6.6 kW charging

stesaurus

BoatMad wrote: »

all the triple heads can do dual AC DCV charging , no ?

Technically yes but I guess not turned on in the firmware for some. There's nowhere that it states it but when you go to try it while another car is charging it doesn't give any other charging options.
Maybe it's a supply issue in certain locations. AC & DC pulling over 40kw each might be too much?

cros13

KCross wrote: »

I suppose for a long term strategy it would be bad to allow 7kw charging on a rapid. It would just block up the rapid.

I guess what I was thinking was that if you came to a rapid that was out of order on the DC side and you were stuck for a charge it would be useful to connect to the AC side to get you enough juice to make it to the next rapid

In Germany, the law requires that a Type 2 AC charging point must be provided beside a DC rapid charger to allow emergency charging in the event the rapid is down. Many have interpreted this requirement as being fulfilled by the AC side on the triple head chargers provided it can be operated semi-independently of the DC side of the charger. Efacec markets the QC45 this way in Germany.

KCross wrote: »

Does it happen much that DC is out and AC is working or do these chargers tend to go completely offline when anything is wrong?

In my experience 70% of the time AC tends to be up when DC is down, especially on the efacecs where a lot of downtime is due to DC breaker or in the comms electronics for the DC side. The other 30% of the time it's backend comms issues, dead displays, dead RFID readers or power cut to the rapid entirely.

BoatMad wrote: »

you could with an adaptor cable

Afraid that doesn't appear to be the case, at least with the efacecs. Anyone I've seen try a Type 2 to Type 1 adapter with a rapid has failed. The efacec is a little finicky about the AC side and sees certain behaviors like a high initial draw from the charger or a short pause in charging as a signal to cut power. The i3 required a software update to allow charging on the efacecs and even now if you open any of the doors or unlock the car it cuts the charge.

BoatMad

Afraid that doesn't appear to be the case, at least with the efacecs. Anyone I've seen try a Type 2 to Type 1 adapter with a rapid has failed. The efacec is a little finicky about the AC side and sees certain behaviors like a high initial draw from the charger or a short pause in charging as a signal to cut power. The i3 required a software update to allow charging on the efacecs and even now if you open any of the doors or unlock the car it cuts the charge.

huh , type 2 AC is just the same as Type 1 ( for single phase ) with a different plug and one extra resistor !. The charger has no idea whats going in in the car

cros13

BoatMad wrote: »

huh , type 2 AC is just the same as Type 1 ( for single phase ) with a different plug and one extra resistor !. The charger has no idea whats going in in the car

The rapids seem not to just work off the pilot. They universally stop supplying power if the car stops taking power for any reason.
I'm not entirely sure but there may be some PLC involved as well.

BoatMad

cros13 wrote: »

The rapids seem not to just work off the pilot. They universally stop supplying power if the car stops taking power for any reason.
I'm not entirely sure but there may be some PLC involved as well.

hmm , firstly they must provide the pilot, end of story , after that all they can do is monitor current,

neither of these facts are determined by the type of connector on the lead. Type 1 and Type 2 are merely physical implementations of the same protocol
current monitoring is used as a safety interlock , so as to shut down the lead in the event of an unexpected break in the circuit , my own designed EVSE does the same thing

Scottie99

BoatMad wrote: »

With increasing range DC is the most way forward for public charging. Slow charging becomes irrelevant with high range.

Large AC chargers in the car are expensive heavy devices that are no use when the car is being used. It really makes no sense to carry charging equipment around with you and even less sense as we head towards the 100 kWh battery

Yesterday I was left in a pickle because the only DC was down in Enniskillen. The car and network has to be fit for purpose.

BoatMad

Scottie99 wrote: »

Yesterday I was left in a pickle because the only DC was down in Enniskillen. The car and network has to be fit for purpose.

indeed, but that does not detract from my essentially technical argument

over time we will see a major change in the makeup of public chargers, really the public charger network reflects EV technology as it was 5 years ago, not where it will be in 5 years.

we will see a steady progression to 100kwh batteries , with reductions in cost as more manufacturing efficiencies and market volume take hold.

that will reduce the need for localised charging , 100Kwh is about the maximum that practical to charge at home ( 32A EVSE , night rate period ) . hence most charging will be there and the FCP network will shrink to a smaller number of larger charge stations ( to handle the queuing ) and will be commercialised and I expect quite expensive ( probably all more then diesel ) .

I would expect that in future most domestic EVSEs , will in fact be DC, as the network will need to manage EV charging

Its far easier to maintain a reliable and effective " network" if you have multiple chargers , in few sites , and its easier to upgrade power and technology of this sites as well.

