Courier added VAT?

rawn

Hi all. Ordered a dress from Singapore on eBay, which cost €69 plus €11 delivery. I've been getting texts from the courier saying it has arrived in the country, it will be with you in Thursday etc. I got a text today from the courier saying

Dear Customer
We have a shipment ref ******** scheduled for delivery to you today. There is a Customs Duty & VAT amount payable of €43.11 on this shipment. This must be paid via a debit/credit card online at ***********

Regards
*******

I paid it as i wasn't home and didn't want any hassle with it (it's my wedding dress!) But looking online €43 seems steep? Furthermore the invoice says "dress of gift" which i thought means no VAT is paid under a certain amount? Is €43.11 correct for a parcel costing €69?

L1011

They will have taken a notional, huge, value for shipping and charged based on that.

The false gift declaration will NOT help in appealing, though.

rawn

L1011 wrote:

The false gift declaration will NOT help in appealing, though.

I understand that, tbh i was surprised when i saw it as i never said anything to the seller about it being a gift and they never mentioned it either

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

rawn wrote: »

I understand that, tbh i was surprised when i saw it as i never said anything to the seller about it being a gift and they never mentioned it either

That was the seller knowingly trying to avoid vat and duty charges. It doesn't work.

rawn

Zaid Victorious Stockade wrote:

That was the seller knowingly trying to avoid vat and duty charges. It doesn't work.

Dammit... So did the seller pass the tax and duty on to me or would i have had to pay that anyways?

whiterebel

L1011 wrote: »

They will have taken a notional, huge, value for shipping and charged based on that.

The false gift declaration will NOT help in appealing, though.

Why? There isn't anything in it for the courier to do that. The VAT/Duty paid goes to revenue, not the courier. If they sent it on a 2 day express service revenue wouldn't accept $11 for shipping, or if its in a huge box.

OP, ring the courier and ask for a break down of the charges, and a copy of the customs entry.

You would expect

$69
+$11 freight
= $80. There may be duty payable as there are all sorts of duties on certain materials such as fabric.
Add the duty if applicable.
Add 23% on top of $80 + Duties
Add €15 for the courier to complete a customs entry and pay out the VAT/Duty on your behalf. Still seems high though, as the landed value would be approx €72.

jimmii

It's Revenue that put the value on the item as they know that not only do sellers put gift they also put the value as a fraction of what's actually paid. There should be a reference number email the receipt for the dress and the ref and they should adjust it have had to do that in the past.

The courier may have added an admin charge too I seem to remember DHL add €10/€11 or thereabouts.

ED E

whiterebel wrote: »

Why? There isn't anything in it for the courier to do that. The VAT/Duty paid goes to revenue, not the courier. If they sent it on a 2 day express service revenue wouldn't accept $11 for shipping, or if its in a huge box.

OP, ring the courier and ask for a break down of the charges, and a copy of the customs entry.

You would expect

$69
+$11 freight
= $80. There may be duty payable as there are all sorts of duties on certain materials such as fabric.
Add the duty if applicable.
Add 23% on top of $80 + Duties
Add €15 for the courier to complete a customs entry and pay out the VAT/Duty on your behalf. Still seems high though, as the landed value would be approx €72.

Its €80 not $80 I suspect.

Even with duty you're at €20 in charges + €7-15 in handling. €41 means they've probably judged their own value. Contact the courier and provide the invoice. This should mean a small refund.

jimmii wrote: »

It's Revenue that put the value on the item as they know that not only do sellers put gift they also put the value as a fraction of what's actually paid. There should be a reference number email the receipt for the dress and the ref and they should adjust it have had to do that in the past.

The courier may have added an admin charge too I seem to remember DHL add €10/€11 or thereabouts.

AFAIK they "help" revenue by assessing themselves.

Walter2016

Gift = trying to scam out of the vat you are obliged to pay. Customs simply don't fall for that.

€80 inc delivery.

Duty on clothing is between 6% & 12%

Vat at 23% is added to price including duty.

Courier adds paperwork fee of about €10 + 13.5% vat.

So approx €10 duty, €20 vat, €13.50 processing fee.

Business importing clothing pay the same duty and vat rates too.

Steve

Did you use paypal and send the money as a 'gift' by any chance?

rawn

Steve wrote: »

Did you use paypal and send the money as a 'gift' by any chance?

