Vegan parents should be jailed.

Smondie

According to a bill being put before the Italian parliament forcing your child to be vegan is child abuse as it deprives children of thier nutritional needs and vegan parents should be subject to censure and possibly even jail time.


I think to intentially deprive children of a good steak because of your own beliefs is child abuse


http://www.thejournal.ie/vegan-diet-children-poll-2923955-Aug2016/

The thinking behind the bill is that such a diet isn’t sufficient for a child’s nutritional needs, after a number of high-profile cases in Italy in which children were taken into care after becoming malnourished.

failinis

I don't see a problem.

It not saying it is illegal to give your child a vegan diet.
Its any diet that does not meet the nutritional needs (be the child under-weight or over-weight) and is left malnourished.
Some Italian families have children on vegan diets who meet all the nutritional needs and are well nourished - no problem.

GingerLily

What is the wording of the bill? (In English)

Shint0

Nowhere in that article does it show that veganism or vegetarianism was a direct cause of the cases of malnutrition. It's a huge leap to make. Meat eaters can suffer from malnutrition too. How exactly are frozen chicken nuggets healthy which seems to be the staple part of the diet for lots of children? The issue is irresponsible parenting not providing an adequate healthy balanced diet meat-free or otherwise.

DEFTLEFTHAND

Give the child options and let them decide what they want to eat.

The dumbest one I heard was that stupid trend last year of 'vegancats'. A few very ill house cats later and I think cat owners worldwide have got the message.

The Backwards Man

GingerLily wrote: »

What is the wording of the bill? (In English)

What's a matter you, hey!
Gotta no respect
Whatta you tink you do?

It's Italian.

Smondie

Shint0 wrote: »

Nowhere in that article does it show that veganism or vegetarianism was a direct cause of the cases of malnutrition. It's a huge leap to make. Meat eaters can suffer from malnutrition too. How exactly are frozen chicken nuggets healthy which seems to be the staple part of the diet for lots of children? The issue is irresponsible parenting not providing an adequate healthy balanced diet meat-free or otherwise.

Infants and children consuming atypical diets: Vegetarianism and macrobiotics
Tanya Di Genova and Harvey Guyda, MD

....Because parents are the principal providers of what their infants eat, vegetarian parents often wean their children onto the family’s vegetarian diet. It is important to note that atypical diets are more likely to cause problems of malnutrition in children than in adults due to their greater nutrient requirements relative to body weight. Thus, without the appropriate care for these children, health issues may arise that could concern health care professionals.
Vegetarianism is a very broad category consisting of diets with varying degree of animal product consumption. This distinction is important because the more strictly vegetarianism is followed, the more difficult it becomes to guarantee an adequate diet for growing infants and children.
-
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2528709/
.

whisky_galore

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

Give the child options and let them decide what they want to eat.

A big hape of crisps, sweets and ice cream.

Fabb

Getting priorities right and putting the real criminals in jail.

Caoimhgh1n

There is nothing wrong with a vegan lifestyle. Some parents do not do it correctly, that is the problem. Of course, most people would much rather feed their child McDonalds and a bunch of other crap, and then bash vegans who are more often than not healthier.

eviltwin

My kids eat a mostly vegan diet. Both are healthy are well and in better shape than a lot of their peers. I don't force my children to be meat free but as the main cook in the house I am not going to make multiple meals according to everyone's taste. I cook and they eat what I cook, they like it. When their dad cooks he'll cook meat and they have the option to have it but most times they choose not to have it. They can have meat when we eat out of the home or at someones house. How exactly that is cruel and neglectful I'd like to know.

PaddyWilliams

People can eat these diets, yet still consume the proper amount of proteins, fats etc. Hardly an offence to do this, once they allow the children to have their own choice once they come of age and are not forced into it.

Smondie

An Italian baby raised on a vegan diet is hospitalized for severe malnutrition and removed from parents
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2016/07/11/italian-baby-fed-vegan-diet-hospitalized-for-malnutrition/

Vegan Breastfeeding Kills Baby
http://www.thehealthyhomeeconomist.com/baby-breastfed-by-vegan-mother-dies/

beach_walker

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

The dumbest one I heard was that stupid trend last year of 'vegancats'.

