Waterford Mayor on Drug Dealers.

TheQuietFella

http://www.wlrfm.com/news/local/74674-waterford-mayor-says-cuts-to-garda-drugs-unit-means-criminals-no-longer-fear-capture.html

Don't we all know that one of the largest drugs dealer in Waterford is a relation

of a high ranking member of the GS!!! Lets see some action there or probably

inaction.

Wanderer78

jebus, when will we ever just legalise the lot and be done with this crap!

Cabaal

Wanderer78 wrote: »

jebus, when will we ever just legalise the lot and be done with this crap!

So you want all drugs that are illegal to be made legal? seriously?
I'm not sure that you've given this much thought,

BBM77

Wanderer78 wrote: »

jebus, when will we ever just legalise the lot and be done with this crap!

Sure why not. While we are at it we can make murder legal to. Sure the authorities have never been able to stamp it out either.

Wanderer78

Cabaal wrote:

So you want all drugs that are illegal to be made legal? seriously? I'm not sure that you've given this much thought,

BBM77 wrote:

Sure why not. While we are at it we can make murder legal to. Sure the authorities have never been able to stamp it out either.

I've been giving this a lifetime of thought folks, I'd be very interested in hearing your views on how the laws(globally) on drugs have actually worked?

Yes I believe all illegal drugs should be legalised and taken under control of governments. Tax their use just like other dangerous substances, I.e. tobacco, alcohol etc. Invest this revenue into our health services, particularly into our mental health services, to try prevent addiction problems in the first place or at least help people with their issues.

The global war on drugs has largely failed. We have spent billions and trillions on this, and as far as I can see, there are more drugs available and cheaper now than before. We 're wasting valuable resources and money chasing this one. You will never stop humans from taking these type of drugs, so why let highly dangerous criminal gangs control this industry?

There's a growing consensus for this type of approach, and I clearly agree.

BBM77

Wanderer78 wrote: »

I've been giving this a lifetime of thought folks, I'd be very interested in hearing your views on how the laws(globally) on drugs have actually worked?

Yes I believe all illegal drugs should be legalised and taken under control of governments. Tax their use just like other dangerous substances, I.e. tobacco, alcohol etc. Invest this revenue into our health services, particularly into our mental health services, to try prevent addiction problems in the first place or at least help people with their issues.

The global war on drugs has largely failed. We have spent billions and trillions on this, and as far as I can see, there are more drugs available and cheaper now than before. We 're wasting valuable resources and money chasing this one. You will never stop humans from taking these type of drugs, so why let highly dangerous criminal gangs control this industry?

There's a growing consensus for this type of approach, and I clearly agree.

Did you ever think that the fact that these drugs are illegal deters most people from using them? Also you don’t need to legalise them in order to try prevent addiction problems in the first place.

I mean the same argument could be applied to Pedophilia and murder. These things are never going to be completely stopped either, why spend Billions on a legal system that tries to prevent, capture and punish the people who do these things. The reason it is done is because it is the right thing to do. But for some reason with drugs some people think that legalisation is somehow going to improve the situation. Sure we have a legal drug now in Alcohol and it costs the country Billions every year to deal with the consequences of its use. Not to mention the personal distress its use causes a large number of people. So by your logic having more illegal hard drugs it is somehow going to improve the situation. I think the people with this “growing consensus” need to wake up.

O Riain

BBM77 wrote: »

Wanderer78 wrote: »

I've been giving this a lifetime of thought folks, I'd be very interested in hearing your views on how the laws(globally) on drugs have actually worked?

Yes I believe all illegal drugs should be legalised and taken under control of governments. Tax their use just like other dangerous substances, I.e. tobacco, alcohol etc. Invest this revenue into our health services, particularly into our mental health services, to try prevent addiction problems in the first place or at least help people with their issues.

The global war on drugs has largely failed. We have spent billions and trillions on this, and as far as I can see, there are more drugs available and cheaper now than before. We 're wasting valuable resources and money chasing this one. You will never stop humans from taking these type of drugs, so why let highly dangerous criminal gangs control this industry?

There's a growing consensus for this type of approach, and I clearly agree.

Did you ever think that the fact that these drugs are illegal deters most people from using them? Also you don t need to illegalise them in order to try prevent addiction problems in the first place.

I mean the same argument could be applied to Pedophilia and murder. These things are never going to be completely stopped either, why spend Billions on a legal system that tries to prevent, capture and punish the people who do these things. The reason it is done is because it is the right thing to do. But for some reason with drugs some people think that legalisation is somehow going to improve the situation. Sure we have a legal drug now in Alcohol and it costs the country Billions every year to deal with the consequences of its use. Not to mention the personal distress its use causes a large number of people. So by your logic having more illegal hard drugs it is somehow going to improve the situation. I think the people with this growing consensus need to wake up.

