Dialing in or Hold over?

Cass

Was reading an article that said dialing in for shots under 600 yrds is not only wrong, but should not be done.

The three reasons listed were:

1. Not all scopes are the same - Different scopes will give different adjustments regardless of whether they are all 1/4" click value (or whatever your scopes come in) or not.
2. Maths - Having to use a formula to work out the adjustment needs a good level of math ability. Even those good at it can make the wrong the adjustments.
3. Different scenarios/situations - Even a dope chart is unworkable if the target moves from the time to adjust to the time you take the shot.

The article claims all you need is a good ballistic reticle and hold over.


Now i've used both methods, and this only applies to field hunting, and both have worked for me. I prefer adjusting for longer range stuff, but will use hold over on the shots were an adjustment is so small it's not worth my time to do it.

For example.

• If i have a 100 yard zero and i see a fox at 350 yards. I'll either know my adjustment or refer to my dope chart to dial up the clicks.
• If i see a rabbit at 130 yards and my zero is 100 then i simply hold off a little as (say using a 223) the adjustment of two clicks is unnecessary.

The article claims all you need to do is range the target, have a scope with a good ballistic reticle, hold over the required amount and take the shot. Thy even mention a cheat chart with your holdovers for the various ranges.

Now i see a few problems with this line of thinking.

1. In my mind such a chart (hold over) is the exact same as a dope chart.
2. What do they consider a good scope and reticle compared to a bad one.
3. Do they assume the shooter is relying completely on a ballitic program and ignore the fact that most dope charts are done from actually shooting the various distances.
4. How is a ballistic reticle more accurate at long range that clicking. You wn't be on a hash mark or mil-dot for every shoot so that means you have to aim using an "imagined" point of aim on the reticle.
5. At longer distances the margin for error with hold over, for me, is as bad as a poorly dialed in scope.
6. They assume everyone carries a range finder

The articles finishes with a tip on using your ranging reticle setting or any setting on a second focal plane scope. Well this contradicts their first point about not all scopes being the same. Different manufacturers will use different mags for their ranging reticle and depending on the quality of the scope the ranging reticle may not be entirely accurate past a set distance.



So i'm curious what ye guys think and do. Do you holdover, adjust or a combo of both and why.

clivej

Horses for courses.

Stalking deer I both know my drops out to 300y and also use the turrets & adjust if I have time. Over 300y I'd adjust the recital from either my drop chart or the phone app. And if you zero your rifle for the best 'Point Blank Range' your always be on the kill zone for the animal your hunting.

Target shooting I'd always adjust the recital even if it's only 100y (my rifle is zeroed for 200y).

Ziggieire

I read the first line and i was sure you had lost your marbles. then it read it again and it said under 600 not over.

I know for me 600 is a 4.1 mil hold, And yes a lot of cheaper optics will have small error in elevation that will compound and you might not see till 600+ yards.
But you will only see the error if you compare it to a mathematically derived ballistics chart (assuming your inputted data is correct). lets say you dial 10 for 1000yards, and its always 10 on your scope, then you input your details in a computer and it said it should be 11, Nothing wrong with you dialing your 10 if you know its 10 and will always be 10.
March optics and those new Sig Sauer are a good example, some show a compound error at long range but as long as the error is constant every time it does not matter.
If i was hunting,(i dont hunt anything at 600 yards) or just taking 1 shot i would hold.
If i was Shooting paper i would dial and hold wind.

Cass

clivej wrote: »

Stalking deer I both know my drops out to 300y and also use the turrets & adjust if I have time. Over 300y I'd adjust the recital from either my drop chart or the phone app. And if you zero your rifle for the best 'Point Blank Range' your always be on the kill zone for the animal your hunting.

See there is the thing. The article says you need to be a math genius to work out the drop/clicks. Well if you carry a range finder that might have some basis in fact, but if you don't carry a range finder then you need to know the formula regardless to work out the distance (approx). This is all with the given that you don't know the land and/or the distance to target.

CliveJ wrote:

Target shooting I'd always adjust the recital even if it's only 100y (my rifle is zeroed for 200y).

Ziggieire wrote: »

If i was Shooting paper i would dial and hold wind.

