Boilers: Grant Vortex vs Warmflow

Paremon

Looking to get an external condensing oil burner fitted to replace our existing internal old non-condensing boiler. To heat the house 26KW/88,000 btu minimum should do. I'm aware the gold standard on the Irish market seems to be the Grant Vortex. However I've also been advised that the Warmflow equivalent is the exact same (same internals) but much cheaper. Looking at quotes for each there's a difference of about €450 (not an insignificant sum).

The specific boilers I'm trying to compare are:
Grant Vortex 90/120 (26-36KW)
Warmflow Kabin Pak K120HE (26-33KW)

What are people's opinions of Grant Vs Warmflow in general as regards build, reliability, lifespan, servicing etc? And of those particular models above? Any help or advice from experience (installers and/or users) appreciated.

jimf

Paremon wrote: »

Looking to get an external condensing oil burner fitted to replace our existing internal old non-condensing boiler. To heat the house 26KW/88,000 btu minimum should do. I'm aware the gold standard on the Irish market seems to be the Grant Vortex. However I've also been advised that the Warmflow equivalent is the exact same (same internals) but much cheaper. Looking at quotes for each there's a difference of about €450 (not an insignificant sum).

The specific boilers I'm trying to compare are:
Grant Vortex 90/120 (26-36KW)
Warmflow Kabin Pak K120HE (26-33KW)

What are people's opinions of Grant Vs Warmflow in general as regards build, reliability, lifespan, servicing etc? And of those particular models above? Any help or advice from experience (installers and/or users) appreciated.

im afraid there is quite a difference in both boilers imho about the only thing they have in common is they both use riello burners and they condense
imho it has to be grant

agusta

Paremon wrote: »

Looking to get an external condensing oil burner fitted to replace our existing internal old non-condensing boiler. To heat the house 26KW/88,000 btu minimum should do. I'm aware the gold standard on the Irish market seems to be the Grant Vortex. However I've also been advised that the Warmflow equivalent is the exact same (same internals) but much cheaper. Looking at quotes for each there's a difference of about €450 (not an insignificant sum).

The specific boilers I'm trying to compare are:
Grant Vortex 90/120 (26-36KW)
Warmflow Kabin Pak K120HE (26-33KW)

What are people's opinions of Grant Vs Warmflow in general as regards build, reliability, lifespan, servicing etc? And of those particular models above? Any help or advice from experience (installers and/or users) appreciated.

Both boilers dont have the same internals.There not even close.It has to be grant.The grant euroflame is 100 euro approx cheaper than the vortex.Both the euroflame and vortex are the market leaders

Dtp1979

Totally agree with above. Plus, if it's been calculated that you need 26kw then make sure that is correct. It's borderline between a 50/90 and 90/120. Slightly under sizing a condensing is better than oversizing.
How big is the house and how many rads do you have.

Paremon

Dtp1979 wrote: »

Totally agree with above. Plus, if it's been calculated that you need 26kw then make sure that is correct. It's borderline between a 50/90 and 90/120. Slightly under sizing a condensing is better than oversizing.
How big is the house and how many rads do you have.

Thanks. So is the concensus that Grant is better than Warmflow based on anything in particular, eg spec, build quality, reliability, average lifespan, etc? I've also been recommended Firebird which i believe are an Irish company. How would they compare to Warmflow generally?

Re kw; I've had the rooms measured by an installer for a quote & they came back with 26-34kw & the above boiler examples. Same for N another installer/quoter. I then calculated myself for my own purposes each rooms' area (lxhxw), without taking into account wall depth, ceilings etc added it up & after conversion it came to 23kw which i took as the minimum to heat the house. As that's just a minimum & didn't include wall depth, ceilings etc & as there's very little wall insulation i added a bit to that & can only approximate it to around the 26kw mark. Is that a logical approach? What are the disadvantages of oversizing the boiler vs undersizing?

Re rads; 12 in total, non convecting, some double, some single. Intending to replace these with convecting rads with TRVs.

Will be insulating some parts of the house (attic, 1 cavity wall & some small internal areas).

