Werewolf discussion thread

sKeith

Luka Blue Ramp wrote: »

This whole comparison makes no sense mods aren't players they are game creators so they can't cheat only players can cheat as only players can win

So,

The dealer is in charge of a 3 handed game of poker, and he swaps out player 1's cards which would have been 7 2 with a K J, because that would be more interesting up against player 2's QQ and player 3's AK.


The players have no idea the dealer was manupilating the deck.

Necro

Banjo wrote: »

A referee who gives a penalty on a dodgy call because he's intimidated by the home crowd or the big occasion is not impartial.
A referee who gives a penalty on a dodgy call because he has €10,000 on the game is cheating.

Banjo

Banjo wrote: »

A referee who gives a penalty on a dodgy call because he's intimidated by the home crowd or the big occasion is not impartial.
A referee who gives a penalty on a dodgy call because he has €10,000 on the game is cheating.

Is that just an example or is financial gain the only way a ref could be considered a cheat?

Banjo

Luka Blue Ramp wrote: »

Is that just an example or is financial gain the only way a ref could be considered a cheat?

sKeith's example is better. Pter is bound to move it here once he realises that he hadn't moved your post over yet. But yes, one example.

sKeith

Luka Blue Ramp wrote: »

Is that just an example or is financial gain the only way a ref could be considered a cheat?

Dunno what game the ref is reffing but i'll try gereralize it.

The ref maybe knows that the losers are going home, and the winners will stay around for the next rounds, so rigs it so the people he don't like are knocked out and have to go home.

sKeith

sKeith wrote: »

Dunno what game the ref is reffing but i'll try gereralize it.

The ref maybe knows that the losers are going home, and the winners will stay around for the next rounds, so rigs it so the people he don't like are knocked out and have to go home.

Ya but is that cheating or just biased. Ah look I'm probably way off here its probably just poor understanding on my part so I'll stand corrected on this. I'm like 80% convinced

Baggly

sKeith wrote:

The ref maybe knows that the losers are going home, and the winners will stay around for the next rounds, so rigs it so the people he don't like are knocked out and have to go home.

That's a risk in any game (dodgy refs / mods / GM's). It's the issue I raised in D&D discussion a couple of months ago, to no obvious solution. It's a problem the Rand doesn't actually rule out. How easy is it to fix a Rand? Very.

As was pointed out to me for D&D there is always going to be a requirement for trust within a game.

Now what qb and molly and in fairness to ye probably you guys as well have pointed out about the draft meaning mod picks can be anticipated....well I don't know about that. Put aside players won't know there is a draft, even if they do, will they know I picked my picks based off who is best for the role, or based off 'well let's see if he is good in this role' or based off 'lets give the beginners a couple of the power roles to make sure they get experience'. They won't.

And if it was suggested to do a day 1 lynch off the back of 'maybe the mods did a draft' that would be dismissed by a village as quickly as a low poster hunt. For much the same reasons. Because it's not actually based on any good evidence at all.

Baggly

Kolido wrote:

Wouldnt be gone on the idea of drafting tbh. I dont think we've ever had a game become unplayable because someone no showed or had to drop out. If you are drafting players to roles because you can trust them to be around then you'd end up drafting the same bunch of players every time.

I know one that came very very close.

As I mentioned above, that was one criteria that I used for my 4 picks. The other mods used different criteria. That's why we had a good mix of players and why the players selected weren't all just our boards bestos.

Banjo

Pter wrote: »

That's a risk in any game (dodgy refs / mods / GM's). It's the issue I raised in D&D discussion a couple of months ago, to no obvious solution. It's a problem the Rand doesn't actually rule out. How easy is it to fix a Rand? Very.

As was pointed out to me for D&D there is always going to be a requirement for trust within a game.

Now what qb and molly and in fairness to ye probably you guys as well have pointed out about the draft meaning mod picks can be anticipated....well I don't know about that. Put aside players won't know there is a draft, even if they do, will they know I picked my picks based off who is best for the role, or based off 'well let's see if he is good in this role' or based off 'lets give the beginners a couple of the power roles to make sure they get experience'. They won't.

And if it was suggested to do a day 1 lynch off the back of 'maybe the mods did a draft' that would be dismissed by a village as quickly as a low poster hunt. For much the same reasons. Because it's not actually based on any good evidence at all.

You're comparing apples to assault rifles. Werewolf is a game with rules. D&D is a game with guidelines. And The Rule Of Cool

Baggly

On the examples, the 10k on one team one is based on the ref profiting, so that doesn't really translate.

The poker one is describing the dealer making tactical changes mid game, not strategic ones pregame. The poker one is more akin to why mods shouldn't tamper with a game while it's ongoing. It's a better argument for why we shouldn't rebalance during a game.

The poker comparison here, I think, is that the player loads the table with people he knows are bad players with one shark.

Baggly

Both are internet forum games banjo. It's not chalk and cheese.

The game in question had rules and they were followed.

A Rand requires just as much trust in the mod team as a draft.

Teddy Daniels

Just skimming, so don’t mind me. I didn’t realise that a schoolyard pick was a possaible way of assigning teams in this game, will this be the case in the LOTR game?

Banjo

Pter wrote: »

Both are internet forum games banjo. It's not chalk and cheese.

The game in question had rules and they were followed.

A Rand requires just as much trust in the mod team as a draft.

I have tried.

Good luck.
May you find a better teacher than I.

Baggly

Appreciate the discussion Banjo!