If you think alcohol is bad now then think about what it was like during Al Capone's days when it was prohibited. Crime and murder went through the roof for one simple fact - it was illegal and criminals could make a business from it.

He's dead right in saying they should all be made illegal, he's not talking about full scale promotion here but regulation and legalisation. It's the only way forward and how no one can see this is beyond me (nobody wants to).

Also with regards to Pedophilia, would you believe Germany now have adverts urging people to come forward to seek treatment. Who knows how that will work out but at least it's trying to be somewhat progressive because at the moment the only time help will be offered is when somebody is in jail and some poor childs life is ruined.

Also equating drugs to Pedophilia and murder is bloody ridiculous.

BBM77

O Riain wrote: »

If you think alcohol is bad now then think about what it was like during Al Capone's days when it was prohibited. Crime and murder went through the roof for one simple fact - it was illegal and criminals could make a business from it.

He's dead right in saying they should all be made illegal, he's not talking about full scale promotion here but regulation and legalisation. It's the only way forward and how no one can see this is beyond me (nobody wants to).

Also with regards to Pedophilia, would you believe Germany now have adverts urging people to come forward to seek treatment. Who knows how that will work out but at least it's trying to be somewhat progressive because at the moment the only time help will be offered is when somebody is in jail and some poor childs life is ruined.

Also equating drugs to Pedophilia and murder is bloody ridiculous.

I didn’t equate drugs to Paedophilia and murder I wrote that the same argument of you can’t stop it so make it legal could be applied. That just because something damaging cannot be stopped is not a reason to make it legal.

This was tried with Cannabis in the UK and they rolled back on it as it was leading to an increase in drug use and people going on to harder drugs. I just find it fanciful to suggest that legalising drugs is going to improve things.

O Riain

BBM77 wrote: »

O Riain wrote: »

If you think alcohol is bad now then think about what it was like during Al Capone's days when it was prohibited. Crime and murder went through the roof for one simple fact - it was illegal and criminals could make a business from it.

He's dead right in saying they should all be made illegal, he's not talking about full scale promotion here but regulation and legalisation. It's the only way forward and how no one can see this is beyond me (nobody wants to).

Also with regards to Pedophilia, would you believe Germany now have adverts urging people to come forward to seek treatment. Who knows how that will work out but at least it's trying to be somewhat progressive because at the moment the only time help will be offered is when somebody is in jail and some poor childs life is ruined.

Also equating drugs to Pedophilia and murder is bloody ridiculous.

I didn t equate drugs to Paedophilia and murder I wrote that the same argument of you can t stop it so make it legal could be applied. That just because something damaging cannot be stopped is not a reason to make it legal.

This was tried with Cannabis in the UK and they rolled back on it as it was leading to an increase in drug use and people going on to harder drugs. I just find it fanciful to suggest that legalising drugs is going to improve things.

Do you not think it would reduce the organised crime element? This is essentially 90% of the problem to be honest.

honeybadger

TheQuietFella wrote: »

http://www.wlrfm.com/news/local/74674-waterford-mayor-says-cuts-to-garda-drugs-unit-means-criminals-no-longer-fear-capture.html

Don't we all know that one of the largest drugs dealer in Waterford is a relation

of a high ranking member of the GS!!! Lets see some action there or probably

inaction.

who's the high ranking member of the GS you speak of

Wanderer78

BBM77 wrote: »

Did you ever think that the fact that these drugs are illegal deters most people from using them? Also you don’t need to legalise them in order to try prevent addiction problems in the first place.

I mean the same argument could be applied to Pedophilia and murder. These things are never going to be completely stopped either, why spend Billions on a legal system that tries to prevent, capture and punish the people who do these things. The reason it is done is because it is the right thing to do. But for some reason with drugs some people think that legalisation is somehow going to improve the situation. Sure we have a legal drug now in Alcohol and it costs the country Billions every year to deal with the consequences of its use. Not to mention the personal distress its use causes a large number of people. So by your logic having more illegal hard drugs it is somehow going to improve the situation. I think the people with this “growing consensus” need to wake up.

im sure the legal status has indeed deterred some in partaking in the consumption of illegal drugs but i dont think this bothers those that do at all. ive been in the company of many drug users throughout my life, ive seen most drugs being used, and i dont think those partaking give a damn about the legality of it all. id be interested in hearing your alternatives in dealing with addiction without legalising drugs?

as it stands at the moment, we have no real clue of the amount of drugs entering the country and whos really taking them. by legalising it, we would soon find out the answer to these questions. we re basically playing an out of sight, out of mind game with this. its really a reactive system to the issue. legalising would create a proactive system or begin to create one.