Remember the vegan bloodhound in Shirley Valentine?

failinis

Smondie wrote: »

An Italian baby raised on a vegan diet is hospitalized for severe malnutrition and removed from parents
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2016/07/11/italian-baby-fed-vegan-diet-hospitalized-for-malnutrition/

Vegan Breastfeeding Kills Baby
http://www.thehealthyhomeeconomist.com/baby-breastfed-by-vegan-mother-dies/

Yes, and you can see what I said above, some, Italian families can rear children healthily on vegan diets and have no problem with doctors/social services - and some can not such as your links.
I think its great that there is a proposal to introduce the law protecting children from any diet that is not nutritional enough to promote normal healthy growth.

deeks

eviltwin wrote: »

I don't force my children to be meat free but as the main cook in the house I am not going to make multiple meals according to everyone's taste.

So, in effect, you do force your children to be meat free when you cook.

LoLth

I think there is a confusion here between imposing the bad habits of the parents on children and imposing parental beliefs badly.

undernourishment through a vegan diet would be evidence of the latter imho and should not be assumed to be inherently bad through some leap of logic.

Junkyard Tom

What if your child is a little bunny rabbit?

eviltwin

deeks wrote: »

So, in effect, you do force your children to be meat free when you cook.

No I don't. There is nothing to stop them putting on a few sausages or getting a few bits of meat from the fridge. They aren't babies. They choose not to do that so I can only surmise that means they are happy with what they are given.

ancapailldorcha

I knew a vegan mum who cooks meat for her kids and husband. Just because someone is vegan doesn't mean they believe in forcing their beliefs on others. Someone who forces their pet to subsist on a vegan diet for ideological reasons is committing animal abuse though.

josip

Our son can strip a chicken drumstick to the bone in under a minute.
No qualms about eating either Larry the Lamb or Babe the Pig in his many forms.
Partial to anything bovine.
Devours salmon like a grizzly.
2 eggs for breakfast with yoghurt and cheese.
He's still around the 5th percentile by weight

m5ex9oqjawdg2i

Bullshít sensationalist headline, well done OP, you're on par with the daily mail or the sun, neither of which deserve to be capitalized.

Chuchote

More to the point to run municipal nutrition classes teaching vegans how to maintain a balanced, nourishing diet.
Of course, there are people who are immune to science. There was a series of cases in California where malnourished children were taken from their parents, fed up to health and returned to the parents, who put them back on the idiotic macrobiotic diet, and then after a few months the children had to be hospitalised again, etc.

kylith

Is it possible to raise a healthy child on a vegan diet? I'm sure it is. Is it orders of magnitude more difficult than raising a healthy child on an omnivorous diet? Yes, it is. It takes lots of planning and research.

I can see people here that I'm assuming are vegan or veggie immediately going for the 'blah, blah, kids eat McDonald's not healthy'. Well, well done for jumping to the opposite extreme, folks; one kind of clueless, stupid parenting for another (talking, of course, about insufficient plant-based diets).

A poor omnivorous diet is not good, but it is nowhere near as dangerous as a poor vegan diet. I would propose a compromise for vegans: that they raise their children vegetarian rather than vegan. Let them have calcium, vitamins, and protein from eggs, milk, butter, and cheese. They can choose whether or not to go full vegan themselves.

biko

I suppose the Italians should jail parents that only feed their kids chicken nuggets, chips and burgers too? If so half of all Irish and UK parent will go to jail too..

Of course you can raise a child on a vegan diet. And it probably beats the diet many of us had growing up.

Your Face

I like Italy and intend on holidaying there again in the future.

kylith

biko wrote: »

I suppose the Italians should jail parents that only feed their kids chicken nuggets, chips and burgers too? If so half of all Irish and UK parent will go to jail too..

If they were dying of malnutrition from it they probably would.

Being a bit fat is a hell of a lot easier to get over than hypocalcemia, nerve problems, and a compromised immune system, or malnutrition.

eviltwin

kylith wrote: »

A poor omnivorous diet is not good, but it is nowhere near as dangerous as a poor vegan diet. I would propose a compromise for vegans: that they raise their children vegetarian rather than vegan. Let them have calcium, vitamins, and protein from eggs, milk, butter, and cheese. They can choose whether or not to go full vegan themselves.

