Solar Farm

Coill1

Hi all
My neighbour has signed up for a solar farm. We're both close to a sub station & have relatively flat land.
Does anyone know what kind of annual rent per acre these solar companies offer? I'm tempted by the lure of guaranteed & index linked income, or is it just too good to be true? I have the required 30 acres also.
Thanks

Sam Kade

Something like 2k an acre, there was a thread on here about it a few weeks ago.

blue5000

I heard 1k an acre, index linked for 20 years, There's an extra payment if you can graze it with sheep, it saves them cutting the grass between the panels. There must be more than 1 company offering it so. OP any harm to ask how near the sub-station is the land?

OverRide

It's actually quite a bit more than 2k an acre p.a (Iirc nearly double that) but you lose your EU payments
You can keep sheep to graze around the panels
It's not going to make you up
I was approached which is how I know

_Brian

Suppose hilly, rushy, damp, soft Cavan land would be of no use for this either

Bullocks

_Brian wrote: »

Suppose hilly, rushy, damp, soft Cavan land would be of no use for this either

The panels would have to able to float !

Coill1

Thanks for the replies-yeah I'm less than 1 km from a sub station. For the Cavan Man as far as I know the land has to be fairly flat, & within 3km from nearest substation - though I've just recently started looking into it all so very open to correction / direction.

bullnuts

We were approached by a wind mill company! Would rather solar panals I think ! Wind mills will get a lot of opposition I feel and could cause friction in our parish! The other hand we could badly do with the revenue

rangler1

OverRide wrote: »

It's actually quite a bit more than 2k an acre p.a (Iirc nearly double that) but you lose your EU payments
You can keep sheep to graze around the panels
It's not going to make you up
I was approached which is how I know

€1000/ac/yr is the best I've heard, who'is offering 2000

rangler1

IFA had a seminar on solar panels two mths ago.
This is a link to the presentations, it's only the bullet points on power point, but it flags some of the problems/risks,
There will be another seminar in a couple of mths.
http://www.ifa.ie/cross-sectors/renewables/solar-a-real-opportunity/

rushvalley

bullnuts wrote: »

We were approached by a wind mill company! Would rather solar panals I think ! Wind mills will get a lot of opposition I feel and could cause friction in our parish! The other hand we could badly do with the revenue

Never really understood the dislike people have towards windmills, they're surely nicer looking than pipes from the likes of money point

Water John

The general run is €1K/yr as Rangler said. The substation may have limitations. It may only take one 5Mw solar farm, 20 acres, without significant upgrade spend, making it non viable.
I think one co has offered up to €1,400 but I'd be wary as they have no way of knowing the price being paid for the electricity.
Some Co's have a lot of irons in the fire.
Most projects are south of the Dublin Limerick line. there is 10/15% more irridation in Cork than Donegal.

No harm in finding out. If you contact any of the companies they should tell you the availability at the substation.

PM me if you want some names.

OverRide

rangler1 wrote: »

IFA had a seminar on solar panels two mths ago.
This is a link to the presentations, it's only the bullet points on power point, but it flags some of the problems/risks,
There will be another seminar in a couple of mths.
http://www.ifa.ie/cross-sectors/renewables/solar-a-real-opportunity/

I couldn't tell you it's about 2 yrs ago I was approached and only remember the all in headline total and you are right it was per Hectare
Little wonder I binned the literature

Birdnuts

rushvalley wrote: »

Never really understood the dislike people have towards windmills, they're surely nicer looking than pipes from the likes of money point

Wind power needs constant back up by conventional power plants so no matter how many you build the likes of Moneypoint will always be needed. Indeed Moneypoint worked overtime last year despite the massive subsidy driven spend on windpower in this country to date

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/greenhouse-gas-emissions-rise-in-key-sectors-393935.html

"The greater use of the coal-fired plant at Moneypoint for electricity generation last year (its emissions increased by 20%) was the main factor in the overall national increase in power generation emissions."