DGOBS

for my money, it'd spend the extra on the vortex blue (blu female riello burner) lower NOX emissions and cleaner boiler

Dtp1979

Paremon wrote: »

Thanks. So is the concensus that Grant is better than Warmflow based on anything in particular, eg spec, build quality, reliability, average lifespan, etc? I've also been recommended Firebird which i believe are an Irish company. How would they compare to Warmflow generally?

Re kw; I've had the rooms measured by an installer for a quote & they came back with 26-34kw & the above boiler examples. Same for N another installer/quoter. I then calculated myself for my own purposes each rooms' area (lxhxw), without taking into account wall depth, ceilings etc added it up & after conversion it came to 23kw which i took as the minimum to heat the house. As that's just a minimum & didn't include wall depth, ceilings etc & as there's very little wall insulation i added a bit to that & can only approximate it to around the 26kw mark. Is that a logical approach? What are the disadvantages of oversizing the boiler vs undersizing?

Re rads; 12 in total, non convecting, some double, some single. Intending to replace these with convecting rads with TRVs.

Will be insulating some parts of the house (attic, 1 cavity wall & some small internal areas).

Oversizing a condensing boiler makes it less efficient yet some guys still oversize.
If you've 12 rads id nearly bet money that a 50/90 would be more than enough.
Btw, grant boilers are Irish too.

Dtp1979

DGOBS wrote: »

for my money, it'd spend the extra on the vortex blue (blu female riello burner) lower NOX emissions and cleaner boiler

I didn't realise they had released that yet. How long is it out? Any reports back on it?

DGOBS

Yeah it's out, same boiler, blue flame riello burner, very cool

Wearb

Blueflame is very interesting, but no efficiency increase. I don't see any advantage for the customer. How do we sell it to them.

jimf

Wearb wrote: »

Blueflame is very interesting, but no efficiency increase. I don't see any advantage for the customer. How do we sell it to them.

their not going to be that much more expensive grant models anyway

Wearb

jimf wrote: »

their not going to be that much more expensive grant models anyway

Do you know how much difference Jim? I suppose we will have to change FGA's to ones with nox/sox readings also.

Dtp1979

Wearb wrote: »

Do you know how much difference Jim? I suppose we will have to change FGA's to ones with nox/sox readings also.

Think the v3 has nox
I rang grant today about training and they said the boilers weren't officially launched yet so no training available.

jimf

Wearb wrote: »

Do you know how much difference Jim? I suppose we will have to change FGA's to ones with nox/sox readings also.

I think about 3/4 hundred euro jury is still out on nox and sox needing to b recorded on fga print out its early days yet maybe tony has more up to date info

jimf

Wearb wrote: »

Do you know how much difference Jim? I suppose we will have to change FGA's to ones with nox/sox readings also.

I think about 3/4 hundred euro jury is still out on nox and sox needing to b recorded on fga print out its early days yet maybe tony has more up to date info

jimf

Wearb wrote: »

Do you know how much difference Jim? I suppose we will have to change FGA's to ones with nox/sox readings also.

I think about 3/4 hundred euro jury is still out on nox and sox needing to b recorded on fga print out its early days yet maybe tony has more up to date info

Wearb

jimf wrote: »

I think about 3/4 hundred euro jury is still out on nox and sox needing to b recorded on fga print out its early days yet maybe tony has more up to date info

Heard you the first time

jimf

Wearb wrote: »

Heard you the first time

gremlins out last night or else scudo has my log in :p

DGOBS

You won't have to record Nox as of yet (it's an extra cell in your Anton V upgrade, but expensive cell €300 approx)

The sell for me is, a clean boiler, so this should improve long term efficiency IMHO.

(he doesn't need you login, he's still here )

Wearb

Hi Scudo 4 or Transit 1 or Berlingo 1. :pac::pac::pac::pac: Maybe even Hiace 1:D

Dtp1979

Wearb wrote: »

Hi Scudo 4 or Transit 1 or Berlingo 1. :pac::pac::pac::pac: Maybe even Hiace 1:D

Go again

Dtp1979

DGOBS wrote: »

You won't have to record Nox as of yet (it's an extra cell in your Anton V upgrade, but expensive cell €300 approx)

The sell for me is, a clean boiler, so this should improve long term efficiency IMHO.

