Objecting to the National Anthem

Jimbob1977

It seems that Seattle Seahawks players are planning an unspecified protest against the US National Anthem on Sunday (anniversary of September 11th)

Do you reckon that such protests could spark a response from spectators... like walkouts or no-show at future games? Or will the fans understand the issues and sympathise?

The NFL player population profile is c. 75% black, while fans are predominantly white (and typically patriotic)

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2016/sep/08/seattle-seahawks-team-national-anthem-protest-colin-kaepernick-sunday-opener

LuckyLloyd

This is a cluster **** waiting to happen. The NFL makes a huge effort to tie itself to the military and patriotism.

jack presley

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

The NFL makes a huge effort to tie itself to the military and patriotism.

Only because the military were paying them lots of money!

alchemist33

I don't think "protesting against" or "objecting to" the anthem is accurate here.

Jolly Red Giant

I was delighted to see Brandon Marshall protest last night against 'social injustice' - I applaud Kaepernick for the stand he has taken and support Russell Okung for being one of the first sportspeople to come out in support of him.

I congratulate the intent by Seahawks players to conduct a protest on Sunday.

Despite the torrent of abuse unleashed against Kaepernick and subsequently continued against those who supported him - including more abuse directed at Marshall after his protest - more and more high profile sportspeople are showing a willingness to take a stand. It is a reflections of the deep divisions within American society and a recognition on the need for change (a need that was in part reflected by the widespread support Bernie Sanders received in a rigged Democratic nomination race - Sanders should have told Clinton to get stuffed and run as an independent).

Moist Bread

What social injustice are they protesting against?

Itssoeasy

Moist Bread wrote: »

What social injustice are they protesting against?

The killing of unarmed people(mostly African American) by mostly white cops and the fact that they apparently are getting away with it.

I mean America and Americans go on about freedom of speech and the 1st amendment and that's fine. The weekend that's in it with it being the 15th anniversary of 9/11 on Sunday I think may backfire on the players taking the stand they are taking.

adrian522

Police Brutality against minorities, particularly African Americans. Particularly with the amount of police killings of young black men in places such as Baton Rogue and Chicago recently. Essentially in support of the Black Lives Matter campaign.

As mentioned above, he/they are not protesting against the anthem or the military or anything like that. Sunday is the 15th anniversary of the 9/11 attacks so expect the military jingoism to be ratcheted up a notch (if that is even possible).

The whole military praise and association is something I've always been pretty uncomfortable with when it comes to the NFL to be honest.

TOss Sweep

Itssoeasy wrote: »

The killing of unarmed people(mostly African American) by mostly white cops and the fact that they apparently are getting away with it.

Well this is the thing Police brutality in general is getting worse here but it isn't just white cops. Some of the cops involved in these unarmed shootings have been black also or Hispanic.

The problem is the establishment is protecting ALL officers and not punishing those who shoot unarmed folk or brutally beat unarmed folk.

From what I read Kap is standing up or in this case sitting/kneeling down in protest against the establishment and the killings of unarmed African Americans. Not once did he mention the color of the officers skin which to be fair to Kap shows he is tune with the situation.

I don't get the whole big deal with it. If he doesn't what to stand that is his choice the end. This country is nuts for freedom of speech until someone disagrees with what you have to say. Mad it is Ted. Mad.

12gauge dave

I bet you they have no problem cashing in there american pay cheques.

Stop paying them and we shall see how long protests go on for.

Jayop

12gauge dave wrote: »

I bet you they have no problem cashing in there american pay cheques.

Stop paying them and we shall see how long protests go on for.

Why would they? They're Americans, born in America, earning their pay checks in America.

Such nonsense.

12gauge dave

Jayop wrote: »

Why would they? They're Americans, born in America, earning their pay checks in America.

Such nonsense.

But yet not american enough for the national anthem?

Jayop

12gauge dave wrote: »

But yet not american enough for the national anthem?

Is that a rule?

Dirty Dingus McGee

This whole debate is hilarious as it went from being one player doing something to make a point about social injustice in America and yet the whole thing has been framed as if he has an issue with the military despite the protest having nothing whatsoever to do with the military.

