Interesting thread on introducing firearms to children

ezra_

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057651974

Over in the legal discussion forum.

I'm assuming that deactivated firearms don't have the minimum age for 'use' requirement?

Sparks

That assumption is incorrect but so far as I know has not been tested in court.
A deactivated firearm is legally still governed by the firearms act, it just has dispensation to have a simpler form of permission (a letter from your local Super) than an active firearm does (and lower mandatory requirements for storage and other such controls as well). If you handle one outside of an area covered by sections 2(3) or 2(4) and don't have a licence (and age is not a consideration in the law from what I can tell), then you're in violation of the Act. It doesn't come up much because there's a defined procedure for this sort of thing - you get a 2(5) for a publlc event and you're done. Things like insurance are a lot harder to sort out really.

Cass

Not going to bother posting on the thread as it'll only be moved, shut down, etc. but AK47! What is that about?

Sparks

I kindof assumed that was someone's (rather revealing) shorthand for "gun, unknown kind".

ezra_

Sparks wrote: »

I kindof assumed that was someone's (rather revealing) shorthand for "gun, unknown kind".

Ah, you mean a journalist?

I was actually pleased by the tone of the thread - very little hysterics and quite a bit of support for firearms

Sparks

#NotAllJournalists

Grolschevik

Cass wrote:

Not going to bother posting on the thread as it'll only be moved, shut down, etc. but AK47! What is that about?

There were decommissioned AKs on display in the (I think it was called) 'Story of Ireland' historical exhibition relatively recently. Could have been something similar/related.

Cass

Sparks wrote: »

I kindof assumed that was someone's (rather revealing) shorthand for "gun, unknown kind".

IOW:

Grolschevik wrote: »

There were decommissioned AKs on display in the (I think it was called) 'Story of Ireland' historical exhibition relatively recently. Could have been something similar/related.

I'm by no means a history buff but when did we use AK47's?

Grolschevik

Cass wrote: »

IOW:

I'm by no means a history buff but when did we use AK47's?

They were decommissioned IRA guns. They were supposed to be a tangible representation of a particular period in modern Irish history.

Edit: "A history of Ireland in 100 objects"; National Museum thing: http://www.thejournal.ie/100-objects-ireland-symbols-665586-Nov2012/

Cass

What is the point of that?

"Hey kids, these are illegal firearms, you'll never see or own one, but here have a feel".

Sparks

So, I would have expected that at least it would have been an AKM given the timeframe you're talking about, but even then, the phrase you'd expect to see on such an exhibit would have been talking about Armalites, not AKMs...

...but more than that, I'm now wondering where the boundary of "shooting sports" is from here...

Grolschevik

Cass wrote: »

What is the point of that?

"Hey kids, these are illegal firearms, you'll never see or own one, but here have a feel".

Don't know if they even got to touch in the exhibit I mentioned, but I just mentioned it as a possibly related "educational experience" to what the OP in the Legal Discussion thread might be on about.

I think I recall a thread in the last couple of years, either in this forum or in Teaching and Lecturing, about the legalities of bringing a decommissioned firearm to a lecture so the audience (of kids) could have an oul' feel.

cavan shooter

in general terms its a funny one...i.e "introducing fireams to children"

It really depends if you were brought up around them in any fashion. My brothers lads have been over on numerous occasions and seen my firearms and if I'm honest...(arrest me now) Ive let them look through the scope on the 22....Now if there Mother is there she kind of freaks out...ye know...just like as if the kids are going to start shooting up the place..but im not sure whether its me or the guns. If i think back when I was a kid..I had a similar interest.

My lads all come shooting with me you nab them at around 10 as I did and with NARGC fund membership now open for 10 years up, its a great way to get them interested. Just to be clear they cant handle a firearm or do the proficiency course till they are 14 and in Fairness the Fund Administrator is kind tight on that one.

Sparks

It's just not a widespread tradition here anymore (though at one point it was as large as the GAA today). 30 years of the troubles probably had a lot to do with that.
Mind you, I have very vivid memories of a CBS brother teaching us all at age eight or so, how to relocate our dislocated fingers if we caught a football wrong, and how best to get the elbow into the other guy when the ref wasn't looking, so when it's my lad's turn, I'd be happy to have him take up air rifle shooting in a heartbeat but I wouldn't like him left anywhere near the GAA.
*shrug*
Different parents do things differently I guess. So long as the kids aren't being actually abused, you just have to let them get on with it.

PSXDupe

I agree, it all depends on the environment they are in.

I live in the countryside and the chances of my kids going to friends houses and seeing a shotgun is quite high as a lot of their friends come from farming backgrounds and a shotgun is a tool for many farmers.

I would rather my kids know what firearms are all about and how serious they are than to every run the risk that they would want to mess about with one out of curiosity.