Destination charging will be limited to places where people over night , because short duration destination charging will be mostly unnecessary

In that scenario it makes no engineering sense, nor financial sense to load the car technically , weight wise and financially with a charger that fro an increasing percentage of the cars use , does absolutely nothing, you might as well be carrying bricks

The current FCP network is a deadend, chargers positioned in sites with either little physical room for expansion ( petrol stations ) , limited electrical power, or unsuitable for quick turnarounds ( shopping centres) . it will not last

KCross

BoatMad wrote: »

indeed, but that does not detract from my essentially technical argument

over time we will see a major change in the makeup of public chargers, really the public charger network reflects EV technology as it was 5 years ago, not where it will be in 5 years.

we will see a steady progression to 100kwh batteries , with reductions in cost as more manufacturing efficiencies and market volume take hold.

that will reduce the need for localised charging , 100Kwh is about the maximum that practical to charge at home ( 32A EVSE , night rate period ) . hence most charging will be there and the FCP network will shrink to a smaller number of larger charge stations ( to handle the queuing ) and will be commercialised and I expect quite expensive ( probably all more then diesel ) .

I would expect that in future most domestic EVSEs , will in fact be DC, as the network will need to manage EV charging

Its far easier to maintain a reliable and effective " network" if you have multiple chargers , in few sites , and its easier to upgrade power and technology of this sites as well.

Destination charging will be limited to places where people over night , because short duration destination charging will be mostly unnecessary

In that scenario it makes no engineering sense, nor financial sense to load the car technically , weight wise and financially with a charger that fro an increasing percentage of the cars use , does absolutely nothing, you might as well be carrying bricks

The current FCP network is a deadend, chargers positioned in sites with either little physical room for expansion ( petrol stations ) , limited electrical power, or unsuitable for quick turnarounds ( shopping centres) . it will not last

In 5yrs time though, you still wont have a decent percentage of 100kWh EV's on the road. Those that are available will be for the "rich", like they are today so the numbers will be very very small.

Even 10yrs from now the % will be small. You should have a decent uptake of 60kWh EV's.

Even when the 60kWh EV's arrive in 2018 you still need the network we have right now. Just because you can do 300km's on a charge doesnt mean you can plonk a few rapids around the country and expect that to work. Forcing people to drive out of their way to charge wont work.

We have ICE cars that can do 1000km on a fill but stations are everywhere. EV's need a similar service to be available so less rapids would be bad.

However, ESB might do what you are saying if they continue to make nothing out of it so I understand your point. I just hope it doesnt happen.

If there was mass EV adoption its more rapids would be required, not less as the queuing would be horrendous. What do we have.... 2 million cars in Ireland?.... even if 50% of them were EV in, say, 30yrs time... how would less rapids/sites handle that?

BoatMad

KCross wrote: »

In 5yrs time though, you still wont have a decent percentage of 100kWh EV's on the road. Those that are available will be for the "rich", like they are today so the numbers will be very very small.

Even 10yrs from now the % will be small. You should have a decent uptake of 60kWh EV's.

Even when the 60kWh EV's arrive in 2018 you still need the network we have right now. Just because you can do 300km's on a charge doesnt mean you can plonk a few rapids around the country and expect that to work. Forcing people to drive out of their way to charge wont work.

We have ICE cars that can do 1000km on a fill but stations are everywhere. EV's need a similar service to be available so less rapids would be bad.

However, ESB might do what you are saying if they continue to make nothing out of it so I understand your point. I just hope it doesnt happen.

If there was mass EV adoption its more rapids would be required, not less as the queuing would be horrendous. What do we have.... 2 million cars in Ireland?.... even if 50% of them were EV in, say, 30yrs time... how would less rapids/sites handle that?

I think we have about 2.5 millions cars on irish roads.

The fact is that the current idea of single FCPs in shopping car parks is not sustainable. Nor can that model be successfully commercialised or maintained inexpensively or upgraded easily

so the network we have is " a time and place" thing, mostly using the vision of those people 5 years ago. ( since technically the chargers are the same as 5 years ago )

The big difference between petrol and electricity is we cant make petrol at home, but we can do so with electricity . Hence the only solution to mass EVs will be primarily based around home charging , thats the only way it will make sense. EVs will be able to perform the daily requirements of more and more people and then will be charged at home ( or other overnight venues), the ones thing we are certain of , is that humans need sleep !.

