M7 Average speed cameras

The_Pete_Fella

I've been up and down the M7 every weekend and only today I noticed the new average speed sign's that from what I can gather have only been put up last week. I'm finding it very hard to find any info on the set up other than the few posts in the thread on boards about the similar set up within the port tunnel.

So who has any info, are the live? have they started to fine motorist? is this a pilot?

I'm not to worried about my speed through there but just intrigued by lack of info about them.

porsche boy

They are temporary cameras where the m7/m9 works are being done. Average speed of 60kph for tye length of the works, even at 7am in the morning when nobody's working on the sh1tting thing.

The_Pete_Fella

porsche boy wrote: »

They are temporary cameras where the m7/m9 works are being done. Average speed of 60kph for tye length of the works, even at 7am in the morning when nobody's working on the sh1tting thing.

yeah I know and understand the process of average speed detection but its a relatively new idea in this country. Are the issuing fixed notices on the back of them, who is operating the monitoring and issuing of penalties etc.

Mycroft H

Might be an idea for someone to make a freedom of information request?

RandomAccess

I drove this last night and it was mayhem, I reckon it would be safer with a higher speed limit than 60k. Drivers bunching up an awful lot at that speed.

TrailerBob

There are two sets of cameras up, they look identical to those used in the UK. As to whether any fines have been issued, I haven't heard of any, and the Bus Eireann lads seem to be bombing along there

Kopparberg Strawberry and Lime

TrailerBob wrote: »

There are two sets of cameras up, they look identical to those used in the UK. As to whether any fines have been issued, I haven't heard of any, and the Bus Eireann lads seem to be bombing along there

As a bus eireann lad i slow it right down to 59kph on cruise control in both coach and car.

BUT some drivers are flying through, so if any of them get any fines I'll pass it on...

TrailerBob

Glad to hear it, I got the headlight flash from one the other day and away he went. Having said that, so did a Dublin coach (for a bit of balance!)

Mycroft H

RandomAccess wrote: »

I drove this last night and it was mayhem, I reckon it would be safer with a higher speed limit than 60k. Drivers bunching up an awful lot at that speed.

Is it safe for the lads in working? Presumable this is what's driving this. I'd say it's set out in H&S guidelines.

pippip

Average Speed Camera signs located along temporary roadworks on the M7 are not recording registration numbers, it has been confirmed.

Motorists had been worried that they could receive €80 fines and penalty points if they accidentally exceeded the 60km/hour between Junction 10 (Newbridge) to the Bundle of Sticks Roundabout.

However Kildare Co Council said the Average Speed Cameras are there on a trial basis and won't be recording registration numbers of vehicles.

A spokesperson told KildareNow: "There is a trial of Average Speed Camera in use on the M7.

"The cameras record the average speeds of the traffic through the works. Information is not recorded regarding registration plates etc. and the purpose is to monitor average traffic speeds."

Average Speed Cameras are in use in other European Countries and measure a vehicle's speed from one point to another using sets of inter-connected cameras.

Under the Road Traffic Act, Kildare County Council can apply temporary speed limits at the location of road works.

The decision is made in consultation with Gardai and the National Roads Authority.

The road works, which are a preparation to a full upgrade of the M7, are set to continue until the end of October.

http://www.kildarenow.com/news/the-truth-about-the-average-speed-cameras-on-the-m7/111629

drunkmonkey

Ahh right so there just calculating how much revenue they can make with a trial.

2 choices for drivers on the M7, give it the welly to put the average speed of the road up or everybody drive under 60kph so they think they'll make nothing spending money on cameras.

_Kaiser_

^^ Good news, but what it really means is that they're making the situation more dangerous for both motorists and their workers for no reason.

Some people will read that article and proceed based on the conditions at the time without worrying about the speedo, some of course will be assholes and try to tear through it as there's no penalty after all, and then you'll have others who'll see the signs and drop anchor.