as ive said previously, you ll find many regular drug users suffering from very complex issues such as mental health issues. i would rather see the implementation of free services such as counselling etc for users, and have the industry completely controlled by the state which could provide safe dosages, safe facilities, and over all quality control of these substances, rather than leaving it all to very dangerous criminal gangs, that have absolutely no interest in the well being of users. we are ultimately leaving it to the underworld to run this industry and pushing it underground.

humans have consumed mind altering drugs since we walked the planet, this will continue until we cease to exist. do we really want to pumping endless amounts of public resources and money into fighting this? is it actually having a positive effect or even any effect at all? i dont think so.

the right thing to do! now what does that mean? that seems like a very subjective thing to me. of course pedofiles and murderers should be jailed, but rehabilitation is critical in these cases. sadly ive been informed not all criminals can be rehabilitated though. it is also very important that these criminals should be studied intensely while in custody in order to try prevent them from reoffending and we may also find out what causes these people to behave in the way they do. by doing so, may prevent these dreadful crimes being committed in the first place.

alcohol certainly is a very complicated problem but at least there are some sort of quality control systems in place and that our government has some sort of influence in its dealings. ireland certainly has a very serious problem with alcoholism, i personally think, we have some very serious mental health issues in this country which leads to alcoholism but im aware, so do most other countries on this planet. as others have said, if alcohol was illegal, it too would be controlled by dangerous criminal gangs.

apologies for the long post, but its a very complex issue. this ted talk always comes to mind in relation to this subject matter:

http://www.ted.com/talks/ethan_nadelmann_why_we_need_to_end_the_war_on_drugs

i also think russell brand is hitting the nail on the head in these documentaries:

tombliboo83

TheQuietFella wrote: »

http://www.wlrfm.com/news/local/74674-waterford-mayor-says-cuts-to-garda-drugs-unit-means-criminals-no-longer-fear-capture.html

Don't we all know that one of the largest drugs dealer in Waterford is a relation

of a high ranking member of the GS!!! Lets see some action there or probably

inaction.

Who is the high ranking member?

StringerBell

Seems we certainly don't all know that one of the largest drug dealers is a relation of a high ranking Garda so.

robtri

Wanderer78 wrote: »

I've been giving this a lifetime of thought folks, I'd be very interested in hearing your views on how the laws(globally) on drugs have actually worked?

Yes I believe all illegal drugs should be legalised and taken under control of governments. Tax their use just like other dangerous substances, I.e. tobacco, alcohol etc. Invest this revenue into our health services, particularly into our mental health services, to try prevent addiction problems in the first place or at least help people with their issues.

The global war on drugs has largely failed. We have spent billions and trillions on this, and as far as I can see, there are more drugs available and cheaper now than before. We 're wasting valuable resources and money chasing this one. You will never stop humans from taking these type of drugs, so why let highly dangerous criminal gangs control this industry?

There's a growing consensus for this type of approach, and I clearly agree.

there are numerous laws on murder as well and yet we still see murder happening all the time, therefore the system has failed here as well and we should legalise murder, pop a tax on it and it will be a perfect revenue stream....

your argument that because government struggle to control it, it should be legal is ridiculous.

whatever about legalising individual drugs, just plain stupid to say legalise it all....

O Riain

robtri wrote: »

Wanderer78 wrote: »

I've been giving this a lifetime of thought folks, I'd be very interested in hearing your views on how the laws(globally) on drugs have actually worked?

Yes I believe all illegal drugs should be legalised and taken under control of governments. Tax their use just like other dangerous substances, I.e. tobacco, alcohol etc. Invest this revenue into our health services, particularly into our mental health services, to try prevent addiction problems in the first place or at least help people with their issues.

The global war on drugs has largely failed. We have spent billions and trillions on this, and as far as I can see, there are more drugs available and cheaper now than before. We 're wasting valuable resources and money chasing this one. You will never stop humans from taking these type of drugs, so why let highly dangerous criminal gangs control this industry?

There's a growing consensus for this type of approach, and I clearly agree.

there are numerous laws on murder as well and yet we still see murder happening all the time, therefore the system has failed here as well and we should legalise murder, pop a tax on it and it will be a perfect revenue stream....

your argument that because government struggle to control it, it should be legal is ridiculous.

whatever about legalising individual drugs, just plain stupid to say legalise it all....

Do criminals make a business out of selling murder on a wide scale basis?

Suryavarman

BBM77 wrote: »

I didn’t equate drugs to Paedophilia and murder I wrote that the same argument of you can’t stop it so make it legal could be applied. That just because something damaging cannot be stopped is not a reason to make it legal.

This was tried with Cannabis in the UK and they rolled back on it as it was leading to an increase in drug use and people going on to harder drugs. I just find it fanciful to suggest that legalising drugs is going to improve things.

