Why are men slow to make the first move?

Jedi_Archivist

I'm not sure if this is an Irish thing, but I've noticed that when it comes to dating and making a move that men in general seem to be very slow to act. It seems that they need to have had some 'dutch courage' before coming near me, and that's when they're not really selling themselves....
I often see guys that i know are interested, but they won't make any move to talk to me. They just stand there, looking at me when they think i cant see. Its very frustrating. And before anyone says 'just talk to him yourself, it's the 21st century' im very traditional, and would never do this.

So my question is this; what can i do, more indirectly, that will let them know its ok to approach me?

Serious answers only please.

Pawwed Rig

Obvious answer is just talk to him yourself, it's the 21st century.
Take some responsibility for your life. These guys aren't there to boost your ego.

sozbox

If you bizarrely refuse to make a move yourself then all I can say is maybe send some more obvious signals to convey your interest.

The man in reason an interested man won't approach you is because he's afraid of rejection, remove that fear by sending the right signals and I'm sure they'll approach.

leggo

They won't approach for the same reason you won't. Your excuse is 'traditionalism', they could use the excuse of 'modernism', and their excuse would be more plausible in fact given the times we live in. But in truth both are just excuses for fear of rejection. And maybe you give off bad vibes unknowingly that doesn't help you there.

GritBiscuit

They key to anyone approaching you, with romance on their mind or otherwise is to be approachable. Uncross your arms, have a soft open stance and smile, smile, smile!
If you see someone looking at you and you want them to come up and talk to you, catch their eye and smile at them. Give them the green light to approach....

Jedi_Archivist

OP here.

I had deliberately left the original post vague in order to gauge opinion, but i think more context is needed. 1. this has nothing to do with my ego, believe me I'm still surprised that any guys would be interested in me. 2. in general i won't approach first. Any time i have i was ALWAYS rejected. The last time quite badly. That's why I'm here asking advice. I'm not going to take those 'first move' risks again.

silverharp

Guys are allowed to be out and not necessarily looking out to chat up girls. Guys are visual creatures so they might think you are hot but for whatever reason have no interest that night in going over to you, they might just be out with their mates, they might have somebody else in their head so wont bother trying to chat another girl up. On the other hand if you initiated a conversation Im sure you would get their attention pretty quick.

Decent Skin

Jedi_Archivist wrote: »

OP here.

I had deliberately left the original post vague in order to gauge opinion, but i think more context is needed. 1. this has nothing to do with my ego, believe me I'm still surprised that any guys would be interested in me. 2. in general i won't approach first. Any time i have i was ALWAYS rejected. The last time quite badly. That's why I'm here asking advice. I'm not going to take those 'first move' risks again.

1 & 2 could both apply to guys, and no-one would have any relationships.

Time for women to do some of the work; it's part of that equality that they've worked so hard to achieve.

sozbox

Jedi_Archivist wrote: »

I'm not going to take those 'first move' risks again.

But you expect the guys to do so! Come on now.

njs030

What makes you think they are interested? The only way I've ever known someone is interested in me is if they've spoken to me.

You say it's not an ego thing yet you insist you know they are interested?

rjpf1980

Jedi_Archivist wrote: »

I'm not sure if this is an Irish thing, but I've noticed that when it comes to dating and making a move that men in general seem to be very slow to act. It seems that they need to have had some 'dutch courage' before coming near me, and that's when they're not really selling themselves....
I often see guys that i know are interested, but they won't make any move to talk to me. They just stand there, looking at me when they think i cant see. Its very frustrating. And before anyone says 'just talk to him yourself, it's the 21st century' im very traditional, and would never do this.

So my question is this; what can i do, more indirectly, that will let them know its ok to approach me?

Serious answers only please.

Perhaps you show no sign of interest?
Many men would rather not go near a woman because chances are she will reject them.

Decent Skin

notjustsweet wrote: »

What makes you think they are interested? The only way I've ever known someone is interested in me is if they've spoken to me.

You say it's not an ego thing yet you insist you know they are interested?

There could be something there that needs more delicate handling than the "woman up - it's equality" replies to date.