I have my lads at the range, the youngest help with cleaning the rifles etc, He's even sat in on a firearms safety course. At this stage he know the in and outs of them and knows how to handle them safely. I know that by reinforcing all aspects of firearm safety he will always handle them with great care.

meathstevie

In my opinion children can't be educated young enough about firearms safety and safe handling if they're likely to come into contact with firearms as every child in a household with a hunter or target shooter will.

yubabill1

Sparks wrote: »

It's just not a widespread tradition here anymore (though at one point it was as large as the GAA today). 30 years of the troubles probably had a lot to do with that.

Personally, I think the rise of drug gangs and associated violence following the peace process did more harm to shooting sports than the Troubles.

Accompanying my father and on my own licence after '83, I shot before, during and after the Troubles. While I agree the 1972 "temporary" firearms confiscation (income tax was also a temporary introduction) was the largest single blow to shooting sports here, attitudes to shooting have changed since the '90's IMHO.

I mean, about 2 years ago, my shooting buddy and I talked to a new security guard (not a young guy) in a hut beside one of our permissions - a Dublin guy, he was literally shaking at the thoughts of someone shooting and we had the .22 in the boot.

tac foley

meathstevie wrote: »

In my opinion children can't be educated young enough about firearms safety and safe handling if they're likely to come into contact with firearms as every child in a household with a hunter or target shooter will.

I'd temper that by waiting until the child concerned has reached an age of reason where a father's words are not only listened to, but obeyed. Children should be aware that guns are not to be touched, and that finding one should be a matter of leaving it alone and going to get an adult to handle it.

On the other paw, it is incumbent on the parent to ensure that the child's exposure to firearms only takes place when he, the father, is there to manage them. That is not difficult in the environs of our homes, where guns have to be locked away when not in use. Our daughter and later granddaughter have been brought up with the sight of me cleaning guns after a session on the range, and think little of it. Our daughter, who is severely disabled, could not shoot even if she had ever wanted to, but because our 11-y/o granddaughter is totally normal in every way, and she has recently expressed an interest in learning to shoot, having gotten dolls out of her system pretty early. Over here children as young as eight can be allowed to shoot a live firearm under one-to-one supervision at all times, of course. Right now it's my collection of Lego Technic models that has her main interest, as well as her own growing collection. She has had the rules of safe gun handling reiterated on every occasion that I am handling/cleaning guns in her presence, and right now she is learning to shoot with a couple of airsoft handguns. Since they exactly replicate the real thing, they are always treated exactly like a live firearm would be in every respect, so that when she eventually gets to shoot the real thing, handgun or rifle/carbine, the instilled learning process regarding safety drills is automatic. She tells ME the rules, every time she picks up a gun, and I have no doubt that if she ever came across a gun somewhere outside the home, that she would do the right thing concerning it and tell an adult.

I first got to shoot at age six, with my dad's huge paws wrapped firmly around mine, and the gun was one of his Colt M1911s. I was instantly hooked, and sixty-four years later nothing has persuaded me to change my mind that shooting as a sport is incomparable, unless you can combine it with another sport, like ski-ing. For those who live where such a sport is possible, there can be few sports that are better for you.

tac

Grizzly 45

Sheesh!! I guess my folks would have been locked up for child abuse or negligence by today's standards a long time ago then:D. My dad kept his two guns loaded and on a rack in the living room of our house and after I touched one of them ONCE! I spent the next week standing rather than sitting as my ass was so sore from the whuppin I got for that mistake. By my 10th birthday,[40 years ago this year]I had learned how to use his .22 and just about every other gun we had in Germany during the Summer holidays.Everything from air rifles up to a 416 weatherby,and by that stage he decided I was mature and responsible enough to have my own .410 shotgun and keep it with the ammo in my bed room.Was no end of amazement to my friends ,that I had a REAL gun and that I was allowed go off hunting by myself with it too..

When I was 16 I got a evening job culling feral piegons over in one of the feed houses in the Dock road.Talked to my principle and asked if I could store gun and ammo and hunting kit in his office during school time on Friday.Not only did he agree whole heartedly,he also wanted a brace for his dinner on Monday and a few more for the school biology lab lessons.

Guess Ireland was a tad different 30/40 years ago too.A bit more easy going for one thing.:rolleyes:

Sparks

You know, the older I get, the more I hate this phrase and its variants:

Guess Ireland was a tad different 30/40 years ago too.A bit more easy going for one thing.

Indeed. As shown by the Ryan report, the Ferns report, the Laundries, the Industrial Schools, the Mother and Baby homes and a few dozen other examples of life being "easy going", including that one where the under-fives mortality rate in the 1970s was literally ten times what it is today.