I paid with Paypal but I paid the way I usually do, no changes to anything on it or comments, nothing. The docket arrived with "dress as gift" on it but this was never discussed with the seller! I have plenty of emails of discussion with the seller discussing measurements, neither of us mentioned the word "gift", so I really don't know why it says it or why she would assume I'm "gifting" myself a wedding dress.

Steve

rawn wrote: »

I paid with Paypal but I paid the way I usually do, no changes to anything on it or comments, nothing. The docket arrived with "dress as gift" on it but this was never discussed with the seller! I have plenty of emails of discussion with the seller discussing measurements, neither of us mentioned the word "gift", so I really don't know why it says it or why she would assume I'm "gifting" myself a wedding dress.

I think you were just unlucky that it was flagged / found by customs then.

Some entities ask for the paypal payment to be sent as a 'gift' which essentially strips you of your rights to an appeal or refund (and also avoids paypal fees).

jimmii

ED E wrote: »

Its €80 not $80 I suspect.

Even with duty you're at €20 in charges + €7-15 in handling. €41 means they've probably judged their own value. Contact the courier and provide the invoice. This should mean a small refund.



AFAIK they "help" revenue by assessing themselves.

Presumably they do to some extent especially with low value items. My experience has always been mostly with wholesale orders but assume it works the same. Either way a receipt should be enough for it to be corrected.

jimmii

rawn wrote: »

I paid with Paypal but I paid the way I usually do, no changes to anything on it or comments, nothing. The docket arrived with "dress as gift" on it but this was never discussed with the seller! I have plenty of emails of discussion with the seller discussing measurements, neither of us mentioned the word "gift", so I really don't know why it says it or why she would assume I'm "gifting" myself a wedding dress.

That's pretty normal Revenue do say it's your obligation to ensure its marked correctly but they know how it works and know it's not normally discussed so just email them th receipt and they should sort it out for you. There's nothing else to do really send them that they correct it all done.

rawn

jimmii wrote: »

That's pretty normal Revenue do say it's your obligation to ensure its marked correctly but they know how it works and know it's not normally discussed so just email them th receipt and they should sort it out for you. There's nothing else to do really send them that they correct it all done.

Thanks for that. Do I email Revenue or the courier? I have already sent an email to the courier but without the receipt as I am emailing from work at the moment.

jimmii

rawn wrote: »

Thanks for that. Do I email Revenue or the courier? I have already sent an email to the courier but without the receipt as I am emailing from work at the moment.

When it happened to me I had a ref and an email address to contact attached to the delivery but it depends on the courier. DHL used to deliver then invoice not sure if that is widespread. If you have the ref contact revenue if not contact the courier saying you are disputing the value they should supply a ref so you can send the receipt and only have to pay the correct amount.

rawn

Courier responded this morning. Unfortunately i don't understand it :P

€

Value of goods 71.04

Applied Freight 62.06

Total taxable 133.10

VAT @ 23% 30.61

DHL Admin 12.50

Total due 43.11

snubbleste

rawn wrote: »

Courier responded this morning. Unfortunately i don't understand it :P

Pretty easy, no?

rawn

snubbleste wrote:

Pretty easy, no?

For my sleepy brain, no. What is applied freight??

snubbleste

rawn wrote: »

For my sleepy brain, no. What is applied freight??

Postage.

rawn

The seller only charged me 11e postage, so have the courier added on the post i should have paid (had the seller not written "gift" on it)?

Spocker

rawn wrote: »

The seller only charged me 11e postage, so have the courier added on the post i should have paid (had the seller not written "gift" on it)?

The courier company don't know (and don't care) what the seller charged you for delivery; they invent their own price, and then add it to the cost of the item, and then produce the numbers you gave above to calculate what the charge is.

All too common unfortunately

Walter2016

rawn wrote: »

The seller only charged me 11e postage, so have the courier added on the post i should have paid (had the seller not written "gift" on it)?

Look, customs are not stupid. You may think they are, you amy think you can con the system, but they have brains.

DHL do not charge €11 door to door freight no matter how big a customer you are.

A "real" freight charge has been applied.

The company I work for imports boxes from far east, usually with UPS and even though they are sending thousands of parcels a week, the freight charges for a medium size box on their "slow" expedited service is $120-$150.