The problem with your comparison is that there is a reason we criminalise murder and paedophilia. Engaging in those activities hurts other people. Drug dealing and use doesn't. Criminalising of drugs causes more harm than good. It's hard to argue it even does any good at all whereas we know for certain it does a huge amount of harm.

Wanderer78

robtri wrote: »

there are numerous laws on murder as well and yet we still see murder happening all the time, therefore the system has failed here as well and we should legalise murder, pop a tax on it and it will be a perfect revenue stream....

your argument that because government struggle to control it, it should be legal is ridiculous.

whatever about legalising individual drugs, just plain stupid to say legalise it all....

not at all, as i said, theres a growing consensus globally, that our drug laws are failing or have failed as explained previously. i think the talks and documentaries above explain it very well. its truly is a complete waste of public resources and public funding trying to control this industry as is. i think russell brand is right in saying, drug use is a health issue not a legal issue!

this debate is becoming very silly, even immature with the inclusion of complex issues such as murder and pedofila.

robtri

Wanderer78 wrote: »

not at all, as i said, theres a growing consensus globally, that our drug laws are failing or have failed as explained previously. i think the talks and documentaries above explain it very well. its truly is a complete waste of public resources and public funding trying to control this industry as is. i think russell brand is right in saying, drug use is a health issue not a legal issue!

this debate is becoming very silly, even immature with the inclusion of complex issues such as murder and pedofila.

no its immature to think of drugs as a health issue, but if your taking advice from russell brand...

drugs and the issues they create are a lot more complex than murder...

any family that has had to deal with drug issues and the effects they have had will tell you.... legalising them will not make these issues go away nor the crime that is involved with users getting money to support their habits..

legalising drugs be similar to legal tobacco, look how no cartels or crime gangs are not involved in that trade as its all legal and tax paying..... ohhhh wait!!!!!

robtri

Suryavarman wrote: »

The problem with your comparison is that there is a reason we criminalise murder and paedophilia. Engaging in those activities hurts other people. Drug dealing and use doesn't. Criminalising of drugs causes more harm than good. It's hard to argue it even does any good at all whereas we know for certain it does a huge amount of harm.

you really live in fantasy land.. drug use and dealing doesnt hurt anyone....
wow!!!

Smondie

robtri wrote: »

no its immature to think of drugs as a health issue, ....

what sort of an issue would you classify it as?

robtri

Smondie wrote: »

what sort of an issue would you classify it as?

a complex issue, as it reaches into many different sectors, trying to pigeon hole it into one in my opinion is not dealing with the use and effects of drugs on people, family and communities.

Suryavarman

robtri wrote: »

you really live in fantasy land.. drug use and dealing doesnt hurt anyone....
wow!!!

The only person hurt by drug use is the drug user.

longshanks

Legalising the possession of drugs for personal use cut crime and addiction rates in Portugal. people caught with drugs get councelling. This resulted in lower HIV rates among users too. The policy makers took a step back to look at what the situation was, how they were dealing with it and what results they were achieving. They realised existing policies didn't work and decided to try something different.
It should, at the very least, be looked at here.

BBM77

Suryavarman wrote: »

The problem with your comparison is that there is a reason we criminalise murder and paedophilia. Engaging in those activities hurts other people. Drug dealing and use doesn't. Criminalising of drugs causes more harm than good. It's hard to argue it even does any good at all whereas we know for certain it does a huge amount of harm.

Quite simply this is a complete fantasy.

griffdaddy

Anyone who can't see how legalisation is the way forward needs their head checked.

The present situation: 'Drugs are dangerous and addictive, not to mention often impure and contaminated. Let's relinquish control entirely to dangerous criminals who are willing to mass murder to keep their stranglehold on their user base. While we're at it, let's destroy the lives of their victims, or indeed casual users by creating a social stigma and imposing robust, highly-consequential convictions for personal drug use.'

The potential situation if proper legislation was enacted: 'Let's take back control of all this dangerous stuff, ensure it comes through our channels only and is at least what it claims to be. Let's cripple the mass murdering crime gangs by choking them of their revenue stream. Let's help the bottom user who needs help and allow the casual user do whatever they want to their own body in the privacy of their own home.'

There is simply no excuse for continuing the way we are. The longer this sh1t goes on the more I think politicians should start to be charged with some kind of State negligence for allowing this madness to continue.

griffdaddy

griffdaddy wrote: »

Anyone who can't see how legalisation is the way forward needs their head checked...............

So the state establishes business relations with suppliers of cocaine, heroin etc..... import it, cut it and package for supply.

You're going to need some level of regulation as it's essentially a form of unprescribed medicine, so the IMB or someone will have to get involved. We couldn't have the legally sold daz or junk killing someone so it all has to be done seriously professionally.