How is any of that safer than a more realistic 80 km/h limit active only when the works are ongoing, or until the works extend to where more would be impractical (cones, barriers etc)

mikeecho

Mycroft H wrote: »

Might be an idea for someone to make a freedom of information request?

Someone should do something

skywanderer

mikeecho wrote: »

Someone should do something

Is there anything to be said for another Mass? Under 60km/h and the bomb will explode.

RandomAccess

Mycroft H wrote: »

Is it safe for the lads in working? Presumable this is what's driving this. I'd say it's set out in H&S guidelines.

The effect I observed was the same as if you parked a go safe van on the side of the motorway, with another one every 250m for a few Kms.

Concertina braking, tailgating, overtaking, a recipe for an epic pile up.

dr.fuzzenstein

RandomAccess wrote: »

The effect I observed was the same as if you parked a go safe van on the side of the motorway, with another one every 250m for a few Kms.

Concertina braking, tailgating, overtaking, a recipe for an epic pile up.

Plus, if a worker does step out on the road, you have people staring fixedly at their speedometer and nothing else.
Yes, this is much safer. :rolleyes:

Shint0

I had wondered about this and thought they might be simply to act as a safety measure to encourage people to slow down and adhere to the speed limit during the roadworks but perhaps not enforced.

Approaching them people are actually slowing down, cars are bunching up and I thought it was a bit hazardous which sort of defeats the purpose if it's purely a safety measure rather than testing the waters for its future cash cow potential.

RandomAccess

Speed limit like that might work with the system in the port tunnel, where they ask trucks to keep two chevrons apart.

One_Of_Shanks

I drive that stretch every morning (around 6.45am-7am ish) on the way to work and 60 km seems a bit overkill imo, I could understand 80 km which would be fairly sensible.
But anyway.... What's happening is about 50% seem to be obeying the 60 limit (plenty doing about 30-40km for what I can only imagine is their way of "playing safe" for the cameras) and the other half are trying to just get through it as fast as possible, obviously plenty of people must know that they're not recording reg numbers or issuing fines/points. (either that or they're blind)

Either way the end result is like others have described with constant braking, people tail-gating, switching lanes, some flashing the lights and general mayhem.

_Kaiser_

Right.. you all owe me a coffee

Drove this this morning and the same chaos of people dropping anchor at the first set of cameras, weaving etc and then putting the foot down until they reach the second set - at which the same craic started again, so I decided to make some calls to pass the rest of the trip...

- Naas Gardai first and the Garda on the desk had read the same article above and as far as she was aware, they (AGS) aren't enforcing penalties.. but she transferred me to Traffic who are to call me back
- Kildare Co Co (Roads section) transferred me to the NRA (I think - connection wasn't great at that point) who confirmed the same details of the KildareNow article, but is having someone call me back as well to confirm

In both cases I highlighted the dangers being caused by these cameras and that it's only a matter of time before a pile-up happens (especially when the schools go back). I suggested a limit of 80 would be safer for all concerned given the current level of works, enforced only when they're actually active.

So that's what I found out.. will update later when I hear more

Shint0

Good on you, Kaiser, for taking the initiative if no other authorities seem to be monitoring the situation. It will be interesting to see if they take your input on board.

dr.fuzzenstein

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

Right.. you all owe me a coffee

Drove this this morning and the same chaos of people dropping anchor at the first set of cameras, weaving etc and then putting the foot down until they reach the second set - at which the same craic started again, so I decided to make some calls to pass the rest of the trip...

- Naas Gardai first and the Garda on the desk had read the same article above and as far as she was aware, they (AGS) aren't enforcing penalties.. but she transferred me to Traffic who are to call me back
- Kildare Co Co (Roads section) transferred me to the NRA (I think - connection wasn't great at that point) who confirmed the same details of the KildareNow article, but is having someone call me back as well to confirm

In both cases I highlighted the dangers being caused by these cameras and that it's only a matter of time before a pile-up happens (especially when the schools go back). I suggested a limit of 80 would be safer for all concerned given the current level of works, enforced only when they're actually active.