Baggly

Teddy Daniels wrote: »

Just skimming, so don’t mind me. I didn’t realise that a schoolyard pick was a possaible way of assigning teams in this game, will this be the case in the LOTR game?

Well we are discussing if mods picking players if one way to do it. Do you have any thoughts?

Banjo

Pter wrote: »

Both are internet forum games banjo. It's not chalk and cheese.

Oops, missed this bit. Can't let this go. But I'm ranting and you won't read it all so

Tl;Dr:

In D&D typically the players choose their roles. Why not give that a go next time you're modding Werewolf?

Are they the same?

Baggly

I didnt say they are the same. They just arent as different as apples and assault rifles! Yours is an overly simplistic comparison, but then i did ask for simplicity.

We can agree to disagree?

Banjo

Never
Now put your phone away and drink - you're being antisocial!

Baggly

I will definitely agree to that.

Haha checkmate.

deconduo

quickbeam wrote: »

Another point against non-rand. NRVs are left thinking they weren’t good enough to be given roles. I know someone has to be NRV and not everyone can get a role but it is sorta like being picked last during school sports day.

Look, I’m all for trying new stuff and have no objection that this was tried. But I too would vote for rand only in future.

Agree with this, I think a draft only really works if everyone has a role. With NRVs in the mix it can just feel unfair if its not random.

Banjo wrote: »

Oops, missed this bit. Can't let this go. But I'm ranting and you won't read it all so

Tl;Dr:

In D&D typically the players choose their roles. Why not give that a go next time you're modding Werewolf?

Are they the same?

Ran a few less serious game before like that - where players picked their roles, also one where players picked roles for other people. Overall it worked quite well, and led to some hilarious games.

sKeith

sKeith wrote:

In most games, if similar happened, it would be called cheating.
listing of few games where it would be called cheating;
chess
draughts
poker
scrabble
etc..

Luka Blue Ramp wrote: »

This whole comparison makes no sense mods aren't players they are game creators so they can't cheat only players can cheat as only players can win

sKeith wrote: »

So,

The dealer is in charge of a 3 handed game of poker, and he swaps out player 1's cards which would have been 7 2 with a K J, because that would be more interesting up against player 2's QQ and player 3's AK.


The players have no idea the dealer was manupilating the deck.

Pter wrote: »

On the examples, the 10k on one team one is based on the ref profiting, so that doesn't really translate.

The poker one is describing the dealer making tactical changes mid game, not strategic ones pregame. The poker one is more akin to why mods shouldn't tamper with a game while it's ongoing. It's a better argument for why we shouldn't rebalance during a game.

The poker comparison here, I think, is that the player loads the table with people he knows are bad players with one shark.

That particular example was not in response to any WW discussion, but in response to the "only players can cheat as only players can win" response.


I could have made similar examples for each of the games. Yes, you can call it bias or favoritism or any other name, but is not letting the players play the game fairly and grind out a result. If the player can feel cheated out of that, can it not be called cheating. Mick, I'm not 100% sure either, but i've nearly convinced myself it can be.



All the games I mentioned have rules that can be changed, but if you ever play any of them games, you agree to the rules before the game.


Poker has many variations all with different rules. But once you have declared, we're playing 5 card draw, you'll get serious back looks from the other players if you go and deal yourself 7 cards and everybody else 5 cards.

Necro

Teddy Daniels wrote:

Just skimming, so don't mind me. I didn't realise that a schoolyard pick was a possaible way of assigning teams in this game, will this be the case in the LOTR game?

No. Can confirm game will be done via random assignment on random.org

Necro

I know one thing I've established from this discussion anyways.

Banjo should play more games of WW :P

sKeith

Necro wrote: »

I know one thing I've established from this discussion anyways.

Banjo should play more games of WW :P

And you don't have to watch my hands closely when I'm dealing out the ww cards.

Necro

sKeith wrote: »

And you don't have to watch my hands closely when I'm dealing out the ww cards.

You probably shouldn't watch my hands, I'm a crap shuffler. Likely to drop them all :pac:

duffman13

I'm kinda on QBs line of thinking, not mad on the draft myself. I can see the thoughts of a mod with doing it but we wanna keep on open house and new players would be put off by it, I know I would have been.

The only way I can see it working in any guise is for example there is 10 roles, rand the roles, top 10 names get a role and mods then draft. Still random but even then I'd be hesitant to use it myself and it doesn't solve Pters problems of no shows etc

Mollyb60

While I still think a draft option shouldn't be included in our games, i do love the idea of everyone picking roles for everyone else in a one off game. Each person gets to nominate 3 players for specific role/roles. Mods then rand the nominees and draw up the player list that way.

Bounty Hunter

I'd be happy for a games mods to pick roles for people if it was very occasional and we don't get told. If we know it's not common place we won't read too much into things and think experienced players must have whatever role. Also I can imagine in some games especially ones where they are trying out a new role/twist on the game mods might want to have an experienced head play such a role especially if say that role being in play is something that could even up teams / odds of the teams.

Necro

Kolido wrote: »

Another 2 suggestions I'd like to put forward ( I think they may have been mentioned already) is a dedicated yearly thread that summerises each game (summary can be submitted by game mods). Summary could contain, amoung other things, player/role list, key points in the game, maybe a list of each kill, and a list of content submitted to the wolfies.

Hey Kolido.....

Your wish is my command

Drumpot

Necro wrote: »

Hey Kolido.....

Your wish is my command

I love them summaries as post 2 in a game thread. Think one mod did that one game....