Vegans can eat milk, butter and cheese, just vegan versions that are just as good, if not better than their dairy counterparts.

MeatTwoVeg

eviltwin wrote:

Vegans can eat milk, butter and cheese, just vegan versions that are just as good, if not better than their dairy counterparts.

Like Soya milk?
Urgh, that stuff is vile.

Jawgap

Caoimhgh1n wrote: »

There is nothing wrong with a vegan lifestyle. Some parents do not do it correctly, that is the problem. Of course, most people would much rather feed their child McDonalds and a bunch of other crap, and then bash vegans who are more often than not healthier.

Speaking as a parent of two strapping lads, I'd much rather feed myself the McDonald's and give them the salad from the Big Mac - it's cheaper!

As a kid one of my best friends was a put upon veggie - his mother was into all that hippy-dippy stuff. I think he only used to hang around with me because my mother would invite him to stay for tea and he could eat all the 'rubbish' he couldn't get at home - even on Christmas Day he'd be round to our place like a shot for a bit of turkey.....the option in his place was nut roast......

......I had tea in his place a few times - always came home starving

Chuchote

Jawgap wrote: »

Speaking as a parent of two strapping lads, I'd much rather feed myself the McDonald's and give them the salad from the Big Mac - it's cheaper!

As a kid one of my best friends was a put upon veggie - his mother was into all that hippy-dippy stuff. I think he only used to hang around with me because my mother would invite him to stay for tea and he could eat all the 'rubbish' he couldn't get at home - even on Christmas Day he'd be round to our place like a shot for a bit of turkey.....the option in his place was nut roast......

......I had tea in his place a few times - always came home starving

Mm. But one of my first veggie friends was a strapping lad, fifth-generation vegetarian.

Shint0

MeatTwoVeg wrote: »

Like Soya milk?
Urgh, that stuff is vile.

Says MeatTwoVeg
There are alternatives such as almond milk which is an excellent source of protein, magnesium and calcium.

It's perfectly possible to have a balanced nutritional diet being vegan or vegetarian. Large parts of India has been predominantly vegetarian with some religions such as Jainism being more srtict and excluding eggs, onions and garlic. Hindu and strict Jain vegetarians can be obsessive about food and mothers providing adequate homecooked meals all freshly prepared from scratch with no processed foods. Cases of malnutrition are due to poverty and not lack of knowledge.

From time to time I have had to take iron tablets due to heavy menstrual cycles. When I told my GP I was becoming vegetarian he almost laughed at me in disbelief and said a lot of vegetarians he knows subsist on bread and cheese.

Since becoming vegetarian I have not had to go on iron tablets anymore than when I was a meat eater; I am actually more conscious about my diet, all fresh foods from scratch and overall more healthy. It might be sligthly more inconvenient at times as there is more planning involved and can be less options when eating out. I was already aware of that but I made an informed decision and wouldn't go back to eating meat now.

The issue is not veganism or vegetarianism. It's about adjusting your lifestlyle, doing your research and doing it properly, not in a half hearted way just like making any other adjustment in your lifestyle.

kylith

eviltwin wrote: »

Vegans can eat milk, butter and cheese, just vegan versions that are just as good, if not better than their dairy counterparts.

Apart from being lower in calcium, vitamins, and minerals, you mean.

How exactly do you reckon it's better?

Dravokivich

The Backwards Man wrote: »

What's a matter you, hey!
Gotta no respect
Whatta you tink you do?

It's Italian.

I wanna a fok on a the table

osarusan

Bad diets harm people, good diets don't.

Both are possible with vegan diets, vegetarian diets, or any other kind of diet.

OldNotWIse

I'd rather give my child a nice hearty stew made with root veg and pulses than a happy meal or some shít filled crispy pancakes masquerading as food. I am vegetarian however when I do have children, they will be meat eaters - not excessive cheap meat however. Once or twice a week organic meat and fish that hasn't been farmed or pumped with antibiotics to accelerate growth. I'll inform them without brainwashing them of the cruelty of the meat industry and then when they are old enough they can make their own minds up. Pushing your views will likely just send them the other way.

Duggy747

Shint0 wrote: »

The issue is not veganism or vegetarianism. It's about adjusting your lifestlyle, doing your research and doing it properly, not in a half hearted way just like making any other adjustment in your lifestyle.