So that's what I found out.. will update later when I hear more

This is Ireland. Some 89 year old Victor Meldrew in the RSA once heard "Speed Kills!" and is now on a crusade against anyone going over the speedlimit anywhere and under any conditions (safe driving). Then some politician heard he can get his incompetent mug in the papers and garner votes. The average Irish voter laps that sh*t up like the cat the cream (won't someone please think of the children).
So you see the above will virtually guarantee that the entire country will be a 60 km/h speed limit covered in speed cameras and everything else will be grand. So it will be like bumper cars.

ironclaw

I love how people have no concept of how these cameras actually work. Brake at the first set, speed up between them, and then brake again at the second set.

This is why we can't have nice things in this country.

One_Of_Shanks

ironclaw wrote: »

I love how people have no concept of how these cameras actually work. Brake at the first set, speed up between them, and then brake again at the second set.

They're not issuing fines/points so plenty of people skip the braking part and just fly past them.

ironclaw

One_Of_Shanks wrote: »

They're not issuing fines/points so plenty of people skip the braking part and just fly past them.

Fine or not, it still shows the utter stupidity of a segment of the Irish motoring public. The fact someone cannot understand the concept of average is actually frightening.

One_Of_Shanks

ironclaw wrote: »

Fine or not, it still shows the utter stupidity of a segment of the Irish motoring public. The fact someone cannot understand the concept of average is actually frightening.

Aye, true!

ABC101

Went northbound at 60 kph the other day, majority of traffic stayed like a long convoy behind me.

Felt a bit of an idiot as 60kph feels like walking would be faster. No road works in progress either. However the overtaking lane was clear so if somebody wished to get past they could do it no problem.

The vulture cameras a very sneakily placed behind the large electronic billboard sign, the cameras will see you first before you notice them. In addition the gantry is not painted yellow, still galvanised steel.

While the back and sides of the camera may be yellow, they are so small that they are almost the indistinguishable from other traffic flow cameras.

Heading southbound late the other night, I kept to 63kph as the overtaking lane was closed. Again a long convoy of traffic behind me chomping at the bit to get past. I felt like a bit of an idiot, but I stuck to the speed limit.

Anyway at the end of the road works where the M7/M9 junction is, a car and caravan where pulled over, a second white passenger car was in front of the car/ caravan but it had intense flashing red lights in the rear bumper. No flashing blue lights and I did not see any other markings on the vehicle.

Slightly beyond these vehicles were three people in yellow and silver reflective jackets observing traffic coming towards them. Not sure what they were doing as it was around midnight, raining, lots of traffic cones, flashing yellow lights from work vehicles and then the flashing red lights, not to mention getting blinded by the lights of the long convoy behind me. All very unclear / confusing etc

So my question is ...do some Garda vehicles have red flashing lights in the bumper only? I'm wondering was there a speed check at the m7/m9 junction and the caravan got pulled over?

Is it possible to select which lights to illuminate in a Garda car? Leave the lightbar on the roof off but the red flashing lights in the bumper on? And why fit red flashing lights in the bumper, I would have thought they should be blue?

Maybe it wasn't a Garda car at all, perhaps a motorway safety vehicle?

Can anybody clarify please?

Anyway while I felt guilty about holding traffic up by observing the speed limit, I think I had a lucky escape with a speed trap, but not sure!

RandomAccess

Customs have blue lights on their cars as far as I know.

Mycroft H

Some 999 lights have flashing red for static motorway work. Red light travels further than blue at night

Could be a variation on these.

Veloce

I went through this earlier this evening. I attempted to do 60km/h but it was just unsafe to do so. I had two artic trucks overtake me and cars flashing me to speed up. Christ. Eventually I just kept with the flow of traffic (80km/h) which was a lot safer

Andrewf20

Whats the story with having miles of "roadworks" and 60km/h speed limits with no one working on them. Drove this road twice over the last 2 days and it was the same both times.

