Poll: would you vote to "re-peel da ate"

steddyeddy

Ireland is a country which historically has not treated mothers or pregnant women with the best intentions. A close relative of mine was "sent sown the county" when she was a child (the laundries) and while she never talked about what happened it effected her all her life. I feel strongly we have done enough to moralise over other people's actions. People don't take abortions lightly, they don't get them for bad reasons and a lot of people get them because they feel they have no other choice.

Some of the more religious people say that they care for the life of the child that could have been. I have a feeling that a lot of these people don't do a lot for the children that have been born to mothers or families that couldn't;t raise them.

For this reason I would vote to repeal the eight. What way would you vote?

Noveight

No

Absolutely repeal it. Who are we to take the moral high ground and control a woman's choices as regards to her own body? This country took a positive step in removing itself from the grasp of religion with the same sex marriage vote, time to take another one.

Get it sorted, Ireland.

osarusan

Public poll might not be the best idea if you want to get an accurate tally, even for AH.

Jesus.

I've only ever heard women interested in this topic. Don't think blokes give a sh1t tbh (generally speaking).

No

I know a lot of men who care about the 8th amendment (on both sides) but a lot are afraid to say so because they're not sure they're entitled to an opinion.

steddyeddy

No

I'm a bloke and like everyone I'm entitled to freedom of expression about a legislation that is about personal freedoms.

The Backwards Man

I wouldn't vote at all if the result was public.

steddyeddy

No

The Backwards Man wrote: »

I wouldn't vote at all if the result was public.

I made it public in this case because my views were public.

mansize

No

Surely people can stand over their choice?

Any people have a right to choose and have that choice respected by all sides

steddyeddy

No

osarusan wrote: »

Public poll might not be the best idea if you want to get an accurate tally, even for AH.

Maybe not O but people passionate about their answer shouldn't have a problem with making their views known. I would love to know how many of each camp there is.

hairyslug

No

I think the main deciding factor will be what it will be replaced with.
There will be hardliners on both sides that will say yes or no no matter what but I think there are more in the middle whose vote will depend on the likes of duration/FFA etc

vicwatson

I would vote

ZeitgeistGlee

No

It should be repealed simply on the basis it's not something that belongs in the constitution to begin with. Any opinions on how we should legislate for the aftermath are another discussion.

Junkyard Tom

Ah sure, you know yourself now. At the end of the day you have to let people be people. When it comes to matters of the conscience you have to let what will be will be. We're all human beings at the end of the day.

The Backwards Man

steddyeddy wrote: »

Maybe not O but people passionate about their answer shouldn't have a problem with making their views known. I would love to know how many of each camp there is.

If you only want passionate voters the turnout will be very low.

MintyMagnum

My brother & I were adopted, as were 2 of our cousins. My best friend in primary school & my best friend in secondary were both adopted. 4 of my work colleagues were adopted and one of my exes.

So I have mixed feelings about 'abortion on demand' considering myself and ten other people I know closely would probably not be alive today if it was available here when we were conceived.

KKkitty

No

My mother was one of the countless women who were sent away because she became pregnant with a child outside of marriage. She had my oldest brother in a home and never saw him again. He could still be alive I don't know but even though she would never have had an abortion the fundamental right to any woman who wants one should not be taken away from her. Who are we as a nation to decide whether a woman in a crisis pregnancy situation should be forced to have an unwanted child because she can't make the trip over the water or wherever to have that procedure. It's not fair to expect any female to go on a plane or boat to end a pregnancy when it should happen here. There are many reasons to end a pregnancy but it should be a service readily available in the woman's own country wherever that may be.

vicwatson

MintyMagnum wrote: »

My brother & I were adopted, as were 2 of our cousins. My best friend in primary school & my best friend in secondary were both adopted. 4 of my work colleagues were adopted and one of my exes.

So I have mixed feelings about 'abortion on demand' considering myself and ten other people I know closely would probably not be alive today if it was available here when we were conceived.

Nothing to do with the OP's question

MintyMagnum

vicwatson wrote: »

Nothing to do with the OP's question

OP asked would I repeal 8th, I answered, based on my own circumstances & those of others I know, that I have mixed feelings on the issue.

Hope that has clarified things for you.

vicwatson

MintyMagnum wrote: »

OP asked would I repeal 8th, I answered, based on my own circumstances & those of others I know, that I have mixed feelings on the issue.

Hope that has clarified things for you.

Thanks for that, I took it that the op was wondering if we would vote, period

Referenda historically have poor turn outs

steddyeddy

No

86% of people would vote yes.

ethical

It should be an individuals private choice whether they wish to kill someone defenceless or not............

Samaris

No

Yes, I would vote to repeal the Eighth, I don't believe it has a place in the Constitution.