The sender did not show a propor shipping charge, revenue applied a real charge and you were charged appropriately.

If the sender had put $35 as the delivery charge and $55 as value for the item, then it might have been accepted, but $11 or €11 just raised a red flag. .

At the end of the day, you paid similar charges as anyone importing into Europe would have paid and also what all retailers have paid.

You could spend several hours of time arguing - you "might" get €10 back, but unlikely.

rawn

Thanks that was all the info i needed. Usually when i order from Asia the item is freepost, but takes weeks to get here. So when i saw the 11e delivery charge i didn't think twice about it, i assumed it was snail mail and they were charging for packaging, i didn't know it was courier until i got the email saying it had been dispatched with the courier. That's why i was annoyed/confused when i saw the large VAT charge, it was unexpected. I didn't try to avoid any charge i just paid what was asked.

Dades

Walter2016 wrote: »

Look, customs are not stupid. You may think they are, you amy think you can con the system, but they have brains.

DHL do not charge €11 door to door freight no matter how big a customer you are.

A "real" freight charge has been applied.

What is a "real freight charge"?

The OP paid €11 postage on an item worth €69. Unless the seller took a €50 hit on the actual cost of posting a €69 item then where are they getting this €62.06 from?

DHL aren't getting that freight charge - it's only being used to bump up the VAT payable to the Revenue. I'd be asking where they pulled it from, tbh. On principle if for no other reason.

readytosnap

even with the vat bill that is cheap for a wedding dress.

rawn

I'm looking at an item on Ali Express now and it says delivery 12.45 from Asia, delivered by DHL ... if I were to order this would the same thing happen again?

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/Winter-Bridal-Cape-Faux-Fur-Wedding-Cloaks-Hooded-Perfect-For-Winter-Wedding-Bridal-Cloaks-Abaya-DS0990/32256109193.html?spm=2114.40010308.4.46.7qknuo

rawn

readytosnap wrote: »

even with the vat bill that is cheap for a wedding dress.

Yeah, shotgun wedding and all that, time and funds are pretty limited! :pac:

ED E

This is BS. The seller didn't pay €62.06. No way.

There are two scenarios, Hand off and end to end.

End to End:
Courier receives and delivers the item, in this case DHL. They know exactly how much was billed to the sender.

Hand off:
Chinapost (for example) receive the item, forward it through logistics partners until it reaches Portlaoise where its then scanned and valued. An Post do NOT know what Chinapost billed the sender, only whats on the docket (often false).

So in the latter DMC revenue agents can estimate the shipping on what a courier would charge an Irish person which is usually significantly more. This doesnt apply to the OP though as they know exactly what was paid. 100% dispute it.

whiterebel

rawn wrote: »

Thanks that was all the info i needed. Usually when i order from Asia the item is freepost, but takes weeks to get here. So when i saw the 11e delivery charge i didn't think twice about it, i assumed it was snail mail and they were charging for packaging, i didn't know it was courier until i got the email saying it had been dispatched with the courier. That's why i was annoyed/confused when i saw the large VAT charge, it was unexpected. I didn't try to avoid any charge i just paid what was asked.

How long did it take to arrive, approximately?

rawn

whiterebel wrote:

How long did it take to arrive, approximately?

I ordered it 26 July, it arrived on Wednesday. I'm not sure when it was posted but DHL text me on 12th Sep to say it was on its way so i assume that's when it arrived in Ireland anyways

rawn

DHL (excellent response times from them btw) confirmed that the freight charge was calculated as the shipper did not specify how much they charged for shipping. I asked if i could get a refund of the difference if i provided am invoice and they said

"I’m afraid not, Customs will not allow this. If the information was not on the paperwork when it came into the country they will not accept any amendments ."

I guess I'll have to bring it up with the seller then.

whiterebel

rawn wrote: »

DHL (excellent response times from them btw) confirmed that the freight charge was calculated as the shipper did not specify how much they charged for shipping. I asked if i could get a refund of the difference if i provided am invoice and they said

"I’m afraid not, Customs will not allow this. If the information was not on the paperwork when it came into the country they will not accept any amendments ."

I guess I'll have to bring it up with the seller then.