Ive seen this before on Irish roads and it drive me nuts.

One_Of_Shanks

Every day to work. Every day home from work.

My day was long enough but it's become stupid now. And I still haven't driven by and seen anyone working there.

Bit of a piss take now

_Kaiser_

The only way it's likely to change is if ye call Naas Gardai, Kildare Co Co and the NRA to express your concerns about it. As an update none of them followed-up this week but the 3 people I did speak to all said the limits weren't being enforced with points/fines.

If enough people call them though then maybe they'll get the hint and review it before a pile-up DOES happen when the schools go back/traffic gets heavier and the mornings/evenings get darker.

ABC101

I've been through the road works several times now. It would appear that the two pairs of vulture cameras are at the more eastern side of the road works and only for a very small section just before junction 10 eastbound.

If my observation is correct then the cameras are only checking average speed in a rather small section of the road works, not along the entire length.

Effectively one could zip along at 100kph and at the large electronic sign gantry reduce to 60kph, a short distance later just before J10 is the second pair of vultures, do one could zip back up to 100 kph. Not that I am recommending exceeding 60kph at all.

That's assuming my observations are correct.

So this leads me to a rather cynical assumption.

If the speed limit is set to a more extreme lower limit, motorists will tend to drive to a higher more practical speed, thereby giving a rather high number of drivers who are flouting the speed regulations.

If this proves to be so..... Then when the statistics are published from the averaging camera trial there is going to be an outcry from the media about all the dangerous speeders out there and of course no mention that the speed limit was set at a ridiculously low limit, or that there was nobody working on the road!!

Call me a cynic ..... But I smell a rat!

I think it's nothing to do with safety of the road workers at all, because if it is why not measure average speed along the entire length of the road works? Why only a small section?

If my observations are correct....I think it is designed to implement a averaging trial in the knowledge that the results will show a large % of motorists are flouting traffic regulations, therefore there is a need for vulture cameras to be rolled out nation wide.

The idea that the cameras are on trial does not stack up for me, averaging speed cameras is not a new technology, it is tried and proven elsewhere in the world, it already works and does not have to be set up on a trial basis to see if it works in Ireland.

highdef

Well fingers crossed that your theory is correct and that the results will show a large % of motorists are flouting traffic regulations and we get average speed cameras everywhere.

Mint Sauce

Veloce wrote: »

I went through this earlier this evening. I attempted to do 60km/h but it was just unsafe to do so. I had two artic trucks overtake me and cars flashing me to speed up. Christ. Eventually I just kept with the flow of traffic (80km/h) which was a lot safer

I went through there last week. Noticed the 60kph signs and one set of yellow cameras, seen no signs stating reinforcement or average speed limit. But recognised the cameras from average speed checks on UK motorways. Think it was the M3, must have been 15/20 miles of 50mph on button, in convoy, in all lanes, with constant remeinders of average speed, and yellow camera after yellow camera. Everyone doing 50mph.

Getting back to the M7 here, even when I slowed, I had Artics up my bumper, and overtaking. Ended up overtaking same further down the road when it went back to 120.

Special Circumstances

ABC101 wrote: »

The idea that the cameras are on trial does not stack up for me, averaging speed cameras is not a new technology, it is tried and proven elsewhere in the world, it already works and does not have to be set up on a trial basis to see if it works in Ireland.

"Never miss a genuine opportunity to contract the idiot relation of X to compile an unnecessary and expensive report on Y"

markpb

There's an amazing amount of group-think going on here. It's become an echo chamber with everyone backing up everyone elses assertion that a 60kph limit is somehow incredibly dangerous. These limits are well sign-posted, the limit falls from 120 to 100 to 80 and then 60 over a few kilometers. That's not dangerous unless you're a truly terrible driver.