Personally I think the money thrown at wind power would be better spent reducing demand and peoples energy bills via retrofitting houses and buildings etc.. But like everything else in this country government policy in this area is about pandering to the most powerfull vested interests.

Birdnuts

Coill1 wrote: »

Thanks for the replies-yeah I'm less than 1 km from a sub station. For the Cavan Man as far as I know the land has to be fairly flat, & within 3km from nearest substation - though I've just recently started looking into it all so very open to correction / direction.

The level of refit support for solar will be the biggest factor determining what if any of these proposed solar farms see the light of day(pardon the pun). Solar at this scale at Irelands latitude is rather dubious economically given the pattern of energy demand in this country ie. it peaks during the hours of darkness and in winter for obvious reasons. Therefore the REFIT subsidy will have to be quiet substantial to make these farms pay. Given that the government have yet to announce a support scheme for solar I would be wary of signing anything on the back of glossy brochures and PR spin on potential payment by these companies.

Water John

To be clear, South of Ireland has about the same irridiation levels as Germany. Solar has been in Germany for years.
If the EU did not have a tarriff on the importation of panels the Refit support could be lower.
The tariff will be there in 12/18 months time.
A 5MW/25ac solar farm can be built by a team of 100, in 14 weeks.
It will happen to a significant scale. A lot of build will take place in about 3 years.
Hopefully, AD and Micro Generation will be backed too.

Birdnuts

Water John wrote: »

To be clear, South of Ireland has about the same irridiation levels as Germany. Solar has been in Germany for years.
.

Don't think Germany is a great example. They have spent vast amounts supporting solar and wind and still coal is the largest power source. They also have the second highest energy bills in the EU.

http://www.economist.com/news/europe/21594336-germanys-new-super-minister-energy-and-economy-has-his-work-cut-out-sunny-windy-costly

Even in Spain solar appears to struggle without heavy government support

http://phys.org/news/2013-06-spanish-downturn-disaster-green-energy.html

Mooooo

One thing about all these supposedly clean energy sources is they all need support which eventually the consumer will pay for. I know we import a lot of fuel anyway but does Germany not have one of the highest energy costs in the EU due to its renewable strategy's?

Water John

The OP asked about his prospects for his land. I answered with the knowledge I have of the industry. If his land is suitable and there is room in the substation, I think he should act on it.
He thus needs to find out what is in his best interest, legal, financial and ensuring the project is completed.

Birdnuts

Mooooo wrote: »

One thing about all these supposedly clean energy sources is they all need support which eventually the consumer will pay for. I know we import a lot of fuel anyway but does Germany not have one of the highest energy costs in the EU due to its renewable strategy's?

Pretty much - and its a trend that can be seen across Europe

http://www.euanmearns.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/europeelectricprice.png

Water John

Maybe some lands are suitable for fracking. That debate should be some fun. It would certainly keep electricity prices low.
Our means of generation, that lowers our dependence on Putin or the Saudis. At present those are wind and solar.
The next phase to be added to that then is storage, which is coming.

Birdnuts

Water John wrote: »

Maybe some lands are suitable for fracking. That debate should be some fun. It would certainly keep electricity prices low.
Our means of generation, that lowers our dependence on Putin or the Saudis. At present those are wind and solar.
The next phase to be added to that then is storage, which is coming.

Most of the problems with fracking occurred with early projects before proper regulations came in. Anyway not going to derail this thread going into the ins and out of that topic. On your other point the evidence really isn't there to date to support the contention that wind/solar significantly reduces reliance on imported fossil fuels. I've already cited the case of Moneypoint and not one conventional power plant has been shut down here or anywhere else on the back of wind/solar. Theres talk of pumped storage but that can only real make a difference in a country with a suitable Geography that will support it to grid scale. Only Norway has come anywhere near to that, but very few countries are blessed with Norways vast hydro power potential in terms of its geography. Micro-generation might get a boost from better battery storage technology, but grid scale storage is still a pipe dream in reality.