So personally I dont see the type of network the ESB has installed as lasting nor will it ever be commercialised in any normal sense of the word.

The future will be a number of Tesla style supercharger parks , with amenities for EVs drivers etc. everything else will be over night charging, These parks will have multiple chargers to ensure redundancy , large power needs to support 100-200Kw DC charging and sophisticated management systems and highly responsive maintenance. They will also be expensive to use!

KCross

BoatMad wrote: »

I think we have about 2.5 millions cars on irish roads.

The fact is that the current idea of single FCPs in shopping car parks is not sustainable. Nor can that model be successfully commercialised or maintained inexpensively or upgraded easily

so the network we have is " a time and place" thing, mostly using the vision of those people 5 years ago. ( since technically the chargers are the same as 5 years ago )

The big difference between petrol and electricity is we cant make petrol at home, but we can do so with electricity . Hence the only solution to mass EVs will be primarily based around home charging , thats the only way it will make sense. EVs will be able to perform the daily requirements of more and more people and then will be charged at home ( or other overnight venues), the ones thing we are certain of , is that humans need sleep !.

So personally I dont see the type of network the ESB has installed as lasting nor will it ever be commercialised in any normal sense of the word.

The future will be a number of Tesla style supercharger parks , with amenities for EVs drivers etc. everything else will be over night charging, These parks will have multiple chargers to ensure redundancy , large power needs to support 100-200Kw DC charging and sophisticated management systems and highly responsive maintenance. They will also be expensive to use!

Your vision is really beyond 10yrs time though. Thats crystal ball territory rather than a purely technical argument.

Even if you're right... how would 100s of thousands of people charge at these supercharger sites. I know you say you will charge at home first but we are talking about 100s of thousands of users so the scale would require more than a few supercharger sites to handle the numbers when we get to where your vision is at?

We have, what, 2-3k EV's right now and there are queuing issues at a few hotspots. Multiply that by 500,000 users, 1 million users.... I dont see how a few supercharger sites would work.

I do agree the current sites are dead-ends.... supermarkets etc. They should be off main roads and outside big towns. Places that are not convenient for people to walk away to do an hours shopping!

BoatMad

KCross wrote: »

Your vision is really beyond 10yrs time though. Thats crystal ball territory rather than a purely technical argument.

Even if you're right... how would 100s of thousands of people charge at these supercharger sites. I know you say you will charge at home first but we are talking about 100s of thousands of users so the scale would require more than a few supercharger sites to handle the numbers when we get to where your vision is at?

We have, what, 2-3k EV's right now and there are queuing issues at a few hotspots. Multiply that by 500,000 users, 1 million users.... I dont see how a few supercharger sites would work.

I do agree the current sites are dead-ends.... supermarkets etc. They should be off main roads and outside big towns. Places that are not convenient for people to walk away to do an hours shopping!

within 10 years we will see 200Kwh batteries , we will see a future that has little use for public charging ( which is really only there because of the technical limitations of batteries , not as a real need of the technology per se, as in petrol stations )

The vast majority of car users are not barrelling up and down the country , Irelands roads outside the DGA and parts of cork are very under-utilised by European standards, that not going to change anytime soon

with EVs having 200, 300 500 , 700 Km ranges, the main need for charging will be for long journeys , i.e. those typically where a motorway or a major N route is being used and most will be radial journeys to the GDA.

Hence only a minority of EVs will be using fast charging at any time, most will simply not need it.

hence the need for large scale high power but sparsely spread chargers

The logic is simply this , nothing else is commercial and hence it cannot survive long term,

right now there is less then 2000 EVs , and we have queuing because of several reasons , ( a) its free so people cant be bothered to charge at home , ESB have stats on this and maintain this is a serious factor in FCP loading , (b) we have poorly sited single point chargers and (c) we have not seen enough time and quantity of EVs to establish proper usage patterns

KCross

I guess an eye on ecotricity in the UK and how their charging for charging goes and also how the Tesla supercharger network works will give us an indication of how it will pan out here. Different scale but we usually follow the UK in these types of things.

If it happens in 10yrs over there it will be 20yrs here!

BoatMad

KCross wrote: »

I guess an eye on ecotricity in the UK and how their charging for charging goes and also how the Tesla supercharger network works will give us an indication of how it will pan out here. Different scale but we usually follow the UK in these types of things.

If it happens in 10yrs over there it will be 20yrs here!