The article is focused on this from a hunting point of view. They claim the popularity in long range target shooting and the fascination with snipers/sniping has lead to an increase in the use of dialing over holdover.

I'd dismiss the latter immediately. If TV shows have taught me anything its that it's mostly make believe/sensationalist so the "fascination" with snipers is a moot point, to me. It doens't enter my thinking.

As for the former point i fail to see how knowing your adjustments because of training/practice of long range shooting is not only a bad thing but a wrong thing. I know the drops of my 308 (not my FTR) from 50 out to 600 yards. Not from a ballistics program, but from actually shooting it. So why is my dialing up and not holding off wrong?

I read the first line and i was sure you had lost your marbles. then it read it again and it said under 600 not over.

Don't get ya. I don't make any claims about what is right or wrong, the article does. And if it was over 600 yards how would this be any better or reflect on the condition of my marbles?

But you will only see the error if you compare it to a mathematically derived ballistics chart (assuming your inputted data is correct). lets say you dial 10 for 1000 yards, and its always 10 on your scope, then you input your details in a computer and it said it should be 11, Nothing wrong with you dialing your 10 if you know its 10 and will always be 10.

Ballistics programs are not infallible. Like your example my drops for F-Class only matched the ballistics program for the first few hundred yard then as i exceeded 500 or so the actual, real world, adjustments were not what the ballistics program said they would be. Sometimes by a factor of 3+ moa (which at 1,000 yards would be over 3 feet. This was using a high end scope and the ballistics program issued by the scope manufacturer.

If i was hunting,(i dont hunt anything at 600 yards) or just taking 1 shot i would hold.

As is the reason for the thread out to what distance would you be comfortable doing this? How do you know how much to hold? Would it be because of a formula, Ballistic program, actual drop chart, etc.?

In my opinion there is no wrong or right answer here. I'm just wondering why someone would say that dialing is is wrong. Not, as Clivej said, each to heir own, but actually wrong.

One last thing. I've never used an actual ballistic reticle, well not one with ranges etched on it. So a question to those that have. Do they work with all calibers?

IOW if i have it on a .308 will the 200, 250, 300......... 600 yard markings be the same when i mount it to a 243, 6.5 223, etc? Or will it require re-zeroing, range time and a drop chart (exactly like dialing in) to get it right.

Ziggieire

i tough you said when i read it fast, you should never dial past 600, Hence marbles.

Rabbits: ill always holdover, but with ffp scope i can roughly tell the distance with the mil markers vs height.
Foxes: i zero 1inch high . Hold zero on the chest and squeese, only have about 3 seconds with the foxes around here. that will get a kill out to 300 yards.
Deer: range finder, i would not shoot over 300 yards and take a neck shot. Get the exact range and hold or dial.

Cass

Ziggieire wrote: »

i tough you said when i read it fast, you should never dial past 600, Hence marbles.

Ah.

Vegeta

Ballistic reticles are junk imho. They're tied to a particular bullet weight/calibre combination so are extremely inflexible and god help you if you cannot buy the ammo weights they're meant for.

I can see the merit of the argument for modern reticles in FFP scopes which allow for very accurate holdover. Apparently quite a few of the PRS competitors are using this combo to good effect for whatever that's worth.

My personal preference is for dialing but like yourself will holdover for closer in stuff where the difference between my estimate and the actual drop will not cause a wild miss.

Ziggieire

On BDC reticules . the only one that kinda works is a subsonic .22lr, Otherwise theres far to many variables in factory ammunition, plus weather, hight above sea level, etc.

zeissman

On my stalking rifle I zero at 100 yards and dial up for longer shots out to a max of 300 yards.
My 204 is usually left one inch high at 100 yards so it's good to about 280 yards and if I want to take a longer shot I dial up.
I have a mill dot reticle on my 22lr which is true at 10 power so I zero at 50 yards and use the dots for holdover at longer ranges.

cookimonster

Zero my .243 with 100 gr. soft points 1 inch high at 100 yards. This gives me approximately a 200 yards zero. I have shot out to a measured 300 yards on paper and life sized deer targets. Using hold over based on average deer head and neck profile I will land a neck shot consistently out to the 300.
But I must stress that if wind and target presentation are less then ideal I will always opt for the closer point blank shot.