PS: Didn't the ESB cut support for micro-generation recently?? Typical Irish approach really as similar to many other sectors the big players have the ear of the powers that be when it comes to policy in this area

SmartinMartin

Water John wrote: »

The general run is €1K/yr as Rangler said. The substation may have limitations. It may only take one 5Mw solar farm, 20 acres, without significant upgrade spend, making it non viable.
I think one co has offered up to €1,400 but I'd be wary as they have no way of knowing the price being paid for the electricity.
Some Co's have a lot of irons in the fire.
Most projects are south of the Dublin Limerick line. there is 10/15% more irridation in Cork than Donegal.

No harm in finding out. If you contact any of the companies they should tell you the availability at the substation.

PM me if you want some names.

Could you let me know of a couple of reputable firms please

Water John

Martin, will do over the weekend.

paddysdream

As far as I know the refit tariff will not be announced until January 2017.This will decide the price paid per acre by the companies involved.At 12 cent per unit this would equate to about 1100 to 1200 per acre per year.Lower refit tariff would obiviously mean less per acre.
Think the companies involved are looking for 20 plus acres together within 3 miles or so of a suitable substation.
Think that you lose 30% of your BPS on the ground involved even if you graze underneath with sheep.
All that from a friend who has been approached and will probably go ahead on 40 acres assuming the tariff is attractive enough for the company involved.Know that he is ready to sign up as soon as it gets the go ahead and has gone through the figures as it is earmarked for major investment in other land.
Think the big issue could be that the land involved may be treated as commercial property rather than agricultural for inheritance purposes etc.

Water John

Paddy, your friend would want to get good tax advice.
It might be in his interest to put this end of his business into a Co.
Jan 17 is very optimistic and may be what he has been told by the developer.
He has good faith in them if he is ready to sign, only when the details come out.
As it stands, all he has is some developers interest. Sadly, in Ireland that may not count for a whole lot. They may play him against a couple of other farmers in the area. The key limiting factor is the substation capacity. Suitable sites are not as limited as those suitable for wind farms.
Hope this isn't negative, but realistic. Some developers very honourable, others sharks.
3 miles is 5km and would be considered a long distance. then all the parameters will continually change. If the bid in prices is the way it goes, the push on all cost areas could be strong.

You know more than me on the BPS etc and thanks.

paddysdream

Water John wrote: »

Paddy, your friend would want to get good tax advice.
It might be in his interest to put this end of his business into a Co.
Jan 17 is very optimistic and may be what he has been told by the developer.
He has good faith in them if he is ready to sign, only when the details come out.
As it stands, all he has is some developers interest. Sadly, in Ireland that may not count for a whole lot. They may play him against a couple of other farmers in the area. The key limiting factor is the substation capacity. Suitable sites are not as limited as those suitable for wind farms.
Hope this isn't negative, but realistic. Some developers very honourable, others sharks.
3 miles is 5km and would be considered a long distance. then all the parameters will continually change. If the bid in prices is the way it goes, the push on all cost areas could be strong.

You know more than me on the BPS etc and thanks.

Think he would be aware of the tax implications etc.
Next January is the earliest that the tariff will be announced but like you say that could be optimistic.
Lets just say he hasn't spent any of it yet!!
He is looking at it to provide the cashflow for a different and new venture and if it doesn't happen then no harm done.

Chuchote

bullnuts wrote: »

We were approached by a wind mill company! Would rather solar panals I think ! Wind mills will get a lot of opposition I feel and could cause friction in our parish! The other hand we could badly do with the revenue

Trouble is that the windmill companies never have the sense to offer free electricity to people living within, say, a kilometre for the first few years. That would shut the opposition up sharpish!

Scotland powered all its electricity for a day by wind recently https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2016/aug/11/scotland-completely-powered-by-wind-turbines-for-a-day It's a changing scene.

