Should Public Prayers Be Allowed on Planes?

magicbastarder

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Generally you'll find it's Religion X taking offence at Religion Y, not atheists.

not the point i was making. the person taking offence - i.e. choosing to do so - is not the person doing the praying. the person taking offence, and in this hypothetical situation, causing aggro, is the one to blame.

magicbastarder

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Cue furious hail marys all around us and the rosary beads being whipped out :pac: about fifteen minutes later we landed smoothly. All in a day's work for a flight crew but the god squad thought they were going to meet their maker slightly early :pac:

clearly for the god squad, their prayers were answered!

Fleawuss

magicbastarder wrote: »

not the point i was making. the person taking offence - i.e. choosing to do so - is not the person doing the praying. the person taking offence, and in this hypothetical situation, causing aggro, is the one to blame.

In the real world on a plane you avoid things getting so far as the Sunnis screaming at the rejectionists that their prayers are blasphemous and the other version of god is correct. Public space isn't your synagogue, mosque, ashram, church, temple, shrine, whatever I have forgotten. Public space needs to be neutral ground.

magicbastarder

Fleawuss wrote: »

Public space needs to be neutral ground.

define 'neutral'. in this thread it seems to be 'ban it if i don't like it', which is not what i'd define as neutral.
in religious terms, neutral/secular usually means 'no advantage given to (any) religion'. this does not meet that definition.

magicbastarder

i mean, it's clearly a major issue, religious riots on airplanes, that we're looking at considering banning people from praying out loud.

Fleawuss

magicbastarder wrote: »

define 'neutral'. in this thread it seems to be 'ban it if i don't like it', which is not what i'd define as neutral.
in religious terms, neutral/secular usually means 'no advantage given to (any) religion'. this does not meet that definition.

LOL.
OED: Not supporting or helping either side in a conflict, impartial.

I note that you have immediately offered your own definition of what you think neutral means in this thread, your definition of what neutral means in "religious terms" (I never heard that before, unusual).

A very small list of religions:
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Fleawuss

magicbastarder wrote: »

i mean, it's clearly a major issue, religious riots on airplanes, that we're looking at considering banning people from praying out loud.

You don't want a tragedy so better to head the thing off: just ban all demonstrations by atheists, humanists, BLM, etc. ( you really don't want the list again do you?) so there's peace. Neutral ground, so to speak, even though it's in the air.

Thoie

If you are doing anything on public transport that I can hear from 3 or 4 rows away (or further), you need to STFU. I don't care if you're praying, singing, having sex, playing a game or talking in a loud nasally whine. Particularly on something like a plane, where being able to hear what the flight crew are saying might be important (though 99% of the time they're just trying to sell you something). Babies under 18 months are about the only ones exempt, purely on the basis that they don't know what's happening, but don't bring their loudest toys along.

I would think it reasonable that the crew could ask you to quieten down. Ideally they'd have some kind of ejector seat set up, but I'm sure someone would probably complain.

Giacomo McGubbin

Thoie wrote: »

If you are doing anything on public transport that I can hear from 3 or 4 rows away (or further), you need to STFU. I don't care if you're praying, singing, having sex, playing a game or talking in a loud nasally whine. Particularly on something like a plane, where being able to hear what the flight crew are saying might be important (though 99% of the time they're just trying to sell you something). Babies under 18 months are about the only ones exempt, purely on the basis that they don't know what's happening, but don't bring their loudest toys along.

I would think it reasonable that the crew could ask you to quieten down. Ideally they'd have some kind of ejector seat set up, but I'm sure someone would probably complain.

I'm pretty sure you would

magicbastarder

Thoie wrote: »

I would think it reasonable that the crew could ask you to quieten down. Ideally they'd have some kind of ejector seat set up, but I'm sure someone would probably complain.

Exactly. The crew have every power to ask you to stop doing whatever you're doing if it's causing a problem or being antisocial. There's no need for an explicit ban on prayer.