It's if these idiots forgot that the anthem is actually for all the people in a country and not just the military.

Americans have a real talent for embarrassment.

Son Of A Vidic

adrian522 wrote: »

The whole military praise and association is something I've always been pretty uncomfortable with when it comes to the NFL to be honest.

I agree and it should not be associated with the NFL imo. The American establishment and it's disturbing over glorification of war, is almost Nuremberg-esque in nature. Glorifying their cannon fodder warriors sacrifice, keeps war in the national psyche and justifies them being the most overly militarised nation on the planet. Certain elements of the American power structure need their frequent wars, since it's good for business and their vested interests. But if the American flag & anthem is supposed to stand for what it's claimed to stand for, then any citizen has the right to turn their back, sit down, lie down or do whatever they want during the national anthem. Unfortunately though in the States, worship of the flag & anthem has reached an unhealthy level. And even more disturbing, the flag, it's association with their war machine and sport, have long become inextricably linked. To such a point where Kap taking a simple knee to protest the brutalisation of minorities, has been treated as an attack on the military and many treat that as blasphemy.

Now that shouldn't happen in any democracy, but that's the way hypocrisy rolls I suppose. But fair play to Kap, he is absolutely right to make such a dignified protest and I wish more would. The advances in technology and the age of social media has exposed the American illusion as a beacon for civil rights. Because civil rights abuses, racial discrimination, police brutality and unjustified killings are alive and doing better than ever across America. And there have been so many cases, it's hard to single out just one. Which is all the more tragic, since it's all happening during the watch of a sitting African American puppet president. Kap has put a serious issue front and center, but rather than analyse the reasons for his protest. It's much easier for the establishment to question his loyalty and patriotism. Yet in reality Kap is the true patriot, angry that what his country's anthem anthem & flag is supposed to represent, doesn't seem to be manifesting in lives of minorities in many places across America.

Fr Tod Umptious

Kaepernick is an idiot.

Wearing a Fidel Castro tee shirt while going on about oppression.

I doubt he would be doing any of this if he was still the starting QB.

AbusesToilets

Are they going to protest the number of black people killed by other black people?

Or acknowledge that black men are responsible for the majority of murders that occur annually, despite the small fraction they represent of the total population?

Or are they going to acknowledge that more white people are killed by cops annually than black people?

So tired of the media boiling every issue down into a race baiting affair, and ignoring the reality of the situation.

gitzy16v

im sure someone with more post count could link the pic of kapernick wearing socks depicting cops as pigs....he who should be without sin cast the first stone,,,or something like that

AbusesToilets

To be clear, I support Kaep and others right to protest and I think the outrage over it is fairly disgraceful. I don't agree with the views he has put forth on the situation but I'll be damned if I think that someone should be shamed into not standing up for what they believe in.

gitzy16v

he's right no doubt...theres a problem but you gotta be clean when making such a statement...i may be wrong but was one of the cops in the baton rouge shooting not black himself???
its not a race thing in my mind more of a we are better then you police thing

Richard Hillman

Kaepernick is a punk. His newly found copycat friends are just attention seeking sheep.

The 49ers should have just cut him and this "trend" would have disappeared quickly.

I hope to see him play at some stage because him getting sacked badly will be of the most beautiful things ever seen.

UnitedIrishman

He may not be totally correct in how he goes about it and some of his methods like the pigs dressed as cops pictures on his socks are idiotic but I'm glad to see someone taking a somewhat principled stand and not just following the 'Ra Ra Murica' that follows the game. And anyways, the NFL only does this **** because it's beneficial to them, much the same as their Breast Cancer Awareness month which raises a tiny percentage for cancer awareness. And God forbid any player tries to do their bit to raise awareness for a cause.

BKWDR

Marshall has had endorsements cut after taking a knee... Be interesting to see who follows now

Dirty Dingus McGee

Richard Hillman wrote: »

Kaepernick is a punk. His newly found copycat friends are just attention seeking sheep.

The 49ers should have just cut him and this "trend" would have disappeared quickly.

I hope to see him play at some stage because him getting sacked badly will be of the most beautiful things ever seen.