Main problem with fracking is that it uses thousands and thousands of gallons of water, unconscionable amounts that dwarf the problems of drinking water for Dublin.

Water John

I'd be wary of fracking affecting ground water. Don't know what chemicals they use with the water that they inject.
If we harvest the wind and the sun, over time and with tech developing it should provide us with most of our electricity.

To go carbon neutral our present electricity production needs to be X 4.

Chuchote

Water John wrote: »

I'd be wary of fracking affecting ground water. Don't know what chemicals they use with the water that they inject.
If we harvest the wind and the sun, over time and with tech developing it should provide us with most of our electricity.

To go carbon neutral our present electricity production needs to be X 4.

And if we can develop technology to harvest energy from the tides, we'll be laughing. The windiest and waviest country in Europe…

The lads from the Eco-Village in Cloughjordan got an EU green grant to provide green improvements to their houses, and to those living within a kilometre, I think it was; virtually everyone around got things like hot-water solar panels, wood-burning stoves and/or state-of-the-art insulation. You had to put up something like €2k, if I remember right, and the other €2k was the grant. Would be worth asking them what the grant was and how they got it. It involved having a substantial number of people committed to taking up the grant and doing the improvements in a specific area, I think.

Mooooo

The major cost of renewables is the in efficiency which is brought to the supply as the power plants are still going to be needed in reserve, and paid for, for the still dull cloudy days and peak demands. The closest countries to us in Europe have nuclear power, the step for us to go that way shouldn't be as big as it is given the fact they are so close obviously the Sellafield site being the main one any perceived accident risk is there already.

Water John

The Thorium Salt reactor which is very safe and doesn't produce very long term radioactive material will be the type to look forward to.
It is also has variable output, quickly adjustable and thus will dovetail very well with wind and solar.

robcass78

Water John wrote: »

Martin, will do over the weekend.

Would value the same too; have 25 acres x 2.

I've come across Power Capital.

I'm more interested in financing the project and doing PPA or revenue share; much more money.

Our energy is 90% imported. From UK. And the recent Brexit doesn't guarantee supply, with potential duty now to be added (14%); a reason why UK farmers went with solar/helped by government.

In some countries, cost is now 4c, with grid @ 15c, so gaining the 11c. Gov subsidies necessary to build the scale but now self-sufficient; there is a reason why solar is 80% of all new energy projects globally...$300bn invested last year. Just not Ireland; we're 2nd worst in EU.

robcass78

Birdnuts wrote: »

Pretty much - and its a trend that can be seen across Europe


And this includes the power generates for their Electrovehicle car's, saving 3-4k a year per household on petrol/diesel and further 2k on home energy?

Danzy

The money would buy a lot of therapy and counselling.

Danzy

Mooooo wrote: »

The major cost of renewables is the in efficiency which is brought to the supply as the power plants are still going to be needed in reserve, and paid for, for the still dull cloudy days and peak demands. The closest countries to us in Europe have nuclear power, the step for us to go that way shouldn't be as big as it is given the fact they are so close obviously the Sellafield site being the main one any perceived accident risk is there already.

Problem with Nuclear is the cost in building and dealing with the byproduct, there is a reason why private companies don't touch it with a barge pole and it is largely reliant on State intervention.


I have no problem with Nuclear, it has a place in the mix but while the electricity produced is cheap the tax payer gets an almighty beating in the building, day to day costs, insurance, and clean up costs.

Water John

Thorium reactor is quite different. Very little reactive byproduct. One built in the 60's in USA but line not continued because it did not suit the military.
Being looked at again. Much lower capital cost as it doesn't need the safety dome shield. Smaller units can be built too.