If you have the tracking number for DHL it should tell you when it left the seller. It seems to me that they were slow getting the order out and shipped it express, but only charged you normal post. Not much you can do as Revenue wouldn't accept €11 for a 2/3 day service.

rawn

whiterebel wrote:

If you have the tracking number for DHL it should tell you when it left the seller. It seems to me that they were slow getting the order out and shipped it express, but only charged you normal post. Not much you can do as Revenue wouldn't accept €11 for a 2/3 day service.

Yeah that makes sense. I will speak with the seller about it though, if the seller had charged a higher price to cover the cost correctly i would still have bought it, i just don't like being surprised with an extra 41e bill on delivery!

Dades

If you ordered it 26 July and it arrived in Ireland in September would that not be totally in keeping with a cheap €11 charge?

I don't see how they can pull a number out of their ass like €62.06 and then refuse to change it with proof of the actual cost.

I can't see what contacting the seller will achieve. Their not going to be interested in customs shenanigans and I wouldn't blame them, tbh.

readytosnap

No matter what way you dress (ahem) it up, you won't be getting a refund from anybody, I think it's time to let it go, let it go...

StupidLikeAFox

rawn wrote: »

Yeah that makes sense. I will speak with the seller about it though, if the seller had charged a higher price to cover the cost correctly i would still have bought it, i just don't like being surprised with an extra 41e bill on delivery!

Well once customs caught the package you were always gonna be stung with some sort of bill. You are probably only out of pocket by about €15 or €20 all things considered

whiterebel

Dades wrote: »

If you ordered it 26 July and it arrived in Ireland in September would that not be totally in keeping with a cheap €11 charge?

I don't see how they can pull a number out of their ass like €62.06 and then refuse to change it with proof of the actual cost.

I can't see what contacting the seller will achieve. Their not going to be interested in customs shenanigans and I wouldn't blame them, tbh.

Even to ship it via container would cost a minimum of $50-60 for that sort of timeframe. For small parcels, couriers can be more economical unless its up against normal postal service. It might be the case that the shipper missed the cut-off for normal post, charged the OP the postal rate, but shipped it DHL to make sure it made it on time.
DHL/Fedex/UPS/TNT have rate books which they can refer to for shipments to/from anywhere in the world. This is what they would use if anyone queries the carriage cost.

Dades

How do companies like DealExtreme and Alibaba sellers manage to offer free postage on cheap goods? I got cycling gear from an Alibaba seller sent free, when the product was only about $25. Took ages, but so did the OPs dress.

I'd be interested hear from the seller here if they really did have to use a pricier delivery option or if someone's adding liberal charges for no reason.

tsue921i8wljb3

Is the problem here that the Chinese sellers have access to much cheaper rates from the major couriers either directly or through agents? The couriers however use the European rates when calculating VAT and Duty due.

BoatMad

Roselyn Substantial Hyacinth wrote: »

Is the problem here that the Chinese sellers have access to much cheaper rates from the major couriers either directly or through agents? The couriers however use the European rates when calculating VAT and Duty due.

This isnt the case, this only happens when the seller does not provide sufficient paperwork to indicate the courier charge

The standard way for this is a proper invoice contained in a documents attached folder on the outside of the package, this is done specifically to allow customs authorities to allocate the correct costs

unfortunately the cheapie Chinese sellers , dont bother and hence charges must be determined at customs clearance time and in that case standard local charges are assigned for the purposes of calculating VAT . what they often do is just place the postal declaration sticker on the outside and that does not provide sufficient information to calculate VAT

basically you're stuck with it

tsue921i8wljb3

BoatMad wrote: »

This isnt the case, this only happens when the seller does not provide sufficient paperwork to indicate the courier charge

The standard way for this is a proper invoice contained in a documents attached folder on the outside of the package, this is done specifically to allow customs authorities to allocate the correct costs

unfortunately the cheapie Chinese sellers , dont bother and hence charges must be determined at customs clearance time and in that case standard local charges are assigned for the purposes of calculating VAT . what they often do is just place the postal declaration sticker on the outside and that does not provide sufficient information to calculate VAT

basically you're stuck with it

But would there be a discrepancy between standard local charges and Chinese charges?

BoatMad

Roselyn Substantial Hyacinth wrote: »

But would there be a discrepancy between standard local charges and Chinese charges?

very much so, courier costs from China are some of the most competitive in the world as these small chineese sellers use huge groupage rates to reduce costs . ( this is how China post does it as well )

Dades

BoatMad, that's the post we've all been waiting for.