I might not agree with every foible of modern life, but if it's a choice between vegan tofu tacos in hipster popup coffeeshops with a penny-farthing bicycle theme, and kids having their arms broken more than once by the same teacher with impunity, I think I'll take annoying over horrific.

Nekarsulm

Self taught here
There was always a single barrel shotgun belonging to the grandfather in the house, an Ivor Johnston hammer gun.
My father had no interest in it, but by the age of 12 I was smuggling it out of the house and dis-assembling it and cleaning it etc.
Found a box of cardboard cased Alphamax cartridges, and the scene was set!
Having been warned about guns "breaking your shoulder" etc, I took the cautious approach of tying it to a tree, aimed at a clump of thistles, with a string to the trigger.
Retreated and pulled the string. It cut a very satisfying swath through the thistles, and hadn't exploded in the process, so I considered it safe to shoot with.
Would have got "the ash plant" if caught!

Grizzly 45

Sparks wrote: »

You know, the older I get, the more I hate this phrase and its variants:



Indeed. As shown by the Ryan report, the Ferns report, the Laundries, the Industrial Schools, the Mother and Baby homes and a few dozen other examples of life being "easy going", including that one where the under-fives mortality rate in the 1970s was literally ten times what it is today.

I might not agree with every foible of modern life, but if it's a choice between vegan tofu tacos in hipster popup coffeeshops with a penny-farthing bicycle theme, and kids having their arms broken more than once by the same teacher with impunity, I think I'll take annoying over horrific.

No question about that at all.There is certainly a very dark side to life back then.But OTOH did people feel the need to go absolutely ape if their kids came home with head lice,or were drinking out of the communal school yard tap with 150 others,or came home with skinned knees ,knuckles and a shiner from a school yard fight,that they weren't immediately reaching for the lawyer or counsellor?
When I think of some of the stuff that is illegal,banned,or whatever else back then.I'm amazed anyone from the 60s survived by to days standards.
Not trying to say it was all sunshine and lolly pops back then,but there was abit more of a live and let live attitude in society in certain things, and a lot more trust somehow in our kids not to be total and utter idiots about things.
Just my 2 c on it

meathstevie

tac foley wrote: »

I'd temper that by waiting until the child concerned has reached an age of reason where a father's words are not only listened to, but obeyed. Children should be aware that guns are not to be touched, and that finding one should be a matter of leaving it alone and going to get an adult to handle it.

On the other paw, it is incumbent on the parent to ensure that the child's exposure to firearms only takes place when he, the father, is there to manage them. That is not difficult in the environs of our homes, where guns have to be locked away when not in use. Our daughter and later granddaughter have been brought up with the sight of me cleaning guns after a session on the range, and think little of it. Our daughter, who is severely disabled, could not shoot even if she had ever wanted to, but because our 11-y/o granddaughter is totally normal in every way, and she has recently expressed an interest in learning to shoot, having gotten dolls out of her system pretty early. Over here children as young as eight can be allowed to shoot a live firearm under one-to-one supervision at all times, of course. Right now it's my collection of Lego Technic models that has her main interest, as well as her own growing collection. She has had the rules of safe gun handling reiterated on every occasion that I am handling/cleaning guns in her presence, and right now she is learning to shoot with a couple of airsoft handguns. Since they exactly replicate the real thing, they are always treated exactly like a live firearm would be in every respect, so that when she eventually gets to shoot the real thing, handgun or rifle/carbine, the instilled learning process regarding safety drills is automatic. She tells ME the rules, every time she picks up a gun, and I have no doubt that if she ever came across a gun somewhere outside the home, that she would do the right thing concerning it and tell an adult.

I first got to shoot at age six, with my dad's huge paws wrapped firmly around mine, and the gun was one of his Colt M1911s. I was instantly hooked, and sixty-four years later nothing has persuaded me to change my mind that shooting as a sport is incomparable, unless you can combine it with another sport, like ski-ing. For those who live where such a sport is possible, there can be few sports that are better for you.

tac

A slightly more elaborate version of what I wanted to say

long range shooter

Cass wrote: »

What is the point of that?

"Hey kids, these are illegal firearms, you'll never see or own one, but here have a feel".

more like this:D

judestynes

The INTO do run a programme called heritage in schools. I was one of these heritage specialists for a while. The response from students was always positive the feedback from principals was good also. Most of the schools and libraries I visited were in rural area's so firearms weren't completely alien to the youngsters. The 1 thing that did kind of bug me was the lasck of supervision from teachers. The presentation could be to 2 or even 3 classes with only 1 teacher present so when the students are invited up to look at the exhibits theres a melee almost so trying to keep order is a task but by and large they all follow the rules I lay out at the start. Military shows are a different affair as the family days out so if anyone has a problem with the children being exposed to firearms then they just wouldn't go.