I don't know that I'd want the vote to happen right now though. While I think the same-sex marriage referendum had a good result (I know a large chunk of the country wouldn't agree, so imo, it did!), it was a bitter and divisive campaign, and I know there would be at -least- the same level of hate and viciousness and indeed downright lies going around for months. "It would be abortion on demand!" A picture of an adorable, big-eyed baby with the caption "Why did you murder me, mammy?" Appeals to the slippery slope fallacy where newborns could be smothered because the mother cba looking after it.

It would be a nasty campaign, and I think Ireland is still too divided in the same polarising way that the rest of the country is to want to do it right now and add more wounds to the national psyche.

Having said that, I don't know if that's a good enough reason to put more women in the meantime through the same ordeal. I suspect it probably isn't, and no freedom worth having would be won without a bitter and divisive campaign no matter when we have it.

As for repealing the Eight, I'm pretty okay with Amendments 1-7.

Teyla Emmagan

It's the eighth not the eight.

Repeal the fcuk out of it.

eviltwin

No

The 8th is about more than just abortion.

It's affecting the care given to every single pregnant woman in Ireland and her options during pregnancy and labour.

It needs to be consigned to history.

suicide_circus

I saw a girl wearing a REPEAL sweater and an OBEY hat.

The end is nigh.

arybvtcw0eolkf

No

MintyMagnum wrote: »

My brother & I were adopted, as were 2 of our cousins. My best friend in primary school & my best friend in secondary were both adopted. 4 of my work colleagues were adopted and one of my exes.

So I have mixed feelings about 'abortion on demand' considering myself and ten other people I know closely would probably not be alive today if it was available here when we were conceived.

I remember before homosexuality was legal here my grandfather saying 'I don't mind if they make it legal, once they don't make it compulsory'..

Well same for the 8th.. Voting to give women rights over their own choices/bodies won't make abortion compulsory.

YES from me.

Outlaw Pete

I will.. but if the beginnings of this campaign are anything to go by then I can see a lot of people voting 'No' in reaction to how it is being framed. Already as part of the campaign we've seen remarks like "It's a Woman's Body", "Stop Letting 'Old Men' Decide What Women Should Do With Their Bodies", "A stethoscope is a crucifix on your belly", "The laws of the church have no place on your flesh", "A veterinarian will abort a calf if a cow is falling ill, how is it that livestock is worth more to this land than us?" etc etc.

That kind of nonsense is cringingly sanctimonious and extremely disingenuous, not least because we already have the Protection of Life During Pregnancy Act which means abortions are legal in cases where there is a risk to the life of the mother (including suicide) and so to suggest that Ireland cares more for pregnant cattle than it does for pregnant women, well, it's just really yet more martyrdom quite frankly. Today I even seen one woman childishly tweeting Enda Kenny asking him if it was okay if she used Haemorrhoid Cream.

People are already weary enough after the revelations in recent times that politicians are more than happy to mislead the electorate with regards to where new abortion legislation is likely to lead and so couple that with repealing the 8th being framed in such a dishonest and exclusionary fashion, and it really could just ultimately turn a lot of 'Yes' voters into 'No' voters. Which is a shame as new clearer abortion laws are undoubtedly needed, particularly with regard to certain serious fetal abnormalities.

utyh2ikcq9z76b

Would love to see some extra legislation attached to give men rights over their choices as well, a so called male abortion/opt out phase,were they can legally state they don't want the child and from then aren't financially or any other way obligated.Then its up to the mother what she wants to do. In an equal society this is what we need, why should the mother be able to choose if a man will be obligated because she had the child(he has no choice) or if she will have an abortion (he still has no choice).

Sweden has already started discussing this politically
https://www.rt.com/news/334720-legal-male-abortion-sweden/

Mint Sauce

No

Deleted User wrote: »

I know a lot of men who care about the 8th amendment (on both sides) but a lot are afraid to say so because they're not sure they're entitled to an opinion.

I am a bloke and I am certainly entittled to an opinion, could be my wife, girl friend, daughter, sister etc. Although even if you present this arguement to some females, sorry girls, they will still argue, its their body, nothing to do with the fella.

I certainly do think it should be repealed, whilst I do not support abortion for the sake of it, it shoukd be there if there is a risk to the life of the unborn or mother. Religion should have no place in it.

jaja321

No

Yes. The constitution is no place to deal with this issue. It's a shame Mary Robinson was not listened to when she outlined the damage the 8th amendment would do to women across this country. She was totally right.

Crea

No

Yes from me.
My sister was 30 weeks pregnant when she found out that her baby had a fatal foetal abnormality. She didn't want to have an abortion but did want an early induction as this was the only way she could have given birth to a live baby and get to spend a few precious minutes with her child. The doctors wouldn't touch her as it is against the law. So she kept going with the pregnancy hoping against hope that baby would live to full term but sadly he died at 37.5 weeks and she had to endure a stillbirth. It was barbaric.