Essentially, a gram or bag would cost multiples of what it does now so the crime gangs will continue to supply the bulk of the market with the illegal stuff.

Anyone who thinks legalising class A drugs is the way forward needs their head checked imo.

griffdaddy

Augeo wrote: »

So the state establishes business relations with suppliers of cocaine, heroin etc..... import it, cut it and package for supply.

You're going to need some level of regulation as it's essentially a form of unprescribed medicine, so the IMB or someone will have to get involved. We couldn't have the legally sold daz or junk killing someone so it all has to be done seriously professionally.

Essentially, a gram or bag would cost multiples of what it does now so the crime gangs will continue to supply the bulk of the market with the illegal stuff.

Actually you're right. The criminals are far better placed to do all of that, they are criminals after all. :rolleyes:

There is no magic answer to this. Drugs aren't going anywhere. They're available in every city in every country. Why are you so eager to allow criminals retain control of them? We should let them run the Transport system as well while we're at it. At least it wouldn't be so tied up in regulation

kupus

Suryavarman wrote: »

The only person hurt by drug use is the drug user.

Along with their families, parents brothers sisters kids etc,
the victims they rob to fund their habit, the victims family if it's a bad beating.

So no the only person hurt by drug use is not the user. In fact the user is the one person that is able to escape the madness of their own lives by taking drugs.
I knew a guy that contracted a blood infection by injecting a dirty needle, even after losing his arms and legs due to the infection it was always somebody else's fault.

irishgrover

BBM77 wrote: »

I didn’t equate drugs to Paedophilia and murder I wrote that the same argument of you can’t stop it so make it legal could be applied. That just because something damaging cannot be stopped is not a reason to make it legal. .

of course you equated drugs to Paedophilia and murder......totally ridiculous and sensationalist bullsh!t to make a point.....

griffdaddy

griffdaddy wrote: »

Actually you're right. The criminals are far better placed to do all of that, they are criminals after all. :rolleyes:

There is no magic answer to this. Drugs aren't going anywhere. They're available in every city in every country. Why are you so eager to allow criminals retain control of them? We should let them run the Transport system as well while we're at it. At least it wouldn't be so tied up in regulation

I simply highlighted that once regulated cost is added, the criminals can supply cheaper, most of the class A drug users won't go the regulated route and pay x2 x3 the price.

Look at the illegal cigarettes market, absolutely huge market in Ireland and the UK.

I don't see how you think I'm eager to allow criminals regain control by highlighting how regulation simply won't work, they don't go hand in hand. Eagerness and a grasp of reality aren't the same thing.

Criminals don't get into transport as it's not lucrative. It's all about the money.

So you honestly see some junkie buying a bag of brown for €80 in Tesco if they can get it for €30 on the street. Please wake up.

Key point is the criminals don't do all that, ffs, I mentioned the IMB. Your local daz dealer isn't audited by the IMB.

griffdaddy

Augeo wrote: »

I simply highlighted that once regulated cost is added, the criminals can supply cheaper, most of the class A drug users won't go the regulated route and pay x2 x3 the price.

Look at the illegal cigarettes market, absolutely huge market in Ireland and the UK.

I don't see how you think I'm eager to allow criminals regain control by highlighting how regulation simply won't work, they don't go hand in hand. Eagerness and a grasp of reality aren't the same thing.

Criminals don't get into transport as it's not lucrative. It's all about the money.

So you honestly see some junkie buying a bag of brown for €80 in Tesco if they can get it for €30 on the street. Please wake up.

Key point is the criminals don't do all that, ffs, I mentioned the IMB. Your local daz dealer isn't audited by the IMB.

Do you know the mark up that drug dealers make at the moment? In fact, do you know the mark up the pharmaceutical companies make on legal drugs? Do you know how much drugs cost to manufacture? There's plenty and plenty of financial wiggle space there to bolt on any kind of regulation and indeed support services you could want. Also, the exact model of legislation would have to be looked at and all of these kinks ironed out. It's not about allowing criminals regain control, they already have control. It's about taking control away from them. It's actually those who insist on allowing criminals to control drugs that are being defeatist, not the commonly spun line that legalisation is giving in.

Smondie

Augeo wrote: »

So the state establishes business relations with suppliers of cocaine, heroin etc..... import it, cut it and package for supply.

You're going to need some level of regulation as it's essentially a form of unprescribed medicine, so the IMB or someone will have to get involved. We couldn't have the legally sold daz or junk killing someone so it all has to be done seriously professionally.

Essentially, a gram or bag would cost multiples of what it does now so the crime gangs will continue to supply the bulk of the market with the illegal stuff.

Anyone who thinks legalising class A drugs is the way forward needs their head checked imo.

They already have links to manufactures and suppliers of drugs. Lots of pharmaceutical companies produce opioids and stimulants.