So making a peaceful protest means you should lose your job.Just shows how right Kaepernick and anyone who wants to do this is as if going against the establishment means you should be sacked then surely it shows how unbelievably idiotic/brainwashed a large percentage of people in America must be.He's perfectly entitled to make this protest if he wants and should be allowed to do as he pleases without any chance of losing his job.

poldebruin

It's hard for us to have the same perspective as in America though. You can say the flag and anthem shouldn't have such close ties with the military, but it does and any protest directed at either will be perceived as an affront or unpatriotic by a vast swarth of the population. We do have an analogue (in a ways) with the recent James McClean controversy over the wearing of the poppy. Some saw it as an insult to the military and country he was making a living in, others thought his protest embodied everything that was great about Great Britain (or England or what not)

I can see it from both sides, peaceful protest should be encouraged as part of the checks and balances of a healthy nation state, if the part of the population feel cowed into observing the status quo, no matter the rights or wrongs, that is a dangerous state of affairs.

However, (and I'm going to use a bit of the old slippery slope argument here) if everyone of the 53 man roster was using the national anthem to protest about one thing or another, it would quickly descend into farce. Maybe someone turns their back in protest at the troops in Iraq. Someone wear a blindfold to protest the disproportionate amount of minorities in prison, and so on.

Would it not be better to do this as a one off, the issue has been raised, and spend private time protesting/volunteering/donating within the community etc.

I'm not particularly nationalistic myself, but I'm not sure how I would feel if one of the Irish Rugby or Football team turned their backs on the Irish flag or sat during the anthem in protest at the 8th ammendment for example. Would I recongnise it as a right to protest, or would I see it as an affront to the country and it's history?

From a purely selfish/sports fan/Team's perspective, am I concerned their heads not in the right place for the game, is adding an unwanted distraction or causing rifts in the locker room? If the answer is yes, then it is a valid reason to either drop them as a starter, or cut them from the squad. I don't think any team would be concerend if this stance was being taken on their own time.

eagle eye

I don't mind somebody protesting over something like this. I think Kaepernick feels he is doing the right thing and I applaud him for having the courage to stand up, or in this case not stand up, for what he believes in. It's nice to see that others have followed him down this path too. It's a subject that certainly needs to be talk about a lot.

I don't agree with their take on it personally. The big problem in the USA is guns and until they outlaw them everywhere then I think you will have shootings because cops are there to uphold the law but they are literally putting their lives on the line every time they respond to an incident. Fact of the matter is that when they respond to a call, in most places, they have to approach every situation with probably a 90% or higher probability that there is a gun at the scene.

Like if you are a husband and father you certainly don't want to die on the job and on that bad day you can make a mistake where you believe your life is in danger and you shoot an unarmed man. I don't think we could even imagine how traumatic this is for the officer who fired the shot. I understand that it's a horrible traumatic thing for the family and friends of the victim. I'm sure there are cops out there who don't give a continental but I'd imagine over 99% of them would be deeply scarred for life if they shot an unarmed man.

Just so you know, anybody over 17 is legally entitled to carry a gun in Baton Rouge. It's more difficult to get a gun, legally, in Chicago but anybody over 21 who doesn't have a record can get one.

BKWDR

Dirty Dingus McGee wrote: »

So making a peaceful protest means you should lose your job.Just shows how right Kaepernick and anyone who wants to do this is as if going against the establishment means you should be sacked then surely it shows how unbelievably idiotic/brainwashed a large percentage of people in America must be.He's perfectly entitled to make this protest if he wants and should be allowed to do as he pleases without any chance of losing his job.

In fairness you can be fired from any job for bringing an organisation into disrepute. And in the NFL especially they seem to flagrantly cut players for no reason. Throw into the mix sponsorships and massive endorsements etc etc and how the NFL is intertwined with the military

The niners have gone from super bowl contenders to free fall, before this there were people questioning if Kaep was the right fit Anyways

Dirty Dingus McGee

BKWDR wrote: »

In fairness you can be fired from any job for bringing an organisation into disrepute. And in the NFL especially they seem to flagrantly cut players for no reason. Throw into the mix sponsorships and massive endorsements etc etc and how the NFL is intertwined with the military

The niners have gone from super bowl contenders to free fall, before this there were people questioning if Kaep was the right fit Anyways

If not standing up for the national anthem is bringing an organisation into disrepute then things are seriously ****ed up.

