Licence round limit question

SpannerMonkey

Apologies if this has been asked before but can you appeal the round limit you were given on your licence . I renewed recently and my limit was reduced from 700 to 250 for my shotgun and even to get that i had to attach a letter to my application stating why i needed more than 100. I do a lot of clay shooting . I could go through 300 or more rounds in a single day so 250 isnt practical for me . The weird thing is i was given a round limit of 500 for my rifle which i very rarely use . I wouldnt use 500 rounds in that over 2 years

Is there a way i can appeal this or an i just stuck with 250.

Luckysasha

Correct me if I'm wrong but the round limit doesn't apply for shooting at a range. The limit is purely the amount you have in your possession if your local FO calls out to do an inspection. In other words you could buy 500 rounds and shoot 250 at clays and bring the remaining 250 home with you and still be within the law.

Cass

SpannerMonkey wrote: »

Is there a way i can appeal this or an i just stuck with 250.

Yes. Start with a letter to your FO/Super (both). Outline the reasons why you need the higher limit, and explain you had a higher limit which was reduced. I usually write something like:

Re: Section 4.1 - I request the maximum rounds of ammunition on my license be increased to (insert amount) for the following reasons:

1. Empty (fired) casings are treated the same as live rounds as per the Firearms Act, 1925 where it states that "ammunition for a firearm is any ingredient or component part of any such ammunition", with component part being the bullet, the casing, the propellant or the primer. So my license must allow me to have a high enough limit to have both live and fired rounds in my possession.
2. I regularly take part in target competitions and actively attend shoots for practice. As a result of this I can go through a large quantity of rounds in a short period of time.
3. The need for not only clay suitable rounds but also hunting suitable rounds. These two types of cartridges are a necessity plus when empties are combined with the live rounds of both types i can easily exceed the low limit on my license.
4. Buying bulk rounds of ammunition to reduce trips to dealer and for cost implications. Distance to dealer being excessive & inconvenient.
5. Being able to buy bulk quantities of the same ammo while it is available.

The Commissioner's Guidelines are the biggest thorn in the side of shooting sports because they are used as law. They're not. They are guidelines based on the best practical application of the firearms acts.

The amounts listed on the Guidelines are minimum amounts and the actual amount is entirely at the issuing persons (Super) discretion. Be polite yet firm, and see what comes from it.

clivej

It is illegal to have in your possession 'component parts' of a bullet.
So no empty cases in any form.

Cass

No its not.

If it were, as soon as you fired a round you'd be breaking the law by having the empty case.

You may have empty cases and bullet heads. They are covered under your license, but the propellant and primer are not.

arrowloopboy

Have any of ye every been checked/or know anyone that was ever checked/or heard of anyone ever been checked /this is just more bullsh1t ,1 round in the wrong hands is more dangerous that a pallet of shotty cartridges for clay shooting !

Cass

There have been a few cases over the years but most were people with ammo (live rounds) and no license, too much ammo for what is on their license and then one friend of mine that had two cases from a caliber he did not have a license for. When picking up his brass at the range he inadvertently picked up two cases that were not his.

Grizzly 45

Just for a point as well.The EU firearms directive stats that Minimum rounds per firearms liscense is 500 rounds!! Just a point worth note ing.

arrowloopboy

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Just for a point as well.The EU firearms directive stats that Minimum rounds per firearms liscense is 500 rounds!! Just a point worth note ing.

T

That would cost me over a grand :eek::D

Cass

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Just for a point as well.The EU firearms directive stats that Minimum rounds per firearms liscense is 500 rounds!! Just a point worth note ing.

For your Europeans firearms pass which is a passport and not a firearms license.

The firearms license dictates the mount of rounds and while your EFP allows for a minimum of 500 it cannot and does not supersede the Irish license.

SpannerMonkey

Cass wrote: »

No its not.

If it were, as soon as you fired a round you'd be breaking the law by having the empty case.

You may have empty cases and bullet heads. They are covered under your license, but the propellant and primer are not.

sorry guys im confused . if i have an allowance of 100 rounds and i have 100 empty cartridges does that mean i cant have any more live rounds in my possession ?