I think we are close to a tipping point for EVs, either this technology will in a reasonable period of time address the needs of many motorists , or it will stagnate , fail and become an interesting historical footnote in transport history, like steam driven cars for example, which were initially hailed as a potential game changer.

we shall see. my money is on EVs ( literally )

KCross

BoatMad wrote: »

The big difference between petrol and electricity is we cant make petrol at home, but we can do so with electricity . Hence the only solution to mass EVs will be primarily based around home charging , thats the only way it will make sense. EVs will be able to perform the daily requirements of more and more people and then will be charged at home ( or other overnight venues), the ones thing we are certain of , is that humans need sleep !.

BoatMad wrote: »

I worrying that the costs of EV charging will rise uncontrollably . As Ive said before home charging is a technology dead end too, The capacity of the majority of home electricity systems is too low for next generation ( 2018) EVs, then where does that leave us ?>

Had a quiet chuckle to myself when I just saw a post you made last year in that "Apartment parking charge point?" thread that was resurrected while ago.

In political circles would that be called a u-turn?!

BoatMad

KCross wrote: »

Had a quiet chuckle to myself when I just saw a post you made last year in that "Apartment parking charge point?" thread that was resurrected while ago.

In political circles would that be called a u-turn?!

actually no, what I was decrying was the issue of limited domestic power. what has changed is that I now believe that the power issue will be solved by I suspect network control, which will require smart EVSE ( which I think will ultimately be DC) . This is because I dont no see FCPs as a vernal charging solutions for 1000,0000s of EVs ( because the dwell time is too long )

on mature reflection of course !

KCross

BoatMad wrote: »

actually no, what I was decrying was the issue of limited domestic power. what has changed is that I now believe that the power issue will be solved by I suspect network control, which will require smart EVSE ( which I think will ultimately be DC) . This is because I dont no see FCPs as a vernal charging solutions for 1000,0000s of EVs ( because the dwell time is too long )

on mature reflection of course !

Ah BoatMad, come on now.... that was just 10 months ago and home EVSE was a technology dead end!!

Domestic power hasnt come on in leaps and bounds in that time. Or is the crystal ball out again and everyone will be getting upgraded ESB connections in the near future. I think I'll take your rebuttal with a pinch of salt for now.

One thing I think we all know is that none of us know.... its an evolving space with lots of variables (battery tech, esb network, rapids, Solar PV, government grants, Tesla like disruption, powerwalls and all the things that have not been invented yet).... lots of things that affect the way its going to go..... if your opinion can flip on its head in 10 months it can change many more times in the next 10 years.... unless your absolutely sure this time!

One thing is for certain, without Government funding for the charging infrastructure in the Budget in 2 weeks then I fear the ESB will probably just barely maintain what they have. It's a long wait for Budget again next year meanwhile the Network gets even further behind.

Getting back the AC/DC, I've no objection to 20 Kw DC chargers being installed, you don't always need 45-200 Kw DC and you don't then have a situation where 22 Kw chargers are getting wasted by having 3.5-6.6 Kw ev's plugged into them.

I know the Germans are installing a large amount of them or will be as well as higher power.

BoatMad

One thing I think we all know is that none of us know.... its an evolving space with lots of variables (battery tech, esb network, rapids, Solar PV, government grants, Tesla like disruption, powerwalls and all the things that have not been invented yet).... lots of things that affect the way its going to go..... if your opinion can flip on its head in 10 months it can change many more times in the next 10 years.... unless your absolutely sure this time!

yes I agree, we cant really tell, but I'm sure this time ( for now )

BoatMad

One thing is for certain, without Government funding for the charging infrastructure in the Budget in 2 weeks then I fear the ESB will probably just barely maintain what they have. It's a long wait for Budget again next year meanwhile the Network gets even further behind.

+1

and it doesnt look likely there will be anything forthcoming

100 Evs parading slowly down o'conell st ( noiselessly of course) would gets Shanes attention however ,

No , my guess is that there'll be no funding whatsoever for the network but the Grant, vrt relief and charge point installation will continue (hopefully)

Unfortunately , anything to do with electric cars is far off the radar to the Government. But an increase on diesel motor tax and diesel fuel would go a long way towards funding the network.

Dardania

Deleted User wrote: »

Unfortunately , anything to do with electric cars is far off the radar to the Government. But an increase on diesel motor tax and diesel fuel would go a long way towards funding the network.

You can have your say here: http://dccae.gov.ie/energy/en-ie/Pages/Consultation/Energy-Efficiency-Obligation-Scheme-Consultation-on-the-2017-2019-Phase-of-Operation.aspx

Dardania

Dardania wrote: »

You can have your say here: http://dccae.gov.ie/energy/en-ie/Pages/Consultation/Energy-Efficiency-Obligation-Scheme-Consultation-on-the-2017-2019-Phase-of-Operation.aspx

Cool, I'll send them an email when I get time.

