtime...


[edit]

Just had a thought. At least we can all agree that we are all better than triathletes, right!?!

😀😀 Is there a prize for humorous post of the year ??

Wild Garlic

Amadeus 2014 wrote: »

Wow, time for this debate again already!

dna pretty much nailed it by calling out that there are two different sports, though I'd split them slightly differently.

There is Road Racing. There is Track and Field. They have as much in common as Tag Rugby and Rugby.

In order to progress - and often even to compete - in Track and Field you must be in a club. They have the facilities, they have the coaching, they control entry to the events.

In order to take part - or compete - in Road Racing all you have to do is pay your entry fee. To train all you need are a pair of runners. No special facilities, no fancy equipment. No coaching. All of these things can help but are optional extras, there are no barriers to entry.

The confusion arises because some clubs cater for both types of runner and / or clubs organise road races. This generates overlap between the two sports (and spawns the mutant offspring XC *shudder*). But it doesn't make the two sports one. And for some unknown reason the Track and Field lobby feel the need to evangelicise to all of us Road Runners about clubs and the vast benefits we would get from joining. And like atheists when the Mormons come knocking we nod politely, maybe take a leaflet and then carry on as we were...

Of course in many cases people can be passionate about Road Racing; we compete, volunteer or support local events and watch the big events (London or the Olympic marathon) on TV. But watching some lycra clad loon ponce around a track for a handfull of seconds? Or worse take turns at jumping over something *really* high or throwing something *really* heavy? Why on earth would I want to do that? There is as much overlap between that and what I do as there is between Rory Best and Jill from Accounts when she does tag rugby at lunchtime...


[edit]

Just had a thought. At least we can all agree that we are all better than triathletes, right!?!

Love it!

Sacksian

Amadeus 2014 wrote: »

snip!

I think you might have missed dna's point (or at least my interpretation of it). I think he was saying that competitive and recreational running are separate activities, not that track running and road running are separate sports. The distinction is between doing it just for fun or doing it as a sport. Road and track running are very much the same sport. The best road runners are generally pretty accomplished on the track and country.