My only gripe is that if the consignee can produce evidence of the actual freight cost that VAT is chargeable on it should be revised. It's not their fault sellers leave out the paperwork.

The revenue take enough of our cash without bumping up figures to charge VAT on.

BoatMad

Dades wrote: »

BoatMad, that's the post we've all been waiting for.

My only gripe is that if the consignee can produce evidence of the actual freight cost that VAT is chargeable on it should be revised. It's not their fault sellers leave out the paperwork.

The revenue take enough of our cash without bumping up figures to charge VAT on.

No " clearance " is " clearance " , The process is applied at the point of import using the evidence ( or lack of it ) at that particular time. Once the fees are paid , the goods are in free circulation within the EU. There is no post process recalculation , unless revenue err.

This process goes back hundreds of years.

It's the responsibility of the consigner to attach appropriate paperwork. Otherwise revenue would be deluged with people post processing paperwork to suit and attempting to claim refunds

ED E

Thats fine, if revenue calculate it at the DMC/Portlaoise. But they arent, its DHL who are not revenue staff.

With Revenue:
Rev:Hey, customs are due
You: No, see this invoice
Rev: Ok cool, released

With DHL:
DHL: Here's your package
DHL: You owe us VAT+ Charges
You: No I dont, see invoice
DHL: Well we went ahead and paid them so cough up

BoatMad

ED E wrote: »

Thats fine, if revenue calculate it at the DMC/Portlaoise. But they arent, its DHL who are not revenue staff.

With Revenue:
Rev:Hey, customs are due
You: No, see this invoice
Rev: Ok cool, released

With DHL:
DHL: Here's your package
DHL: You owe us VAT+ Charges
You: No I dont, see invoice
DHL: Well we went ahead and paid them so cough up

Revenue never calculate anything, its a self assessment basis , the courier firm has a responsibility to collect customs and VAT ( like all business ), how it derives that, is actually up to it ( as is the case with all businesses ).

DHL clear on a group basis , they cant have a situation where a container is held while ( you and others) fumble around sorting out paperwork , They take the documentation available at import time and that is used. There is for business with regular situations a TAIN account and that can be used to repay or balance out charges over time if required. This is not done for small imports.

stop blaming DHL , the original consigner did not declare the values appropriately ( its clearly not a gift etc ) and thats the end of it

ED E

I really dont see how Revenue & AP can do it while a courier can't especially considering DMC processes in excess of 2M items/day.

BoatMad

ED E wrote: »

I really dont see how Revenue & AP can do it while a courier can't especially considering DMC processes in excess of 2M items/day.

most which dont need clearance

whiterebel

ED E wrote: »

I really dont see how Revenue & AP can do it while a courier can't especially considering DMC processes in excess of 2M items/day.

An Post operate in a different sphere to the couriers. Courier by nature is very expensive and costs a lot more than standard post. Chances are, freight cost on an express parcel from China would put a shipment over the threshhold for VAT, never mind the article itself. With An Post it wouldn't be unusual to see stamps on a parcel amounting to a couple of euros, putting the consignment under the threshold.

BoatMad

whiterebel wrote: »

An Post operate in a different sphere to the couriers. Courier by nature is very expensive and costs a lot more than standard post. Chances are, freight cost on an express parcel from China would put a shipment over the threshhold for VAT, never mind the article itself. With An Post it wouldn't be unusual to see stamps on a parcel amounting to a couple of euros, putting the consignment under the threshold.

actually this is not necessaryily the case and many freight companies actually have the contract for carrying airmail

IN reality there is no real difference between an post and the couriers, when on post inform you of the clearance and VAT on a parcel, AN post have already cleared that parcel and you have no debate as to the value, you cant argue with them. VAT is charged in the normal way

The only advantage is that the nature of the postage costs are directly obvious upon inspection and hence do not have too be estimated. IN a courier cases there is no equivalent " stamps" and hence value has to be determined from the documentation supporting the shipment ( and of course VAT is applicable to courier charges and not stamps )

its no different between the two, in the process of clearing good and arriving at a determination

Of course for large value shipments this is not how it works, as in this case there is bonded storage etc