Now in relation to the price and illegal cigarettes. Why in most european countries can cigarettes be bought for 6euro and under, while in Ireland they are over 10 Euro? Our government has taxed them so heavily, they are driving the illegal cigarette trade.

griffdaddy

griffdaddy wrote: »

.........In fact, do you know the mark up the pharmaceutical companies make on legal drugs? ..............

I work in bio pharma and worked in API previously.
Your question is more or less impossible to answer.

Broadly speaking if drugs are legalised and regulated they will be more expensive than they are currently, to think otherwise is head in the clouds stuff. The Ming Flanagan brigade no doubt won't agree.

The control element was mentioned by someone else, at no time did I suggest criminals aren't controlliing the illegal drug market. Take up that chat with whoever brought it up. Which was you actually

PistolsAtDawn

BBM77 wrote: »

Did you ever think that the fact that these drugs are illegal deters most people from using them?

Did you ever think that the fact that these drugs are illegal is the exact reason why a lot of young people start taking them?

PistolsAtDawn

BBM77 wrote: »

Did you ever think that the fact that these drugs are illegal deters most people from using them? Also you don’t need to legalise them in order to try prevent addiction problems in the first place.

I mean the same argument could be applied to Pedophilia and murder. These things are never going to be completely stopped either, why spend Billions on a legal system that tries to prevent, capture and punish the people who do these things. The reason it is done is because it is the right thing to do. But for some reason with drugs some people think that legalisation is somehow going to improve the situation. Sure we have a legal drug now in Alcohol and it costs the country Billions every year to deal with the consequences of its use. Not to mention the personal distress its use causes a large number of people. So by your logic having more illegal hard drugs it is somehow going to improve the situation. I think the people with this “growing consensus” need to wake up.

Did you ever take any illegal drugs yourself?

PistolsAtDawn

robtri wrote: »

no its immature to think of drugs as a health issue, but if your taking advice from russell brand...

drugs and the issues they create are a lot more complex than murder...

any family that has had to deal with drug issues and the effects they have had will tell you.... legalising them will not make these issues go away nor the crime that is involved with users getting money to support their habits..

legalising drugs be similar to legal tobacco, look how no cartels or crime gangs are not involved in that trade as its all legal and tax paying..... ohhhh wait!!!!!

Cartels and crime gangs are involved in every trade; property, investment banking etc... but they don't dominate these trades since these trades are controlled by law abiding people who are in the majority, unlike the current situation with illegal drugs.

Smondie

How much is a gram of weed here vs Holland or Portugal?

O Riain

I know

Suryavarman wrote: »

robtri wrote: »

you really live in fantasy land.. drug use and dealing doesnt hurt anyone....
wow!!!

The only person hurt by drug use is the drug user.

kupus wrote: »

Suryavarman wrote: »

The only person hurt by drug use is the drug user.

Along with their families, parents brothers sisters kids etc,
the victims they rob to fund their habit, the victims family if it's a bad beating.

So no the only person hurt by drug use is not the user. In fact the user is the one person that is able to escape the madness of their own lives by taking drugs.
I knew a guy that contracted a blood infection by injecting a dirty needle, even after losing his arms and legs due to the infection it was always somebody else's fault.

See here's the thing, for every 1 addict, who is destroying everyone's lives around them, there are 100 people out there using drugs for recreation and harming no body, not even themselves. Yes there are people who have addictive personalities or mental health issues who have their problems increased by drugs but many of these people will find whatever substance they can to abuse in the absence of drugs. Some would sniff bleach out of a mop and bucket to get high. Also don't think for a second that I'm saying all people with mental health issues behave like this, just some.

It does get very complicated with the the harder destructive drugs (like Heroin and Meth) and I am in no position to even pretend to know how these could be handled. But for the likes of Weed, Ecstasy and even Cocaine - these should be legalized and regulated without question.

Yes you will probably still get some awful stuff on the criminal black market but you can guarantee that the criminal element will be hugely reduced.

By the way, most peoples impression of drugs on this forum obviously come from Movies, TV Shows and the News and have no sense of the actual reality of recreational drug use. People love to have a great opinion on something they clearly have no idea about. This is frustrating.

griffdaddy

Augeo wrote: »

I work in bio pharma and worked in API previously.
Your question is more or less impossible to answer.

Broadly speaking if drugs are legalised and regulated they will be more expensive than they are currently, to think otherwise is head in the clouds stuff. The Ming Flanagan brigade no doubt won't agree.

The control element was mentioned by someone else, at no time did I suggest criminals aren't controlliing the illegal drug market. Take up that chat with whoever brought it up. Which was you actually

How is my question impossible to answer yet your assumption about cost of regulation is to be taken as gospel? Why would they be more expensive broadly speaking? Because we get ripped off for legal medication in this country it's safe to assume that we'll get ripped off for legalised drugs as well? How is there such a gulf in pricing between here and other EU states.