(he doesn't need you login, he's still here )

Tbf a when they're set up properly they're usually spotless the following year

Dtp1979

Wearb wrote: »

Hi Scudo 4 or Transit 1 or Berlingo 1. :pac::pac::pac::pac: Maybe even Hiace 1:D

Go again

Wearb

Dtp1979 wrote: »

Go again

Merc, Lexus, Audi, Wheelbarrow

Dtp1979

Wearb wrote: »

Merc, Lexus, Audi, Wheelbarrow

Not even close

jimf

Wearb wrote: »

Merc, Lexus, Audi, Wheelbarrow

clapped out panda

jimf

anyway on a more serious note no boiler sold in Ireland yet and yes they are available at approx. 400eu extra on top of standard vortex prices

maybe tony has a valid point re cleaner boiler but so does dtp when he says boiler set up properly in the first place are usually clean as well when we get to them

but we also have to take into account how many are not commissioned in the first place

Dtp1979

jimf wrote: »

but we also have to take into account how many are not commissioned in the first place

I wonder what blue flame will be like when not commisioned or set up arseways?

DGOBS

I would compare the build up in the boiler to that of a gas boiler, much less than an oil boiler.
But take the commissioning point too.

I wouldn't say they will be much more expensive for long (as not a whole lot more to the the burner to be honest)
Would say they will become the norm rapidly.

Dtp1979

DGOBS wrote: »

I would compare the build up in the boiler to that of a gas boiler, much less than an oil boiler.
But take the commissioning point too.

I wouldn't say they will be much more expensive for long (as not a whole lot more to the the burner to be honest)
Would say they will become the norm rapidly.

Modulating oil burners next

Tom44

Dtp1979 wrote: »

Go again

Tom 44 ?

Dtp1979

Tom44 wrote: »

Tom 44 ?

Huh?

Wearb

Dtp1979 wrote: »

Huh?

Great to have him back. I REALLY miss the total confusion he can cause. LMHO :D:D

Paremon

Dtp1979 wrote: »

Oversizing a condensing boiler makes it less efficient yet some guys still oversize.
If you've 12 rads id nearly bet money that a 50/90 would be more than enough.
Btw, grant boilers are Irish too.

Thanks. It's hard for me to know for sure what's needed output-wise (50/90 or 90/120).
3 installer quotes recommended 90/120
1 installer quote recommended 120/150. That same installer says he prefers to oversize, but from what you're saying oversizing is not the way to go on condensing boilers & that's also what I heard from another plumber (ie it never gets hot enough to condense enough & therefore reduces boiler efficiency = increased fuel bills).
At the very least I now know I don't need a 120/150 as it's oversizing.
I hadn't considered a 50/90...wondering now given that it's borderline....but 2 more rads will be added (totalling 14) & it's a cold house in general so I'll probably go 90/120.

Paremon

jimf wrote: »

anyway on a more serious note no boiler sold in Ireland yet and yes they are available at approx. 400eu extra on top of standard vortex prices

maybe tony has a valid point re cleaner boiler but so does dtp when he says boiler set up properly in the first place are usually clean as well when we get to them

but we also have to take into account how many are not commissioned in the first place

Would around €1500 sound about right for an external Grant Vortex 90/120 boiler?
Quoted €1470 inc Vat from a supplier, €1550 inc Vat from another supplier & €1700+ from an installer (I'm not VAT registered, just joe-soap public).

Wearb

Take the advice given often given here and get the registered installer to supply the boiler. you can of course stipulate the type of boiler, but if you buy it and have it installed, then if anything goes wrong, you will be left arguing with both installer and supplier.

Paremon

Wearb wrote: »

Take the advice given often given here and get the registered installer to supply the boiler. you can of course stipulate the type of boiler, but if you buy it and have it installed, then if anything goes wrong, you will be left arguing with both installer and supplier.

