Licence Refusal

diveshark

Just been refused my renewal for rifle.
I'm putting in my appeal and need a solicitor to represent me, in south dublin.
Can anyone recommend a solicitor who would have experience with this?

thanks in advance

BattleCorp

diveshark wrote: »

Just been refused my renewal for rifle.
I'm putting in my appeal and need a solicitor to represent me, in south dublin.
Can anyone recommend a solicitor who would have experience with this?

thanks in advance

Did you receive your refusal in writing?

diveshark

yes.

Just looking to talk it through with a solicitor who may have dealt with a refusal before.
thanks.

Bad_alibi

If your willing to say, can you let us know the grounds for refusal.

diveshark

rather not on the public forum. I know that doesn't help people help me.
what is strange is that I have had them in my possession for 2yrs 10 months since my issue and they are only being refused now.

Cass

The thing with the FCR is they are not actually a renewal, even though we use the term, they are re-applications. IOW you must re-apply every three years for a new license for the guns you have in your possession.

Renewals mean a continuation of licensing which carries a certain inference or guarantee of success. Re-application means you must show, once again, that you need the firearm and have good reason for it.

Now none of this helps you, nor can we unless we know what the reason was. You won't be pushed for an answer, and frankly if you were to give a reason nothing we say here should be construed as legal advice and NOT acted upon without doing what you are currently trying to do. Talk to a solicitor.

There can be many reasons for a refusal. Your circumstances have changed, you haven't bought a single round of ammo (they can check this) and so as far as they are concerned you're not using the firearm, you don't visit the range or are no longer a member of the range/club that you were when you got the guns.

Of course there are other factors with a legal basis. A conviction for one. This is something most people don't want to discuss on an open forum and most definitely not if it's still on going.


Whatever the reason i hope you get it sorted and get your guns back. For the time being you need to get the guns into storage before your licenses expire as you will not have the licenses until the case is sorted and that could take months if not longer. If your licenses expire and you are still in possession of your firearms then you're in possession of an unlicensed firearm(s).

So get them into storage before the licenses lapse.

Best of luck.

diveshark

Cass, thank you for the post.
I took the decision to put the guns into storage once I was aware of the refusal, which was in advance of the written notification. Didn't want them flung around a station for the next few months regardless of whether I get them back or not, as the next owner deserves them in good condition if I fail in my task. So all clear on that front.
I will get in contact with a solicitor to see of they can help.

Cheers

diveshark

I'm getting a lot of mixed advice re: what to do in advance of the appeal. Is it worth while writing to the super and outlining my position? Is it worth asking to speak/meet with him or would that just antagonise the situation. Or just head straight to the appeal to put my case forward.

Cass

Generally i'd advise someone to talk to the Super if they tell you, verbally, that they intend to refuse or give some other indicator of an impending refusal.

However if the refusal is issued then to me their mind is made up so its pointless.

One thing that has not been made clear so far. You say you were made aware of the refusal but have not received the actual refusal.How were you made aware of the refusal? Did the Super ring you to say they were being refused? Did someone else ring you? The refusal is not "real" until you get a letter stating as much and if you were told by anyone other than the Super then it's not worth the paper it's written on, metaphorically.

Grizzly 45

You need the refusal letter before you can proceed as you need to be able to see on paper what reasons you are being refused on.

2] Apply to meet the Super and try to iron out what the problem is Face 2 face.Be careful of keeping your cool,as some of these ^^^ will deliberately try to provoke a reaction out of you so they can refuse you on grounds of being hot tempered or some such BS.

3] If they refuse to see or meet or dont acknowledge your corrospondence,[which I would hand deliver personally to the station noting day ,date,time and name of the Garda on duty who took it .] Then is when you start looking for a lawyer.