The wife went vegetarian about 2 years back and she put in the work into what she needed to keep her intake up on protein, vitamins, and all that jazz. It was a fair amount of work for her initially but her diet is on point now as she knows what works and what doesn't work for her. But she had to dig through an awful amount of bullshít to get the right information.

Her research showed obvious contsraints in that she could no longer eat certain things like sweets or desserts that had animal byproducts in them. Obvious stuff but something funnily enough a lot of vegetarians we came across didn't think about as they munched on marshmallows or jellies :pac:

The problem with the research is that there's an awful amount of seriously bad science and conflicting facts out there based on people's own biases which confuses people when starting a veggie / vegan diet. It's a market covered in fads and people peddling products / books so some people go for the quick-fixes instead of putting in the time and effort to look up what foods actually work for them personally.

Her diet is great for me because when I take a break from meat I get to gobble some of the lovely dishes she makes

meeeeh

It's harder to get the needed nutrients on alternative diets. Trying to outlaw vegan diet for children is ridiculous and unworkable. State can't interfere into everything. I'm too lazy to check but I think this is opposition bill and probably less likely to pass.

That being said I think there should be mandatory developmental checks with avoidance punishes similarly as not sending kids to school. If worrying signs are discovered parents should be supervised forced to feed kids properly and in cases of gross neglect kids taken of them and in certain cases parents imprisoned. Especially when child gets seriously sick or dies. I know a horrific case of 10 years old girl who's body was too malnourished to fight pneumonia caused by malnutrition. Parents were feeding her vegan macrobiotic diet and were imprisoned but sometimes you do wonder why nothing was done earlier.

Turtle_

Caoimhgh1n wrote: »

There is nothing wrong with a vegan lifestyle.

Can we put this myth to bed? Without supplements it is impossible to meet nutritional needs from a vegan diet. B12 being the big, glaringly obvious one. Can only get it from animal products or supplements. A vegan diet, unsupplemented, is incomplete. Plenty of studies out there showing chronic B12 deficiency among vegans at much higher rates than in the general population.

biko wrote: »

I suppose the Italians should jail parents that only feed their kids chicken nuggets, chips and burgers too? If so half of all Irish and UK parent will go to jail too..

Of course you can raise a child on a vegan diet. And it probably beats the diet many of us had growing up.

Whilst the welfare classes may feed rubbish to their kids, most parents feed their kids a fairly balanced diet. And it's REALLY easy to if you can cook and are willing to use animal products.

Vegan and vegetarian parents aren't inherently a problem, but any parents who refuse to provide a diet that is complete without the need to resort to supplements are a problem. And vegan parents who refuse to allow their children to consume animal products ARE actively harming their children. The kids NEED the nutrition in them. As someone earlier on said, a reasonable compromise for vegan parents is to have the kids on a vegetarian diet.

A person, free from medical conditions requiring additional nutrition or preventing proper nutrient absorption, should be able to meet their nutritional needs from their diet. Enforcing a vegan diet on children means that the nutritional needs of the child cannot be met without supplements.. So why have a child on a diet that is inherently inadequate?

Shint0

Duggy747 wrote: »

Her research showed obvious contsraints in that she could no longer eat certain things like sweets or desserts that had animal byproducts in them. Obvious stuff but something funnily enough a lot of vegetarians we came across didn't think about as they munched on marshmallows or jellies :pac:

The problem with the research is that there's an awful amount of seriously bad science and conflicting facts out there based on people's own biases which confuses people when starting a veggie / vegan diet.

For sure that is a real issue and sacrifices have to be made sometimes in the name of principles or whatever the rationale is for becoming vegan/vegetarian or some other adjustment to lifestyle.

If you opt not for the convenience route and cook wholesome, fresh, non-processed foods I find you actually have less of a desire or craving for sweet foods but still getting complex carbohydrates as needed.

I'm married to someone who is vegetarian by birth/religion so in that sense the balanced nutritious healthy vegetarian diet is easier as it's already been incorporated into the everyday eating habits without having to do too much research.

For someone starting from scratch independently without any other input or assistance from others already vegetarian it definitely does take time to get it right but it is possible.