Samaris

No

Crea wrote: »

Yes from me.
My sister was 30 weeks pregnant when she found out that her baby had a fatal foetal abnormality. She didn't want to have an abortion but did want an early induction as this was the only way she could have given birth to a live baby and get to spend a few precious minutes with her child. The doctors wouldn't touch her as it is against the law. So she kept going with the pregnancy hoping against hope that baby would live to full term but sadly he died at 37.5 weeks and she had to endure a stillbirth. It was barbaric.

That is a tragic situation and I hope your sister has been able to recover from it. I don't know that the Eighth would have made much difference to it, given it was an early induction (that would have resulted in the baby's death, but that was inevitable anyway), but it does show that there are other things that also need working on as well as just the abortion/no abortion question. There needs to be a lot more discussion about pregnancy and all the associated issues that can and do arise around it, rather than just bringing it down to the Eighth specifically. I suppose it's a good place to start though.

Repeal? No
Replace? Yes

The lawyer Conor O'Mahony has said that repeal is not as simple as the catchy soundbite suggests.

http://constitutionproject.ie/?p=380

Thus, it is entirely within the bounds of possibility that the repeal of the Eighth Amendment, without any substitution of an alternative provision, would leave the constitutional right to life of the unborn intact. What would have changed is that there would no longer be an express reference to the “equal right to life of the mother”

Aidan Holland

Yes. I would repeal it and have no issue with abortion whatsoever. I think we should adopt the system that they have in the uk except for one thing. Abortion is free on the NHS and with all things free there are open to abuse like women having 11 or 12 abortions.

RobertKK

What would replace the 8th amendment?

To simply remove it, I would vote no, given I don't know what would be allowed with it removed.

rainbow kirby

No

eviltwin wrote: »

The 8th is about more than just abortion.

It's affecting the care given to every single pregnant woman in Ireland and her options during pregnancy and labour.

It needs to be consigned to history.

^ This.

It's been in the constitution for 33 years too long.

Outlaw Pete

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

Repeal? No
Replace? Yes

Absolutely but as far as I'm aware, it needs to be repealed first in order to be replaced and so on that basis I would vote to repeal. In the same way Sections 58 and 59 of Offences Against the Person Act were repealed a few years back to make way for the newer Protection of Life During Pregnancy Act.

TDs were asked the question a couple of months ago and some said similar:

"I am opposed to repealing the Eighth Amendment for many reasons … such an action would be wholly disproportionate and would remove the last vestiges of constitutional protection for the life of the unborn child. A major concern here is that in all the talk of removing the Eighth Amendment, there has been a complete absence of any proposed mechanism to even acknowledge the life of the unborn child – a human person – at the constitutional level" - Mattie McGrath

”I think we need a sense of what would be proposed to be put in place of the existing constitutional provision.” - John Lahart

It very much depends on what is proposed to replace the amendment.” - Alan Farrell,

"The question of whether or not to repeal the Eighth Amendment is not one with a simple yes or no answer. Those who advocate its repeal have not presented any proposal on what it would be replaced with" - Micheál Martin

“I’ve no problem with it being repealed but it needs to replaced something else that protects [the] unborn” - Pat Casey

You can read the rest of the responses here.

El_Duderino 09

No

Jesus. wrote:

I've only ever heard women interested in this topic. Don't think blokes give a sh1t tbh (generally speaking).

That might be true for you but not for me. The lads I talk to would almost all be In favour of repealing the 8th. Social circles I suppose.

marienbad

No

RobertKK wrote: »

What would replace the 8th amendment?

To simply remove it, I would vote no, given I don't know what would be allowed with it removed.

As far as I am aware abortion was already illegal before the 8th . The constitutional change at that time was simply an older generation, aware of demographic changes , trying to tie future generations to a specific ethos.

Does repealing the 8th not return us to the status quo ante bellum ,so to speak ?

Outlaw Pete

Outlaw Pete wrote: »

Absolutely but as far as I'm aware, it needs to be repealed first in order to be replaced and so on that basis I would vote to repeal.

I suspect we'd do the two in one referendum.

E.g.

"It is proposed to delete Article 40.3.3 of the Constitution and to insert in its place the following : [...]"

I'd vote for almost any kind of liberalisation, but I think the present campaign is just too vague on what they're suggesting as a replacement.

mzungu

Outlaw Pete wrote: »

I will.. but if the beginnings of this campaign are anything to go by then I can see a lot of people voting 'No' in reaction to how it is being framed. Already as part of the campaign we've seen remarks like "It's a Woman's Body", "Stop Letting 'Old Men' Decide What Women Should Do With Their Bodies", "A stethoscope is a crucifix on your belly", "The laws of the church have no place on your flesh", "A veterinarian will abort a calf if a cow is falling ill, how is it that livestock is worth more to this land than us?" etc etc.