I'm not part of the Ming Flanagan, free da weed brigade at all. I'm part of the stop shooting people in the streets and systematically wrecking lives brigade. The status quo doesn't work, let's try something else for once. Surely after 50 years of this sh1t not working it's time?

Suryavarman

BBM77 wrote: »

Quite simply this is a complete fantasy.

It isn't. If it was then you'd be able to tell us why it is.

kupus wrote: »

Along with their families, parents brothers sisters kids etc,
the victims they rob to fund their habit, the victims family if it's a bad beating.

So no the only person hurt by drug use is not the user. In fact the user is the one person that is able to escape the madness of their own lives by taking drugs.
I knew a guy that contracted a blood infection by injecting a dirty needle, even after losing his arms and legs due to the infection it was always somebody else's fault.

If I smoke a joint, take a pill or sniff a line nobody is harmed. You seem to be referring to a very, very small minority of drug users displaying your complete ignorance of the topic. You clearly don't know the difference between abuse/addiction and use, which begs the question: why are you even bothering to post your ignorant opinions on the matter?

If someone drink drives and kills someone, it isn't alcohol that hurts people. It's the driver being an a*shole.

Should we criminalise alcohol because some alcoholics beat their spouse?

How exactly does criminalisation make the situation any better? Drugs are already illegal and this person (who I'm 100% sure exists and isn't completely made up to support your views) lost his arms and legs. What exactly do you think is going to happen if drugs are legalised? Is his head going to fall off?

Suryavarman

Augeo wrote: »

I work in bio pharma and worked in API previously.
Your question is more or less impossible to answer.

Broadly speaking if drugs are legalised and regulated they will be more expensive than they are currently, to think otherwise is head in the clouds stuff. The Ming Flanagan brigade no doubt won't agree.

The control element was mentioned by someone else, at no time did I suggest criminals aren't controlliing the illegal drug market. Take up that chat with whoever brought it up. Which was you actually

What exactly is it about working in bio pharma that makes you an expert on the economics of the illicit drugs trade?

Johnboy1951

(My response is broken into several posts because I am unable to properly post on Boards)

Somewhere close to 10% of 'drug users', whether that be the regulated alcohol or unregulated 'street drugs' or prescription drugs', become addicted.
It appears that it matters little which 'drug' is the one of choice, the results are similar.
To my mind alcohol is the closest regulated drug to the unregulated street drugs that are the subject of this thread.

Johnboy1951

Part 2

We have laws governing behaviour of people who take drugs ... long standing 'drink & drive' laws, 'drunk & disorderly' and so on. So we, as a society, have long recognised that there can be some negative effects from the consumption of alcohol and have consequently regulated behaviour through laws.
We are now more aware of the health costs to a proportion of users/abusers of alcohol, such as liver disease and so on. Greater emphasis is also now being placed on the cost of this abuse and subsequent misbehaviour as well as the long term costs to society's health service.
We recognise alcoholism as a disease rather than a choice. We offer support to those who would like to break their habit and go alcohol free. Those who succeed are lauded and recognised for their 'achievement'.

Johnboy1951

Part 3

Unlike alcohol, I cannot legally smoke 'a joint'. The substance is illegal to posses or use. Yet I can legally consume the other drug, alcohol. I see no logic in this situation at all. All drugs, except those prescribed and sold under prescription should be made illegal, or all should be regulated like alcohol. It is, logically, a ridiculous situation we have at the moment.
Addicted users of any drug belong in treatment!
Dealers in illegal drugs belong in prison!
What about the other 90% of users who are not addicted?
Do they too belong 'in treatment' or maybe 'in prison'?
The most reasonable answer is neither. They should be left alone to live their lives as they chose. That could be done if the present illegal drugs were regulated and dispensed only from premises licenced for the purpose.

O Riain

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

Part 3

Unlike alcohol, I cannot legally smoke 'a joint'. The substance is illegal to posses or use. Yet I can legally consume the other drug, alcohol. I see no logic in this situation at all. All drugs, except those prescribed and sold under prescription should be made illegal, or all should be regulated like alcohol. It is, logically, a ridiculous situation we have at the moment.
Addicted users of any drug belong in treatment!
Dealers in illegal drugs belong in prison!
What about the other 90% of users who are not addicted?
Do they too belong 'in treatment' or maybe 'in prison'?
The most reasonable answer is neither. They should be left alone to live their lives as they chose. That could be done if the present illegal drugs were regulated and dispensed only from premises licenced for the purpose.

Not to mention the extra tax intake from this. Look at how states in the US and benefitting from extra tax from selling weed. The tax intake is going directly to schools and hospitals. I was reading about schools that were having their budgets cut every year, for as long as they could remember, actually having their budgets increased due to the tax intake from selling Marijuana.