Nothing would come into effect any time soon I'd imagine.

KCross

Deleted User wrote: »

No , my guess is that there'll be no funding whatsoever for the network but the Grant, vrt relief and charge point installation will continue (hopefully)

Unfortunately , anything to do with electric cars is far off the radar to the Government. But an increase on diesel motor tax and diesel fuel would go a long way towards funding the network.

Well, the diesel tax wont happen anyway....

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/noonan-dashes-hopes-of-significant-usc-cuts-we-dont-have-the-money-35066145.html

Snippet....

Mr Noonan says he has no plan to equalise excise duty on petrol and diesel.

Different excise rates mean petrol is currently 11 cent more expensive than diesel. Changing that now would give "a fair shock to the system", Mr Noonan said, adding: "So many people have bought diesel cars."


And the 2000 free charge points is close to finishing(Jan 2017 maybe?) and ESB are unlikely to fund any more without money coming from somewhere... that leaves free charging, grant and VRT relief as the only incentives.

KCross

KCross wrote: »

Well, the diesel tax wont happen anyway....

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/noonan-dashes-hopes-of-significant-usc-cuts-we-dont-have-the-money-35066145.html

Snippet....

Mr Noonan says he has no plan to equalise excise duty on petrol and diesel.

Different excise rates mean petrol is currently 11 cent more expensive than diesel. Changing that now would give "a fair shock to the system", Mr Noonan said, adding: "So many people have bought diesel cars."

What a pure ignorant little gobsH*I*T*E!!!

No incentive to change what so ever, backward ignorant idiots that's the best I can come up after 72 hrs of shifts !!!

All they have to do is to tax new diesels higher, a 2 x fold increase in diesel "motor" tax will encourage people to change.

I did say a few times that it will take the car manufacturers themselves to force people to change to EV and not Governments. Our Government is a disaster pure ignorant.

They really do not care about the health impacts of Diesels or what diesel exhaust is doing to human health and the cost of it.

This certainly will not help EV sales, why will people change ? Diesel is far too affordable in the minds of Irish people, sure what's 20-70 a week in diesel ? and the "road tax" is cheap.

KCross

This government's hands are tied behind its back. Anything meaningful that would increase EV sales significantly will cost money, that they dont have. You can tinker with motor tax, free chargers etc but it wont cause a significant increase in EV sales. The grant and VRT is already worth €10k, which is a serious incentive in itself and the Leaf isnt expensive, but its still struggling to take off.

Taxing diesel, while it might seem like a good idea, wouldnt get passed a vote in the Dail. FF would bring the government down and the lobby groups would go mental. Anything that will be perceived as costing people more money will cause FF to walk away.


"Long" range EV is the only thing, that I can see, that will open up mass adoption. If we are dependent on fuel taxes or government policy to make it happen, it wont.

Once long range EV is available at an affordable price people will buy on merit. The fuel savings will be the icing on the cake rather than the reason to move.

BoatMad

you cant force people into EVs, the change will come when EVS offer a better set of benefits and conveniences over diesel.

ABC101

Diesels appear to have had their time in the sun, now that the public have become more aware of Nox and particulate soot issues.

Interestingly, I was reading a section on Wikipedia about GDI, gasoline Direct Injection engines.

The trend now is for a petrol, turbo, direct injection, long stroke with variable valve timing etc.

But the article also mentioned that particulate filters may also be required for these types of petrol engines.!

May not be as bad as diesel DPF filter issues, but we may be on this forum in 20 years time looking back and complaining that the 2008 move to diesel was a bad one, and then so too was the 2017 swing back to petrol!!

isnottheword

BoatMad wrote: »

you cant force people into EVs, the change will come when EVS offer a better set of benefits and conveniences over diesel.

Agreed. However, they should insure the integrity of the charging network that's been built in terms of uptime and real time reporting.

Otherwise, the technology itself will make it's own case once range increases over the next couple of years.

BoatMad

isnottheword wrote: »

Agreed. However, they should insure the integrity of the charging network that's been built in terms of uptime and real time reporting.

Otherwise, the technology itself will make it's own case once range increases over the next couple of years.

The charging network will change over time. We shouldn't be too worried about the here and now. In general the FCP network is reliable and in time issues like real time app updating will be added. The key thing for this is gov support and finance backing for the public network.

There won't be any government funding at least until next years budget, if even.