EDIT.
Sorry,see you already have the refusal letter.So then your next stop is stage 2.Go and make an appointment to meet your Super.

gunny123

Has anything changed in your circumstances since you applied for the rifle licence three years back ? Are you still a member of the same club or have you left it ? Did you get a caution or were you investigated for something ? If it is the same super, and nothing has changed since your last application, he is sort of contradicting himself, it was ok last time, but not this time.

diveshark

Apologies I think I laid out the time line incorrectly. I got issued my licences and then 2 months later I had a bump with the law. They left me with the firearms for the following 2 years 10months with no issue. Then on reapplication they were refused. If anyone knows of a solicitor in or around Dublin I could call it would be appreciated.
Thanks for all the posts to date.

Grizzly 45

Might as well go for broke and talk to William Egan,he is one of the most experianced solrs up there on firearms laws.

diveshark

cheers

PSXDupe

Is also depends a lot of what you mean by "I had a bump with the law"

diveshark

PSXDupe wrote: »

Is also depends a lot of what you mean by "I had a bump with the law"

I'm fully aware of that, thanks for the post.

gunny123

If your bump with the law involved threatening behaviour or a drunken scuffle outside a chipper at 2am, then you maybe wasting your time appealing. The super will say you are prone to violent behaviour, not to be trusted with a lethal weapon and i don't see a court taking the risk and disagreeing with him.

diveshark

very fair point.

k31

While none of us know the circumstances of your "bump" with the law it would seem strange that your Superintendent would leave you for two years and ten months in possession of firearms if he believed you to be a danger to the public. Probably no harm to talk it through with William Egan and see what he thinks.

diveshark

Yes that seems to be the strange part alright. I have put a call into William Egan's office and am just awaiting a return call.

Cheers.

FISMA.

Cass wrote: »

However if the refusal is issued then to me their mind is made up so its pointless.

Generally, I would tend to agree with this. The Supt has made up his mind and laid down his cards.

However, and respecting the OP's privacy, it is difficult to know the severity of the "bump."

Perhaps, if it was not a speed-bump, but more of a pot-hole, we've all hit them, a talk with the Supt may be in order.

Maybe ask the Supt what could be done or when a clean record could convince otherwise.

On the flip side, speaking to him could hurt your case.

See a solicitor first, then maybe the Supt by yourself. Depends what the solicitor says.

gunny123

I went to see the chief super when they all got together in a witches coven to ban/refuse licence renewals for cf pistols. Waste of time, not remotely interested, go the legal route, maybe get willie egan to visit the super and see whats up.

arrowloopboy

They've obviously deemed the magnitude of your ''bump'' sizeable enough to deem you a danger to yourself or others with a firearm ,in their opinion,a meeting won't change their minds ,your chance of reversing this doesn't look great imho .

gunny123

arrowloopboy wrote: »

They've obviously deemed the magnitude of your ''bump'' sizeable enough to deem you a danger to yourself or others with a firearm ,in their opinion,a meeting won't change their minds ,your chance of reversing this doesn't look great imho .

But on the other hand if it were that serious, would they wait over two years before removing the licence ?

arrowloopboy

gunny123 wrote: »

But on the other hand if it were that serious, would they wait over two years before removing the licence ?

Well it can't be for a parking fine ,but I see your logic ,but they did remember whatever it was nearly 3 yrs later.

gunny123

arrowloopboy wrote: »

Well it can't be for a parking fine ,but I see your logic ,but they did remember whatever it was nearly 3 yrs later.

Everything is computer now, for better or worse. But if it was serious he would have been charged and it went to court, where he would either be found guilty and his guns gone automatically, or found innocent where he would be absolved and the super would have no reason to take his licences.

Kings Inns or bust

Lads - sorry if this is off topic but I got intrigued by this thread. Does anyone know what the situation with spent convictions will be? Well know I suspect is the wrong word as nothing will have been tested yet, but I assume there's a bit of a paradox with someone no having to declare spent convictions and the guards having the file?

Cass

Do you mean about previous convictions? If so then there are three "categories".