SpannerMonkey

i was going to add this in aswell what do you think ?



i would respectfully request that my limit be increased to the amounts in line with chapter 7 of The Garda Commissioner’s Guidelines as to the Practical Application and Operation of the Firearms Acts, 1925-2009. for clay shooting in an authorised range .

http://www.garda.ie/Documents/User/commissioners%20guidelines%20(as%20amended%2022nd%20oct)%20in%20relation%20to%20firearms%20licensing%5B1%5D.pdf

Excerpt from that chapter .

The type or category of shooting being conducted by the applicant will be a key
consideration when an issuing person is determining the amounts of ammunition to be
specified in the firearm certificate. The following ratio of ammunition to purpose could
be considered average:
• Farmer (one shotgun for vermin/pest control) – 100 rounds.
• Deer Gun – 200 to 260 rounds.
• Shotgun for clay pigeon, pheasant/pigeon/woodcock – 500 to 750 rounds.
• Target Shooter (member of authorised club) – 750 to 1,000 rounds.

RossiFan08

SpannerMonkey wrote: »

http://www.garda.ie/Documents/User/commissioners%20guidelines%20(as%20amended%2022nd%20oct)%20in%20relation%20to%20firearms%20licensing%5B1%5D.pdf

Excerpt from that chapter .

The type or category of shooting being conducted by the applicant will be a key
consideration when an issuing person is determining the amounts of ammunition to be
specified in the firearm certificate. The following ratio of ammunition to purpose could
be considered average:
• Farmer (one shotgun for vermin/pest control) – 100 rounds.
• Deer Gun – 200 to 260 rounds.
• Shotgun for clay pigeon, pheasant/pigeon/woodcock – 500 to 750 rounds.
• Target Shooter (member of authorised club) – 750 to 1,000 rounds.

Out of curiosity why does a deer gun have over double the limit when compared a firearm for vermin? You could go a full season and not even for a full box while deer stalking

Cass

SpannerMonkey wrote: »

sorry guys im confused . if i have an allowance of 100 rounds and i have 100 empty cartridges does that mean i cant have any more live rounds in my possession ?

Yes.

SpannerMonkey wrote: »

i was going to add this in aswell what do you think ?

I would mention the commissioner's guidelines, but not quote them. They are guidelines only. Stick with as much law as possible, and reference the guidelines to support your claim of a higher limit. So the four points i made above, and something like:

"In keeping the recommended amounts in the Commissioner's i request "XXX" amount of ammunition".

RossiFan08 wrote: »

Out of curiosity why does a deer gun have over double the limit when compared a firearm for vermin? You could go a full season and not even for a full box while deer stalking

The first one is a single shotgun. Usually for limited certs, but for any person with one shotgun that is not a member of a range, has the bare minimum of land permissions, etc.

The deer gun is not only for deer. It's more accurate to consider it as deer legal calibres. Also just because some people shoot 5 to 20 a year does not mean everyone does. Then people with range membership may do target practice, etc.

Nekarsulm

Ordered some Fiocchi F-Blacks the other day. I'm only licenced for 100, so its real pain as ideally I would buy 500 or so, to keep me going. And they seem to be only available sporadically so I suppose in a couple of weeks, none will be left in the country.

SpannerMonkey

ok so after using all those reasons i finally got a response and yayyy they have agreed to up the limit from 250 to ...............................................300 :mad:

seriously wtf i feel like they are trolling me

what do i do now this is ridiculous i went through more than that the last day i went shooting i had to buy them from the range

BattleCorp

SpannerMonkey wrote: »

ok so after using all those reasons i finally got a response and yayyy they have agreed to up the limit from 250 to ...............................................300 :mad:

seriously wtf i feel like they are trolling me

what do i do now this is ridiculous i went through more than that the last day i went shooting i had to buy them from the range

That is taking the mick alright. I think you may try to speak to the Super and explain your case to him/her and see if they will change it.

Nekarsulm

Or make sure you only keep 300 in your gun safe. So if you have an inspection, you are complying with the law.
Leave all empties at the range. (although, this being Ireland, this aspect of the law is completely ignored by the Gardai anyway)

Cass

How many did you request?

SpannerMonkey

Cass wrote: »

How many did you request?

1000

Cass

All you can do now is request an meeting and laid out how inadequate the allowance is, the fact that the limits on the Commissioner's guidelines are guidelines only, and then request the limit to be raised to a minimum of 1,000.

I'd request a meeting as said and not write in. Be persistent but polite. A letter can be ignored, you cannot.