If people decide they're not going to obey the limit and tailgate those who do, that is what is dangerous. Driving like that needs to be treated with the severity that it deserves which, IMHO, is far more than just 2 penalty points and a paltry fine.

Having driven through the roadworks at the limit several times, I don't believe it's as dangerous as people make out. When you slow down, traffic naturally bunches together so trucks and other vehicles behind you will naturally be closer to you than they normally would on the motorway. It doesn't mean they're tail-gating you or trying to push you off the road, I suspect that's mostly in peoples heads. The road is hardly quiet and we've yet to hear about any accidents. When the schools are back and traffic is heavier, speed will decrease and the chance of an accident will also decrease so if we haven't seen a plethora of accidents yet, I somehow don't think it's going to happen.

Mycroft H

Driven it a good few times in the last two weeks.

All of the times were mid afternoon and the vast majority of traffic were going at about 60km/h. The big camera signs were enough to make sure of that. Only noticed a few thicks trying to push through traffic.

Didn't notice anything particularly dangerous about it.

It's for a few km, your back up to 120km/h after that too.

One_Of_Shanks

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

The only way it's likely to change is if ye call Naas Gardai, Kildare Co Co and the NRA to express your concerns about it. As an update none of them followed-up this week but the 3 people I did speak to all said the limits weren't being enforced with points/fines.

If enough people call them though then maybe they'll get the hint and review it before a pile-up DOES happen when the schools go back/traffic gets heavier and the mornings/evenings get darker.

Well I did exactly this a few minutes ago but I'm none the wiser really.
First off Kildare Co Co told me that I should be ringing the NRA, so she put me through to the NRA.
Then the NRA told me that it's the Guards who would be the people to ring about enforcement but he did say that the works would continue for another 6 weeks approximately.
So then i rang Naas Guarda station and she said that it's Kildare Co Co that I should be ringing.

So basically I didn't get anywhere aside from finding out that its likely to remain the same for another 5 or 6 weeks which is not quite as bad as the end of october/early Nov date that had been mentioned elsewhere.

_Kaiser_

highdef wrote: »

Well fingers crossed that your theory is correct and that the results will show a large % of motorists are flouting traffic regulations and we get average speed cameras everywhere.

Yea because "speeding" is the cause of all problems on the roads :rolleyes:

There seem to be three schools of thought here.. those who drive appropriate to the conditions rather than just what it says on the sign (which can be too low OR too high), those who can't/won't drive at the posted limit when there's no reason not to - or who blindly follow the signs regardless - and don't see why everyone else shouldn't do the same, and yes there is a minority of assholes who tailgate, lane-weave and generally cause others aggravation, but no speed camera will catch those!

It's this last group that the second group are really complaining about, but the only way to deal with them is by AGS doing more than tax checks and doing people for being a little over the limit on a motorway/wide N-road.

ABC101

One_Of_Shanks wrote: »

Well I did exactly this a few minutes ago but I'm none the wiser really.
First off Kildare Co Co told me that I should be ringing the NRA, so she put me through to the NRA.
Then the NRA told me that it's the Guards who would be the people to ring about enforcement but he did say that the works would continue for another 6 weeks approximately.
So then i rang Naas Guarda station and she said that it's Kildare Co Co that I should be ringing.

So basically I didn't get anywhere aside from finding out that its likely to remain the same for another 5 or 6 weeks which is not quite as bad as the end of october/early Nov date that had been mentioned elsewhere.

That sums up the entire civil service of Ireland in a nutshell. Zero accountability, shirking responsibility and always somebody else's job.

Eventually when you do get the right department, you will find that the person who is responsible / knows about the issue, is out of the office / on holidays / won't be back until Monday or some other excuse.

A silo based and operated dept.

From reading the Kildare Co Co website, they should have the answers. At the very least they should know what is going on with the roads in their area.

Shint0

I have found now that when people are driving around the 80km/h mark the traffic seems to flow better which was actually Kaiser's suggestion here last week. Just an observation.