The only way an initial approach would be viewed as "rejected badly" is (a) if someone was cock-sure that there was interest and acted "inappropriately" as a result (appropriately for them, based on what they thought, but inappropriately for their target) or (b) were so sure that they were in there that they were over-invested in a stranger and got a massive land when "rejected" (aka "nope, sorry, not interested").

So maybe there's a question there to look at, OP - are you good at reading signs ? What makes you say you "know he's interested" ?

Your initial post was all about guys acting/ not acting, whereas the more recent one said you were "looking for advice"; do you need advice on how to "attract" or do you need advice on how to read other people better ? Some people are flirty/more tactile/etc than others, and it can be a little confusing at times with crossed wires, but as long as you haven't over-committed or done something OTT, you can get past it easily enough.

silverbolt

Jedi_Archivist wrote: »

I'm not sure if this is an Irish thing, but I've noticed that when it comes to dating and making a move that men in general seem to be very slow to act. It seems that they need to have had some 'dutch courage' before coming near me, and that's when they're not really selling themselves....
I often see guys that i know are interested, but they won't make any move to talk to me. They just stand there, looking at me when they think i cant see. Its very frustrating. And before anyone says 'just talk to him yourself, it's the 21st century' im very traditional, and would never do this.

So my question is this; what can i do, more indirectly, that will let them know its ok to approach me?

Serious answers only please.

Because men are just as afraid of rejection as women are. Not to mention that men approaching women in pubs/clubs is becoming increasingly seen as sleazy. More and more men hear about how women "just want to dance and not be harrassed."

We are not mind readers, we dont know if you want to us to approach or not.

Jedi_Archivist wrote: »

OP here.

I had deliberately left the original post vague in order to gauge opinion, but i think more context is needed. 1. this has nothing to do with my ego, believe me I'm still surprised that any guys would be interested in me. 2. in general i won't approach first. Any time i have i was ALWAYS rejected. The last time quite badly. That's why I'm here asking advice. I'm not going to take those 'first move' risks again.

Well there you go. Why should men only be the ones who risk rejection?

dellas1979

Jedi_Archivist wrote: »

OP here.
I'm not going to take those 'first move' risks again.

Ah now.

Lookit, everything is a risk (in life). Everything.

Sounds like youve really let this into your self-esteem.

The only way you can fail is if you stop trying. And that involves taking risk.

And I know its hard, I really do, but you cant take one person's reaction to something and apply it to all. "THEY are all the same".

Maybe give us a description of what you do. Do you just...sit there or stand there? Are you smiling at people? Have you open body language?

Also, you seem to have a little of the "I cant believe he doesnt fancy ME thing or approach ME" thing going on (which IS ego based, no matter how much you deny this).
Your ego, to disperse your illusion that its small, is bigger than you think.
Its your self esteem thats taking the kicking (who is actually doing the kicking? Its you.)

pookie82

I, too, would ask the question, how do you know they're interested? Many guys with wives/gfs at home will look at other women on a night out. Some will even talk to them. That doesn't mean they want to get with them or ask them out.

I have to be honest, my experience of being out (yes, here in Ireland) is that lads are in no way shy about coming forward, especially with a few drinks in them. Many are happy to invade your space and even make a nuisance of themselves after you've politely told them you're not available; I haven't seen too many skulking at me from a corner.

What kind of places are you going to? Are they quiet country pubs with local onlooking crowds, where maybe it's harder to make a move?

Decent Skin

pookie82 wrote: »

I, too, would ask the question, how do you know they're interested? Many guys with wives/gfs at home will look at other women on a night out. Some will even talk to them. That doesn't mean they want to get with them or ask them out.

I have to be honest, my experience of being out (yes, here in Ireland) is that lads are in no way shy about coming forward, especially with a few drinks in them. Many are happy to invade your space and even make a nuisance of themselves after you've politely told them you're not available; I haven't seen too many skulking at me from a corner.

What kind of places are you going to? Are they quiet country pubs with local onlooking crowds, where maybe it's harder to make a move?