Also those states have not spiralled into chaos like some people seem to think is a sure thing with drug legalisation.

starshine1234

O Riain wrote: »

...
It does get very complicated with the the harder destructive drugs (like Heroin and Meth) and I am in no position to even pretend to know how these could be handled. But for the likes of Weed, Ecstasy and even Cocaine - these should be legalized and regulated without question.
...

Cocaine is not safer than heroin.

Cocaine is probably the most dangerous drug that is considered for legalisation.

Doctors concede that heroin could be used everyday by a user for their lifetime with no real medical downside. The person may not be a huge contributor to society but currently loads of people don't contribute to society.

Cocaine is very dangerous medically. It causes heart problems. Several celebrity users have died at young ages due to cocaine.

I know Philip Seymour Hoffman died from a heroin overdose. But he did manage to function to a high level while being a heroin user. Heroin users often die from overdoses and overdoses are caused by unregulated drugs. A strong batch of heroin is sold and many users die as they inadvertently use too much.
Legalisation would save lives.


Cannabis should be legalised. Immediately less people would be harmed by alcohol.

GHB should be legalised for alcoholics. It provides much the same buzz as alcohol without many of the downsides

E should be legalised as it is more or less completely safe.

Heroin is safe if used correctly, like in hospitals.

Cocaine is dangerous and its danger cannot be limited. It is bad for the heart, and bad for society as users feel like supermen and often or sometimes become violent.

Drugs like mushrooms are medically safe but can cause physcological damage in some cases. Overall, the balance would be to legalise them with warnings.

Smoking tobacco is very dangerous.



The current drugs policy is wrong and I have no respect for Ireland, or for our political system, as a result. This disrespect for institutions is important and should be considered in the debate.

Smondie

Fentanyl sold as herion is the cause of a lot of "herion" overdoses.

Edgarfrndly

I haven't touched anything in a very long time - but as a teen, it was easier to get hash than beers from the off license. Dealers don't ask you for ID. All they care about is if you can pay.

There are pros and cons of the legalisation proposal.

The obvious pros are that the drugs will not be contaminated with other substances, which increase the dangers that go with taking them. Also, it will cut out drug dealers and reduce the crime associated with them. It will also make it easier for drug users to find support and treatment, rather than being locked away for drug use - which only further perpetuates their problems.

I do have some qualms however with making certain drugs legal. I can only speak from experience, but a teenager has a very curious mind and is very easily swayed. When I was a teen, it was mostly just hash flying around in the hands of the average teen drug user.

Nowadays, at least in Waterford - it's scary how many young people are addicted to heroin. I would hate to see a situation where a teen took heroin legally out of pure curiosity and became addicted to it. Heroin is highly addictive and once you're on it - it's extremely difficult to break free.

Most heroin users today only start because they are in a very specific circle of people, and placed in situations where its use is within their grasp.

Most people are thankfully not within this circle - but I feel that legalisation of heroin would perhaps widen this circle and just send someone down the wrong path that would have otherwise never come into a situation where they would have taken it.

There's no perfect answer - it's really about weighing up which is the more functional response.

starshine1234

I would hope that if weed, E, GHB and mushrooms were legalised that that would be enough.

I know that there is nothing for heroin users on that list. Cocaine users might be able to get by using E.

If heroin was fully legalised and sold cheaply I'd be concerned that there'd be an explosion of users. While I think it'd be medically safe for those users I agree that they might well remain as users for ever.
Is that a problem society should seek to avoid?


I also call for a universal income where people receive money for free. If that was the case then it might not matter if people chose to become full time heroin users.



Some people are confused at the cost of drugs. If drugs were fully legal and sold with no restrictions then they'd be extremely cheap. Practically free.

Criminals can only exist in the drugs market because of prohibition. That's the only reason.

Speaking as a pharmacist, legalising all drugs would be a good first step. All the money saved from the "war on drugs" could be invested in rehab facilities and providing services in areas that have a high level of drug use. The issue of drug addiction is a social issue first and foremost. The reason most people start taking heroin is because their lives are bleak and they are looking for respite. Again, if anybody could provide some studies about how the current system is better than legalisation. Id be all ears

StupidLikeAFox

starshine1234 wrote: »

If heroin was fully legalised and sold cheaply I'd be concerned that there'd be an explosion of users.

Why do you think this? Heroin is easier to get in Ireland than alcohol - drug dealers have no closing time and don't ask for ID. There is very little stopping people trying heroin if they choose to.

Also, any form of drug regulation or legalisation is going to result in the drugs being tightly controlled, especially the harder ones. You won't see corner shops popping up all over the place that you can casually drop in for you evening paper and a bag of gear