That kind of nonsense is cringingly sanctimonious and extremely disingenuous, not least because we already have the Protection of Life During Pregnancy Act which means abortions are legal in cases where there is a risk to the life of the mother (including suicide) and so to suggest that Ireland cares more for pregnant cattle than it does for pregnant women, well, it's just really yet more martyrdom quite frankly. Today I even seen one woman childishly tweeting Enda Kenny asking him if it was okay if she used Haemorrhoid Cream.

People are already weary enough after the revelations in recent times that politicians are more than happy to mislead the electorate with regards to where new abortion legislation is likely to lead and so couple that with repealing the 8th being framed in such a dishonest and exclusionary fashion, and it really could just ultimately turn a lot of 'Yes' voters into 'No' voters. Which is a shame as new clearer abortion laws are undoubtedly needed, particularly with regard to certain serious fetal abnormalities.

I agree there. The Repeal side are really shooting themselves in the foot so far. If they keep that up they better hope there won't be a referendum in the near future, as they won't stand a chance of winning. Throwing out slurs on Twitter and in various newspaper opinion pieces does them no favours when it comes to getting those on the fence to come onside. They are doing all the work for the pro-life camp so far.

RobertKK

marienbad wrote: »

As far as I am aware abortion was already illegal before the 8th . The constitutional change at that time was simply an older generation, aware of demographic changes , trying to tie future generations to a specific ethos.

Does repealing the 8th not return us to the status quo ante bellum ,so to speak ?

It would leave the government of the day open to change abortion law given their stance on it.

marienbad

No

RobertKK wrote: »

It would leave the government of the day open to change abortion law given their stance on it.

Exactly , and there was never any danger of an Irish government making abortion in any way accessible .

But after 30 years of debate any stigma has continuously been eroded , so in effect the amendment was counter productive .

It is now only a matter of time until we are like the rest of Europe . People are tired of the hypocrisy ,word games , medical/legal cock ups

Outlaw Pete

mzungu wrote: »

They are doing all the work for the pro-life camp so far.

Indeed and even in debates the Pro Choice side (after they stop talking about how women should be able to do what they want with 'their bodies' and how Catholic Ireland is to blame) don't even know the figures that they should well know.

On Vincent Browne, for example, Ruth Coppinger TD seemed to not have a clue what she was talking about with regards to abortion and Down Syndrome and despite her constantly saying that what Cora Sherlock was saying was untrue, as it happened it was in fact she who was giving out stats which The Journal said was "Mostly FALSE".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TX-tBQrI8QI

RobertKK

marienbad wrote: »

Exactly , and there was never any danger of an Irish government making abortion in any way accessible .

But after 30 years of debate any stigma has continuously been eroded , so in effect the amendment was counter productive .

It is now only a matter of time until we are like the rest of Europe . People are tired of the hypocrisy ,word games , medical/legal cock ups

The problem then is, in removing the 8th amendment one would be placing trust in present but also future governments, and I would argue a lot of people don't trust government in general.

El_Duderino 09

No

RobertKK wrote:

The problem then is, in removing the 8th amendment one would be placing trust in present but also future governments, and I would argue a lot of people don't trust government in general.

I generally do trust the government to do a decent job. But with something like this you have to look at voter demographics.

The voters in the gay marriage referendum were an exceptional bunch. They didn't turn out again in the general election. The government would have to keep the older and more conservative people in mind when passing legislation on abortion. The electorate could pass further reaching replacement legislation than the government could.

I would trust the electorate to come out and support repeal the 8th.

marienbad

No

RobertKK wrote: »

The problem then is, in removing the 8th amendment one would be placing trust in present but also future governments, and I would argue a lot of people don't trust government in general.

If that is the problem , and I don't necessarily agree that it is , then solve that problem ,

Not use the constitution for issues it is not capable of handling .

Dick phelan

Depends on what will replace it, i support abortion up to very early stages, say 12 weeks, after that i think unless the baby has a FFA it should not be allowed, i think the abortion laws in Canada, UK are frankly barbaric, to allow a perfectly healthy 20 + week old baby to be aborted is horrible imo, there is a nasty side to abortion which the pro choice side will never discuss, it's all about the women's choice, her body ect but when something is capable of living outside the womb which babies of 20 + weeks have it is unjustifiable to take it's life just because it doesn't suit the mother.

mailforkev

No

So-called "moral" issues like this have no place in a written constitution. They're issues that legislation should be taking care of. Legislation can change with the times much more easily.

So if we do manage to get the 8th amendment overturned, the last thing we need is replacement text inserted. We need proposed legislation instead.

PucaMama

No, because I do not trust our government to replace it with something acceptable. I believe they would just replace it with whatever got them the most votes in the next election.