1. All convictions must be declared on the FCA1 firearm application form. Regardless of age, type, etc. In section 2.4 it specifically asks have you ever been found guilty or have any charges pending. It also asks have you ever been the subject of a court order. It does not give a timescale as to when these charges/orders were issued. Declare them because they already know from the information you provided whether you have or not. I've seen lads been refused for not answering this truthfully and on the flip side i've seen plenty of lads getting the firearm because they were honest and satisfied the Super they were still fit to hold a firearm. Having a conviction/charge/order does not preclude you from getting a firearm.
2. If you have served a prison sentence of 3 months or more, and that sentence ended within the last 5 years then you are statute barred or disentitled from applying. This means you cannot even apply for the firearm. You must wait 5 years (and a day) from the date you were released or your sentence ended before you can apply.
3. This one is tricky. You were charged with an offense, and even brought to court, but the case was struck out or you were found not guilty. Most would think you do not need to declare this as you were found not guilty (or the case struck out), but the FCA1 asks have you charges pending or EVER been charged. So even though you were found not guilty you were charged so declare it.

With option 1 or 3 you write an explanation about the circumstances. DO NOT try and explain it in such a way that you want the case re-tried with the Super as s/he won't be interested. Just explain what lead to the charges, the outcome of the court case, and your behaviour since. Also do not be overly critical of Judge's decision/verdict. It can show a poor attitude and whether you're right or not the case is over. Show a better attitude and move on.

BattleCorp

Cass wrote: »

but the FCA1 asks have you charges pending or EVER been charged. So even though you were found not guilty you were charged so declare it.

Actually Cass, the FAC1 form doesn't ask if you have ever been charged (See below) so if you were found not guilty or didn't have any charges pending, then you are in the clear and don't have to mention that you were ever charged.

Have you ever been found guilty of, or do you have charges pending for, any offence in Ireland or abroad?
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Have you ever been the subject of an order issued by a court in a case involving the use, attempted use or threatened use of force against another person?
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Now, Kings Inns posed an interesting question regarding the Spent Convictions Bill. I don't think the spent convictions bill would apply in the OP's case but it might apply to someone with a single old conviction.

Luckysasha

In fairness to the OP these answers are all well and good but without knowing the nature of the offence it pure speculation why he was refused

Cass

BattleCorp wrote: »

Actually Cass, the FAC1 form doesn't ask if you have ever been charged (See below)

Little tired of being tripped up on the language. My own fault. I need to read things rather than try remember from memory.

so if you were found not guilty or didn't have any charges pending, then you are in the clear and don't have to mention that you were ever charged.

You are, of course, right. The language is all important, and it's not a loophole but rather structured that way for a reason.

Charges pending or been found guilty is very different to ever been charged. I should have said charges pending or found guilty so my apologies for any confusion.

Now, Kings Inns posed an interesting question regarding the Spent Convictions Bill. I don't think the spent convictions bill would apply in the OP's case but it might apply to someone with a single old conviction.

It won't afaik. Its now the Criminal justice (Spent convictions and Certain Disclosures) Act 2016.

As the Act was signed into law after the OPs incident it will not be applicable retrospectively. Also the OP was not sentenced so the time frame for disclosure does not apply. Plus the OP had just gone through the licensing process 2 or 3 months prior so could not have declared it as it had not occurred.

The FCR asks, under section 3.4, the exact same questions as the FCA1 under section 2.4. As i said above if the case was struck out or the OP found not guilty then there was no reason to declare. However not guilty and suitable to hold a firearm are two separate things. Just because you have been found not guilty or had the case struck out does not compel the Super to issue a license.

So while unusual, unorthodox, little unprofessional and frankly annoying the OP will find himself in the same boat. There was a failure on behalf of An Gardaí to revoke the licenses at the time of the incident. If the OP posed a threat they should have revoked the licenses there and then (or within a reasonable time frame of the incident).

However the failure to do so is not in itself an excuse or a means to avoid the issue(s) brought in the letter of revocation which one can only assume relate to the incident. The two most common reasons for revocation are:

1. Intemperate Character
2. Threat to public safety

So while the Gardaí failed in their duties not to deal with these issues at the date of the incident it does not negate the reasons for revoking them now. The OP must show that in the time from the incident to the time of his re-applications he has been, for want of a better term, a model citizen and not worthy of the terms used in the revocation.

IOW this failure to deal promptly at the time with the incident and the licenses is not a "silver bullet" to overturn the decision.