Mooooo

The issue also tho is in both Germany and california where large amounts of solar and wind have been put in, the actual amount of clean energy produced, which nuclear is considered, has actually reduced because of the discontinuation of some nuclear facilities. The renewables have not been able to replace the lost output. Also nuclear reactors can supply electricity something 97% of the time whereas solar and wind is totally up and down. I know it's not straight forward but If countries are serious about getting off of fossil fuels it has to be considered.
Watch a ted talk the other day and there.was a survey done about the most favoured forms of generation and the bottom in 3 least favoured in coal, nuclear and oil. People would prefer to use oil over nuclear

Chuchote

Have a Californian friend who has solar panels for electricity, and likes to watch her meter running backwards for a bit of entertainment.

Water John

Nuclear has a very specific frame in peoples minds, a la Carnsore of the 1970's of which I would be one with.
Thorium is different and can be varied in output very rapidly making it an ideal dovetail generator source with wind and solar.
Its unfair for people to simply blame wind and solar for their intermittency. We are part of the way along the road of low/zero carbon emissions and storage is also a developing technology.

Danzy

Water John wrote: »

Nuclear has a very specific frame in peoples minds, a la Carnsore of the 1970's of which I would be one with.
Thorium is different and can be varied in output very rapidly making it an ideal dovetail generator source with wind and solar.
Its unfair for people to simply blame wind and solar for their intermittency. We are part of the way along the road of low/zero carbon emissions and storage is also a developing technology.

I would have no problem with a Thorium reactor but any Nuclear option currently on the table is a white elephant.

Water John

Agreed.

99nsr125

What about the heavy water reactors.
Everybody always seems to forget about them

Iloverain

Hi. Had a solar farm developer approach me a few months ago to rent the farm for the 25 Years I think it was. At the time I wasn’t interested as it would have affected my tax allowances as I had only received the farm 3 years ago. Does anyone know if the recent changes in the budget would mean that I could rent it to them tax free??

Water John

Not very clear. Was this for wind or solar?
It won't be designated non agricultural anyway, is my understanding and tax free income lease applies to solar. Not sure but think the leasing co will also require a Herd No.
You need to look for specialist advice, not your general Solr or accountant

alps

Water John wrote: »

Not very clear. Was this for wind or solar?
It won't be designated non agricultural anyway, is my understanding and tax free income lease applies to solar. Not sure but think the leasing co will also require a Herd No.
You need to look for specialist advice, not your general Solr or accountant

The lease will be non agricultural, and will not attract tax free income..(do you want to drive dawg completely mad)..

It will be treated as unearned income.

Would love to hear any factual advise otherwise..

Iloverain

Water John wrote: »

Not very clear. Was this for wind or solar?
It won't be designated non agricultural anyway, is my understanding and tax free income lease applies to solar. Not sure but think the leasing co will also require a Herd No.
You need to look for specialist advice, not your general Solr or accountant

Sorry ment to say solar. Yea I plan on going to a solicitor alright just wanted to have an idea before I went

Iloverain

alps wrote: »

The lease will be non agricultural, and will not attract tax free income..(do you want to drive dawg completely mad)..

It will be treated as unearned income.

Would love to hear any factual advise otherwise..

I seen this on the Farmers journal but not sure if that means I’d be ok to rent it before the first 5 Years of having the farm is up.

www.farmersjournal.ie/amp/budget-2018-solar-panels-to-qualify-as-an-agricultural-activity-314978

4068ac1elhodqr

This is how you do solar/wind farms:



I.e. create an artificial island for it, somewhere out of the way, and roll the extension lead out.
Irish territory is 90% below the waterline, most of it is very windy/tidal/sunny. Plenty of space.

alps

Iloverain wrote: »

I seen this on the Farmers journal but not sure if that means I’d be ok to rent it before the first 5 Years of having the farm is up.

www.farmersjournal.ie/amp/budget-2018-solar-panels-to-qualify-as-an-agricultural-activity-314978

Only for Capital Acquisitions and Capital Gains Tax....its not a change to the income tax treatment.

Iloverain

alps wrote: »

Only for Capital Acquisitions and Capital Gains Tax....its not a change to the income tax treatment.

But if it qualifies as an agricultural activity surely the tax free rent for long term lease should apply? That would be my reading of it anyway😅😅