Drunk people should be avoided anyway. Plenty of women get paralytic and very annoying too.

No-one wants to get chatted up / chat up only to be puked on later.

I helped a vaguely fanciable friend one night as she puked from being pissed and she was convinced I'd be on for a snog about 5 mins later! Ewwwww!

beks101

In my experience of living both in Ireland and overseas, I'd say that Irish lads do tend to be a lot more passive in approaching outside of the pubs and clubs. Probably because historically we've had no tangible dating culture to speak of, despite the advent of dating apps and tinder which are very much American concepts only recently being adapted here.

Relationships by and large tend to happen either through drunken hookups or that old friend-of-a-friend-at-a-house-party chestnut and generally doesn't involve the cold-approach in the sober light of day that you're looking for OP.

TBH, I think it's a case of "just get over yourself" if you want your love life to change. It always astounds me how so many otherwise confident, accomplished, successful women are happy to rest on their laurels and leave their love lives to chance, entirely in the hands of guys who may or may not approach and will bemoan their singledom without making any effort whatsoever to take matters into their own hands.

Given what you're experiencing, your options are either: go out to more pubs and clubs, or drop the "traditionalist" bullsh1t and ramp up the body language when some guy takes your fancy and just go and say hi. Generally I find one thing is true of guys no matter where you are - if they're into you, give them an inch and they'll take a mile. They won't back off if you open a conversation and they won't be slow about moving things in a certain direction if you've signalled interest that blatantly.

I would agree though that a guy staring at you doesn't necessarily mean he wants anything more than to check you out. Men are visual and this happens all day every day if you're even remotely attractive as a woman, married men do it, older men do it, work colleagues, any straight man with a pulse, basically. Using that as a sure fire signal of interest may be the reason why you've had bad experiences on approaching men first.

Decent Skin

beks101 wrote: »

In my experience of living both in Ireland and overseas, I'd say that Irish lads do tend to be a lot more passive in approaching outside of the pubs and clubs. Probably because historically we've had no tangible dating culture to speak of, despite the advent of dating apps and tinder which are very much American concepts only recently being adapted here.

Relationships by and large tend to happen either through drunken hookups or that old friend-of-a-friend-at-a-house-party chestnut and generally doesn't involve the cold-approach in the sober light of day that you're looking for OP.

TBH, I think it's a case of "just get over yourself" if you want your love life to change. It always astounds me how so many otherwise confident, accomplished, successful women are happy to rest on their laurels and leave their love lives to chance, entirely in the hands of guys who may or may not approach and will bemoan their singledom without making any effort whatsoever to take matters into their own hands.

Given what you're experiencing, your options are either: go out to more pubs and clubs, or drop the "traditionalist" bullsh1t and ramp up the body language when some guy takes your fancy and just go and say hi. Generally I find one thing is true of guys no matter where you are - if they're into you, give them an inch and they'll take a mile. They won't back off if you open a conversation and they won't be slow about moving things in a certain direction if you've signalled interest that blatantly.

I would agree though that a guy staring at you doesn't necessarily mean he wants anything more than to check you out. Men are visual and this happens all day every day if you're even remotely attractive as a woman, married men do it, older men do it, work colleagues, any straight man with a pulse, basically. Using that as a sure fire signal of interest may be the reason why you've had bad experiences on approaching men first.

That's more than a little offensive, to be honest. I'd have left one off, but the two together are too much.

Maybe a filter is required to choose better as to who you "give an inch" to ?

Edit: correction to myself and slap on wrist; the second was "checking out" only, and both sexes do it.

Sorry!

Bandana boy

Jedi_Archivist wrote: »

..
I often see guys that i know are interested.

Jedi_Archivist wrote: »

Any time i have i was ALWAYS rejected. The last time quite badly.

Maybe everybody who is actually interested is already approaching you .

Penny Tration

Decent Skin wrote: »

That's more than a little offensive, to be honest. I'd have left one off, but the two together are too much.

Maybe a filter is required to choose better as to who you "give an inch" to ?