Charles Babbage

Traffic will flow well if everyone does the same speed. A lot of braking etc is caused by people acting the maggot and weaving and so on although slowpokes also cause problems.

These cameras are a reasonable idea, the failure is the imposition of a fixed speed limit regardless of what work is actually going on. This reflects laziness on the part of lawmakers to provide a basis for a more flexible limit which could then be applied by electronic signs.

ABC101

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

Yea because "speeding" is the cause of all problems on the roads :rolleyes:

There seem to be three schools of thought here.. those who drive appropriate to the conditions rather than just what it says on the sign (which can be too low OR too high), those who can't/won't drive at the posted limit when there's no reason not to and don't see why everyone else shouldn't do the same, and yes there is a minority of assholes who tailgate, lane-weave and generally cause others aggravation, but no speed camera will catch those!

It's this last group that the second group are really complaining about, but the only way to deal with them is by AGS doing more than tax checks and doing people for being a little over the limit on a motorway/wide N-road.

My school of thought is this...

1) If the vulture cameras are there as a deterrent to speeders so as to protect road workers then the cameras should be at the start and end of the 3 Km section of road works. Not a 400m section towards the end of the road works. For me the argument that the cameras are there to protect workers does not stand up.

2) The argument that this is a trial for averaging speed cameras does not stand up to scrutiny either. A.Speed cameras are not new, and anyway the M50 is full of averaging cameras which have been operating for years, how else are the time estimates for various junctions calculated and displayed on the electronic gantry signs?. Of course these cameras are not used for FCPN's, but they still calculate time over distance.

_Kaiser_

Charles Babbage wrote: »

Traffic will flow well if everyone does the same speed. A lot of braking etc is caused by people acting the maggot and weaving and so on although slowpokes also cause problems.

These cameras are a reasonable idea, the failure is the imposition of a fixed speed limit regardless of what work is actually going on. This reflects laziness on the part of lawmakers to provide a basis for a more flexible limit which could then be applied by electronic signs.

I think the legislation is there now under recent amendments? They have been testing/showing limits electronically on the gantry on the N7 inbound just before the M50 splits for a good while now, and I know there's been talk about variable limits on the M50 in recent times as well.

But you're right.. far easier/lazier to slap a blanket lowest limit regardless of conditions (traffic volume, weather/surface conditions, works active or not) than look at the situation properly

novarock

Anyone else noticing the number of speed camera signs popping up on Motorways in the last few weeks? One example is the M2 between Blanch and Ashbourne..

Clearlier

I've been living in the UK for a few years now and when done correctly I think that average speed cameras work pretty well. Typically over here the maximum speed is 50mph (80kmh) and it is very widely observed.

There are usually concrete barriers between the area where the work is being carried out and where vehicles drive but lanes are narrower than normal which is what I thought was the reason for the lower speed limit.

As someone else said heavy traffic tends to move more quickly at lower speeds if everyone is doing a constant speed and there aren't too many lane hoppers and I've tended to observe that too. The M25 and 6 (around Birmingham) have a variation on it where they have very frequent gantries with cameras (not average speed ones) and speed limits posted on each gantry. They vary the speed limit according to traffic levels to manage the flow. IMO it works reasonably well.

If Ireland are going to start introducing average speed cameras then we will have to have some kind of pilot phase to make sure that we know what we're doing. It does sound like the pilot could have been better executed though.

pippip

novarock wrote: »

Anyone else noticing the number of speed camera signs popping up on Motorways in the last few weeks? One example is the M2 between Blanch and Ashbourne..

Well gosafe did recently announce an expansion to where they were covering.

Veloce

Are there any other indications to say if penalties are being enforced (or not enforced) on this section of the M7?

novarock

I remember the announcement in May, but I've only spotted the cameras on the motorways in the last few weeks.. I wonder what the upper tolerance level will be ?