Good advice & I most likley will but it seems a lot of installers are quoting for parts which I can buy cheaper directly myself from a local supplier that sells to installers & public alike. It's difficult to square that off when the difference is 2 to €300 for no apparent reason (labour quoted separately). Suppose I could just ask the installer to match the local supplier's price but then it seems to be case of 'well I only use X supplier & this is their best price'. I'm not interested in squeezing anyone but at the same time I don't like being overcharged (who does?).

jimf

in most cases the installer will get a discount from the supplier which you wont

equaliser123

I would strongly advise anyone who is thinking of Warmflow to stay away. I had one, which they admitted had a manufacturing fault. It released gases/ smoke so strong I had to get medical attention. My plumber took it out and photographed the casing, took it to <snip> and they washed their hands of it and referred me to the Warmflow rep.
To cut a long story short, they very nicely declined to compensate me for any of the expense/ hassle, out of warranty etc My excellent plumber fitted a second hand Grant boiler 3 years ago. It has been safe and excellent. I am still out almost £500 but as time has passed on I have lost the will to fight for compensation for the cost of all the work.
The best of it is, I had spent about £17,000 with <snip> when building my house but that didn't count when I had a problem...poor form!

MOD NOTE: edited to remove names. equaliser123 please have a read of the rules and charters on this site so that you don't venture outside them.

Wearb

equaliser123 wrote: »

I would strongly advise anyone who is thinking of Warmflow to stay away. I had one, which they admitted had a manufacturing fault. It released gases/ smoke so strong I had to get medical attention. My plumber took it out and photographed the casing, took it to <snip> and they washed their hands of it and referred me to the Warmflow rep.
To cut a long story short, they very nicely declined to compensate me for any of the expense/ hassle, out of warranty etc My excellent plumber fitted a second hand Grant boiler 3 years ago. It has been safe and excellent. I am still out almost £500 but as time has passed on I have lost the will to fight for compensation for the cost of all the work.
The best of it is, I had spent about £17,000 with <snip> when building my house but that didn't count when I had a problem...poor form!

MOD NOTE: edited to remove names. equaliser123 please have a read of the rules and charters on this site so that you don't venture outside them.

Without my mod hat on.... Anything can have a manufacturing fault but I have to say that I have a good few Warmflow's on my rounds that are working fine. Might not be my first choice, but its not difficult to get acceptable results from them either. Sorry that you had such a bad experience with them, but that was more to do with the way it was handled than that particular make.

jimf

don't really like working on the new design of wf boilers

but the old ones wer as good as anything out there maybe a bit loosely baffled with high fg temps

there was a few leakers in my neck of the woods a few years back a faulty welder I think was the cause but in fairness to wf they replaced them under warranty no questions asked

DGOBS

Are you allowed take your MOD hat off...???

Wearb

Oooops

Tom44

What's a hosted moderator ?


Can he promote holidays or can I tell him (safely) to feck off?


All answers treated with utmost confidentially, unless u like holidays that is.

Wearb

Tom44 wrote: »

What's a hosted moderator ?


Can he promote holidays or can I tell him (safely) to feck off?


All answers treated with utmost confidentially, unless u like holidays that is.

They make sure that regular mods don’t go around without head wear on them

DGOBS

Hosted Mod, means I am still tied to a 'hosted' board (the old RGI Tech board) they only partially de-modded me, think they forgot to do that board.

Dtp1979

DGOBS wrote: »

Hosted Mod, means I am still tied to a 'hosted' board (the old RGI Tech board) they only partially de-modded me, think they forgot to do that board.

It’s a pity it’s gone. I used to love asking stupid questions

DGOBS

It's still there, just un-used.....Tom abuse away, I have no power in this place anymore
It's the new kid in town you have to behave for!!

Wearb

DGOBS wrote: »

It's still there, just un-used.....Tom abuse away, I have no power in this place anymore
It's the new kid in town you have to behave for!!

That’s what you get for removing your hat Dgobs.

DGOBS

Heavy lays the crown.

vggreene

hi folks.. in the same boat as the guy starting this thread. upgrading from a 22 years old boiler in a shed to an outdoor pack.
was looking at Grant and Warmflow, its a sealed system in a 4bed semi.. what about the the wamflow E26S 21 to 27kw with the built in 12litre expansion tank? kinda stuck for space for that in the hot press. tks