Edit: correction to myself and slap on wrist; the second was "checking out" only, and both sexes do it.

Sorry!

With the first one, I think what she's saying is that, if a man is interested and the woman makes a move, generally the man will be very happy to respond in kind. It's not insulting, it's just men are approached by women so rarely that if one they actually like approaches them, they'll jump at it!


And that's definitely true in my experience. The couple of men I approached were extremely happy to have the woman do the approaching!

Decent Skin

Penny Tration wrote: »

With the first one, I think what she's saying is that, if a man is interested and the woman makes a move, generally the man will be very happy to respond in kind. It's not insulting, it's just men are approached by women so rarely that if one they actually like approaches them, they'll jump at it!

"Give them an inch and they'll take a mile" is usually used to reflect trying to take more than what's on offer.

That said, my objection was the inclusion of the two, and I misread the second.

And that's definitely true in my experience. The couple of men I approached were extremely happy to have the woman do the approaching!

Good on ya! Pity there aren't more like ya!

Big Bag of Chips

Jedi_Archivist wrote: »

I often see guys that i know are interested, but they won't make any move to talk to me. They just stand there, looking at me when they think i cant see.

Why would they think you can't see them looking at you? Both sides are afraid of rejection. So the one that makes the move either has to have a thick skin and not care about a knock back, or they need to be more than 100% confident that the other person is interested too.

You saying that these fellas are looking at you when they think you can't see must mean you are not making it particularly clear that you are looking at them too. If you know a fella is looking at you, look at him! Catch his eye occasionally. Smile. If you pass him going to the toilet, bar wherever, smile, say hi.

Fellas and girls aren't a foreign species. Read threads here. There are regularly poor fellas on about why woman can be so unapproachable!

Both sides feel equally unsure and daunted by the other side!

beks101

Decent Skin wrote: »

"Give them an inch and they'll take a mile" is usually used to reflect trying to take more than what's on offer.

Did not mean this negatively at all and perhaps it was the wrong choice of phrase - what I meant was, if a guy is interested and you do the approaching, he'll generally be more than happy to meet you halfway and will often even pick up the lead from you.

I remember with an ex of mine, he happened to be standing beside me at a bar one night, I turned to make some innocuous comment about the long wait to be served and he pretty much picked it up from there, bought me a drink, introduced me to his friends, spent the night chatting to me and asked for my number.

In a general sense if he's interested and you've read him right, the "approaching" will not be half as intimidating as the OP seems to think it is.

Clampdown

As you said in your op and as beks said about the need to have alcohol on board before chatting a woman up, it's not just that men need the Dutch courage, if you tried to approach an Irish woman and ask her out somewhere that is an non drinking setting she'll look at you like you're a total creep. It's just not done here like it would be in America or some other countries.

In fact, that word 'creep' is basically thrown onto any guy who shows interest in a woman nowadays, if she doesn't find him attractive. But if he's good looking then it's okay suddenly. So a guy has to have a lot of confidence in himself to risk making that first move, and for many of us that means we need Dutch courage because we might not be confident in our looks.

I hear it all the time from female friends how it's never the nice guys that they want to approach them, it's always the arrogant or drunk ones, but it's because nice guys don't want to get treated like a suspect in a criminal investigation from the word go because they had the audacity to show interest. And some women are like that because they're tired of being approached by sleazy guys so it's a cycle of annoyance and frustration for all. I guess all you can do is try to seem approachable and friendly.

Decent Skin

beks101 wrote: »

Did not mean this negatively at all and perhaps it was the wrong choice of phrase - what I meant was, if a guy is interested and you do the approaching, he'll generally be more than happy to meet you halfway and will often even pick up the lead from you.

I remember with an ex of mine, he happened to be standing beside me at a bar one night, I turned to make some innocuous comment about the long wait to be served and he pretty much picked it up from there, bought me a drink, introduced me to his friends, spent the night chatting to me and asked for my number.

In a general sense if he's interested and you've read him right, the "approaching" will not be half as intimidating as the OP seems to think it is.

Ah! Meeting halfway is perfect! Completely different.