You can't force people to be patriotic, he's doing absolutely no harm to anybody.

It's really insane how obsessed they are with the military over there and America is supposed to be the land of the free so it's highly hypocritical to be criticizing him for this stance when the military are supposed to be protecting the exact freedoms he's being criticized for exercising.

I suppose the criticism he is receiving is all part of the brainwash to convince people being in the military is the greatest thing in the world and demands instant respect and thus attracts people to join it because of the gratification they will receive from people.

JaMarcusHustle

Not joining in the national anthem is fine. No issue with him doing that.

Wearing socks with picture of pigs as policemen is just provocative and attention-seeking. Should be punished for that.

BoJack Horseman

Colin has somewhat left things rather open ended.
He's protesting 'oppression' & 'injustice' & black people being killed by police officers.

So, he has in effect decided that he will be protesting in this fashion for the remainder of his career.

"oppression" is not really there, therefore it's presence or absence is impossible to quantify & seems arbitrary.
"injustice" is one of those universal constants, injustice is everywhere and in everything..... again, impossible to eliminate and measure.

Police killings is interesting, perhaps he has already articulated but he should cite examples where police assailants get off scot-free.
I imagine those instances are quite rare, if at all.
Much more common are those civilians who shoot people and get away with it by simply not being caught (a massive injustice).

If he decides to end his protest, it will be at an arbitrary point in time when what he's protesting about will still be in existence.
Ergo pointless, though no doubt he will cling to "raising awareness".
Or he will do this for every remaining game of his career.


As an aside, I was looking at the shooting stats for Chicago.
- 78% of those shot in the city are black (397 persons).
- 80% of those identified as the shooter are black.

- CPD officers killed 6 persons in the year to date, injuring 12 others
- 8 CPD officers have themselves been shot


I quite like Kaepernik, he's very smart & always seemed a really nice guy.
He should be more honest though.
The black community seems to have massive injustices perpetrated against them..... if he's honest he needs to acknowledge that it's mainly perpetrated by the black community upon themselves.

Jolly Red Giant

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

Colin has somewhat left things rather open ended.
He's protesting 'oppression' & 'injustice' & black people being killed by police officers.

So, he has in effect decided that he will be protesting in this fashion for the remainder of his career.

"oppression" is not really there, therefore it's presence or absence is impossible to quantify & seems arbitrary.
"injustice" is one of those universal constants, injustice is everywhere and in everything..... again, impossible to eliminate and measure.

Police killings is interesting, perhaps he has already articulated but he should cite examples where police assailants get off scot-free.
I imagine those instances are quite rare, if at all.
Much more common are those civilians who shoot people and get away with it by simply not being caught (a massive injustice).

If he decides to end his protest, it will be at an arbitrary point in time when what he's protesting about will still be in existence.
Ergo pointless, though no doubt he will cling to "raising awareness".
Or he will do this for every remaining game of his career.


As an aside, I was looking at the shooting stats for Chicago.
- 78% of those shot in the city are black (397 persons).
- 80% of those identified as the shooter are black.

- CPD officers killed 6 persons in the year to date, injuring 12 others
- 8 CPD officers have themselves been shot


I quite like Kaepernik, he's very smart & always seemed a really nice guy.
He should be more honest though.
The black community seems to have massive injustices perpetrated against them..... if he's honest he needs to acknowledge that it's mainly perpetrated by the black community upon themselves.

You are far more likely to be killed by police in the US if you are black than if you are white. And the number of people being killed by police is rising.

So far this year 810 people have been killed by police in the US - in the same period 38 police officers have been shot dead.

One of the latest incidents was in Florida when a 56 year old black man carrying a knife was shot dead by two policemen. The man's sister said she called the police because of a domestic disturbance but when they arrived he was sitting on his own in the back yard with a pocket knife in his hand. If this guy was white it is likely that they would have tried to disarm him instead of shooting him.