Checking food labels can be a headache initially but after time you can easily identify what products are suitable or not. It just becomes a matter of habit. For me it is hardly even an issue now as the majority of what I eat is fresh produce with practically no processed foods.

You are right, though, it's so easy to make vegetarian food delicious which many people don't realise and it's still possible to have some meat style texture if people want that sensation through cheeses/paneer, lentils, nuts and varieties of mushrooms.

kylith

OldNotWIse wrote: »

I'd rather give my child a nice hearty stew made with root veg and pulses than a happy meal or some shít filled crispy pancakes masquerading as food.

Yeah, well I'd rather give my child a nice hearty stew made with root veg and pulses and stewing steak than a happy meal or some shít filled crispy pancakes.

Why, in these threads, does it often seem like some non-meat eaters firmly believe that being omnivorous necessitates the consumption of large amounts of processed meat? I, like many people, get mine from a craft butcher, not Birdseye bag.

Caoimhgh1n

kylith wrote: »

Yeah, well I'd rather give my child a nice hearty stew made with root veg and pulses and stewing steak than a happy meal or some shít filled crispy pancakes.

Why, in these threads, does it often seem like some non-meat eaters firmly believe that being omnivorous necessitates the consumption of large amounts of processed meat? I, like many people, get mine from a craft butcher, not Birdseye bag.

The studies are there to show how unhealthy meat is and how it is linked to cancer, but people still insist on how their butcher's or free range meat is great and healthy. That is still far from the truth.

Shint0

kylith wrote: »

Why, in these threads, does it often seem like some non-meat eaters firmly believe that being omnivorous necessitates the consumption of large amounts of processed meat? I, like many people, get mine from a craft butcher, not Birdseye bag.

While you might not eat processed meat a lot of meat eaters do and often processed or less wholesomely produced or reared meat products can be cheaper on the pocket for some people or more convenient just to throw in an oven from frozen. So it can be due to time constraints as well as affordability or just from habit.

Wigglepuppy

Caoimhgh1n wrote: »

There is nothing wrong with a vegan lifestyle. Some parents do not do it correctly, that is the problem. Of course, most people would much rather feed their child McDonalds and a bunch of other crap, and then bash vegans who are more often than not healthier.

"Most" people would rather go to the extreme of feeding their child McDonalds and other junk food than vegan food when there is a host of other healthy options in between?

Doubt it.

Caoimhgh1n

Wigglepuppy wrote: »

"Most" people would rather go to the extreme of feeding their child McDonalds and other junk food than vegan food when there is a host of other healthy options in between?

Doubt it.

What are the other healthy options, exactly?

Widdershins

Veganism when done thoughtfully can be nutritionally adequate . It's just basically no processed foods. It's true that plenty of omnivore families have rubbish diets.

Smondie

Caoimhgh1n wrote: »

What are the other healthy options, exactly?

A good steak


I've eaten them my whole life and don't have cancer.

Lux23

Anyone who feeds their child so inadequately that they end up malnourished should be at the very least be subject to some sort of intervention by the authorities. Regardless of whether it is the result ideological or pure lazy/ignorant parenting.

MeatTwoVeg

Caoimhgh1n wrote:

The studies are there to show how unhealthy meat is and how it is linked to cancer, but people still insist on how their butcher's or free range meat is great and healthy. That is still far from the truth.

The vegans are still going to die though same as the omnivores.
I'd rather have eaten a few steaks in my life than get an extra few years eating tofu.

Caoimhgh1n

Smondie wrote: »

A good steak


I've eaten them my whole life and don't have cancer.

Some people smoke for their whole life and don't have cancer, so smoking is obviously healthy too.

Just because you don't have cancer (presumably) doesn't mean meat doesn't increase your risks.

I'd be concerned at a probable lack of LCPs in the diet, particularly DHA and AA omega 6 and 3 FA's. A deficiency of LCPs could compromise cognitive development if lacking in a young kids or a pregnant mothers diet, and plant sources being very inferior. Supplementation would be very important in a vegan or strict vege diet.

Humans evolved eating meat and fish, it'd be hard to compensate for the missing animal input.

Nothing is either McDonalds or strict vege/vegan though, I have to laugh at the assumption that if it's not one it's the other.