Jedi_Archivist

OP here, again.

Thanks for all the replies harsh or not!
I commenting on the points raised;
- I definitely do have self esteem issues. But I'm working hard to overcome them, which is why I'm here asking for help/guidance.
- As so many of seem sure that 'just looking' is not a sign of interest, then what is? I have very little experience, which is probably why its never work out so well for me up to now.

And for context, i'm talking about guys you see on a daily basis, outside of pubs etc, but not in work. That can get messy!

Jedi_Archivist

OP here, again.

Thanks for all the replies harsh or not!
In commenting on the points raised;
- I definitely do have self esteem issues. But I'm working hard to overcome them, which is why I'm here asking for help/guidance.
- As so many of seem sure that 'just looking' is not a sign of interest, then what is? I have very little experience, which is probably why its never work out so well for me up to now.

And for context, i'm talking about guys you see on a daily basis, outside of pubs etc, but not in work. That can get messy!

njs030

Clampdown wrote: »

In fact, that word 'creep' is basically thrown onto any guy who shows interest in a woman nowadays, if she doesn't find him attractive. But if he's good looking then it's okay suddenly.

As we all find different people attractive (of course there's exceptions but even Brad Pitt doesn't do it for every woman) every man has the fear of rejection and needs a little bit of encouragement-a smile, a hello etc goes a long way.

Really op if these men are looking at you covertly they probably don't want you to see so it's unlikely they are interested.

Perhaps as someone suggested you might you need to learn to read signals.
Btw being old fashioned is fine but it can come across as standoffish too- try and find a way to be warm as well if you can.

dellas1979

Jedi_Archivist wrote: »

As so many of seem sure that 'just looking' is not a sign of interest, then what is?

People have eyes OP. People look at other people every day. Some are just looking cause they have eyes. You are seriously reading into "people looking at you" thing.

Responsibility to start something (a gentle merry flirt) lies with both parties. Not just on the man.

There is a reaction to give OP. Its like a signal females give to a male. You've either frightened the bejaysys out of yourself to something that is natural, or you are over thinking. It can be very subtle (can I just say you do not have to throw yourself at anyone). A smile. Gentle eye contact. Laughing.

And there is not one person here that has never suffered rejection in one way or another. Its how you deal with it. Thats where self esteem comes in. You might have to build it back up. That is your work to do (for yourself) and how to do it (self help, councellor etc).

You sound a bit "lazy through fear" or something.

Bandana boy

Jedi_Archivist wrote: »

OP here, again.

Thanks for all the replies harsh or not!
In commenting on the points raised;
- I definitely do have self esteem issues. But I'm working hard to overcome them, which is why I'm here asking for help/guidance.
- As so many of seem sure that 'just looking' is not a sign of interest, then what is? I have very little experience, which is probably why its never work out so well for me up to now.

And for context, i'm talking about guys you see on a daily basis, outside of pubs etc, but not in work. That can get messy!

Smile directly at a guy and he will come and chat you up if he is at all interested and available .
If its outside a pub and you can start a conversation, ask for a light if you smoke , or the correct time , who is playing in a match etc .

Don't think a women has to do much more than that to give a guy the single.
a look from a guy means nothing , all taken guys still look , in some cases even more so then when single.

Potatoeman

Learning to read body language is a good start. People can mix up friendly and interested very easily.

If you are going to approach someone try and keep the conversation going. Going over and saying 'hi' needs to be followed up. Deadair will kill any rapport.

If you don't want to approach the guy directly, make eye contact smile then stand near him. It means it's less of a risk for him to cross the room to chat you up. It shows clear sign of interest without making the first move. I've been approached by far more women like this than directly.

As someone above mentioned the bar and smoking section can be good for a casual chat. If they are in a group it takes a bit more courage as there is an audience if you are rejected.

Decent Skin

Jedi_Archivist wrote: »

OP here, again.

Thanks for all the replies harsh or not!
I commenting on the points raised;
- I definitely do have self esteem issues. But I'm working hard to overcome them, which is why I'm here asking for help/guidance.
- As so many of seem sure that 'just looking' is not a sign of interest, then what is? I have very little experience, which is probably why its never work out so well for me up to now.

And for context, i'm talking about guys you see on a daily basis, outside of pubs etc, but not in work. That can get messy!

Re the "just looking" - at what stage in the "just looking" do you decide you like what you see ?

Flip the scenario for a moment and think of how you'd operate; usually works well as a baseline.

Would you "just looking" mean that you were interested, or may you not have decided yet ? Could a guy "just look" and say "tasty; but I bet she's taken / high maintenance / just out with her friends and I'd better not / out of my league", etc ?

Daisy78

Stepping aside from dating, how would you describe your personality? Would you say you are more introverted generally than your friends? Are you the type to initiate a conversation with others? Are you good with banter? What I've learned from dating at this stage of my life is that the image you project is hugely important. I consider myself to be quite a friendly person but I know that i project quite a different image (serious, a bit cranky, fed up). Flirting is a skill, but it's something you have to practice every day, with men and women. Chat with the door man, compliment a random girl on her outfit, imitate a conversation with a friend of a friend even if it does seem like effort. So when it comes to chatting to that random guy that you have your eye on it isn't that big of a deal. Ive found that I seem to attract guys when I am in a relationship because I'm more relaxed and not vested in the outcome.,im just chatting to the guy for the sake of it. Im sure plenty of others here would say the same thing. My friends who are "good with men" are the ones who take this approach, they know they have something to offer and they make sure they advertise it! Not in a desperate way, but they pitch their interest just at the right level to show their openess to being approached.

Re the looking thing I would say you are not wrong per say but you have to build on it as an initial sign. If the guy is in your orbit then you find an excuse to start a conversation, it could be anything. You don't have to ask the guy out or for his number, I'm in agreement that if he is interested then he should direct the conversation that way. If he doesn't then move on, it's no reflection on your appeal, just that the guy wasn't feeling it. I wish I had taken my own advice cause looking back there missed opportunities that won't come again.

rjpf1980

notjustsweet wrote: »

As we all find different people attractive (of course there's exceptions but even Brad Pitt doesn't do it for every woman) every man has the fear of rejection and needs a little bit of encouragement-a smile, a hello etc goes a long way.

Really op if these men are looking at you covertly they probably don't want you to see so it's unlikely they are interested.

Perhaps as someone suggested you might you need to learn to read signals.
Btw being old fashioned is fine but it can come across as standoffish too- try and find a way to be warm as well if you can.

I'll tell the OP the real.reason why men don't go near her.

In a pub or club with music blaring and the girl you are interested is with her mates who will pull her away or push you away or deliberately stand in front of you turning their backs what chance do you have? Unless the guy gets her number quick she will be gone as her friends will drag her away.

If she is with male friends they may get physically aggressive and threatening. Many male friends of women are trying to work up the courage to ask them out and are threatened by guys who can chat them up and take them home.

You could be the nicest guy and you will will be told to f*ck off by a girl who you thought was approachable. Somehow you have to win them over before you can talk to the girl. Not an easy task if a guy is shy and nice and not pushy?

If you are with your mates then they can chat up her girlfriends and give you a chance to chat her up however if she has insecure white knight male friends this could cause trouble.
Many girls will ask you to buy a drink and then leg it once you get it for her.

If a guy is tongue tied he won't know what to say and conversation will die very quick.

So there are lots of reasons why men don't make any approach.

If a man is going to have any success he has to approach lots of women and get blown out again and again and again. He will have to laugh off his own mates merciless slagging when he fails often embarrassingly so in front of them.

A man who approaches women and has success has to have a hide like a rhino.

So OP don't be surprised when men don't approach. Quite a lot of men are very depressed about it and go home and cry themselves to sleep while keeping a front of the craic.

Jedi_Archivist

Op, again.

Huge thanks for all feedback/comments.
I have taken onboard all the points various boardsies mentioned. I admit that i didn't really take into consideration the fact that approaching women is just as hard for men as the reverse. So thanks for that wake up call .

Hope this is of benefit to other people as well.