Hotblack Desiato

magicbastarder wrote: »

not the point i was making. the person taking offence - i.e. choosing to do so - is not the person doing the praying. the person taking offence, and in this hypothetical situation, causing aggro, is the one to blame.

The problem isn't prayer it's making noise and causing an obstruction. I don't think any poster here is objecting on the grounds that it's prayer, they're objecting on the grounds it's annoying.

My point in an eariler post was religion often gets a free pass in relation to activities which would not be allowed if they were non-religious - e.g. RTE don't give Atheist Ireland a free minute every day on TV to tell everyone that there's no god, but the catholic church gets to promote itself every day. Atheists don't build large temples to no god and then ring bells early in the morning (or even at night) to annoy people and remind them about how there isn't any god. Atheists didn't seize control of 96% of schools to promote the message of no-godism to kids... etc.

Any unacceptable activity (such as being annoying on a plane) shouldn't be tolerated simply because that activity is claimed to be religious.

magicbastarder wrote: »

clearly for the god squad, their prayers were answered!

You could just as validly claim that it was our lack of prayer to no god which determined the outcome

silverharp

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

The problem isn't prayer it's making noise and causing an obstruction. I don't think any poster here is objecting on the grounds that it's prayer, they're objecting on the grounds it's annoying.

My point in an eariler post was religion often gets a free pass in relation to activities which would not be allowed if they were non-religious - e.g. RTE don't give Atheist Ireland a free minute every day on TV to tell everyone that there's no god, but the catholic church gets to promote itself every day. Atheists don't build large temples to no god and then ring bells early in the morning (or even at night) to annoy people and remind them about how there isn't any god. Atheists didn't seize control of 96% of schools to promote the message of no-godism to kids... etc.

Any unacceptable activity (such as being annoying on a plane) shouldn't be tolerated simply because that activity is claimed to be religious.

yep it seems like staff dont have the confidence to enforce general rules. try recite your favourite poetry and you will be closed down quickly , do the religious equivalent and nobody is quite sure what to do

Michael OBrien

Surely airplanes are PRIVATE property, not public spaces. Just because public use it does not make it PUBLIC spaces. In private areas one can make any rule they want as long as it is not discriminatory under the law relating to that service or space.
Loud prayer in a seat would be seen as a disturbance to others, especially if others are sleeping or children are involved. Active blocking the isles would be stopped immediately as it prevents the staff and passengers free movement.
Since the passengers are captive audiences, unlike in a park or street, often for hours, it would be completely unfair to allow loud praying to occur. Quite praying in your seat, at the same volume of a quite conversation, is fine. This does not affect free speech or inhibit religion, as none of these are stopped, only the volume of the prayers.
As far as matches or parties goes, staff should be able to shut down such actions if they are also loud and/or distruptive too.

Anyone objecting to this does not understand free speech or private property or the rights of others. You cannot come into a library and start screaming prayers while you block the exits either. Or enter a cafe and block the door to force people to listen to you pray.

Finally prayer is often thinly disguised extremely offensive hate speech, certainly if someone decides to shout it in a confined space with a wide mix of other people within earshot. This would result in a rise of risk to the airplane as others get offended. Putting everyone at risk. Some preachers actively seek to be attacked and make a living off out of court settlements from offended passerbys they harass.
Compare it to a neo-nazi group screaming aryan songs looking to start trouble.

silverharp

Michael OBrien wrote: »

Surely airplanes are PRIVATE property, not public spaces.

I'd say most people would accept that, the issue seems to be whether a company ought to specifically state that "public" prayer is not acceptable ? Ive no issue of it being mentioned in a list to clarify what the company means by causing a problem on a plane. Plenty of companies have long and very specific T&C's about what you can and cannot do.

Thoie

silverharp wrote: »

I'd say most people would accept that, the issue seems to be whether a company ought to specifically state that "public" prayer is not acceptable ? Ive no issue of it being mentioned in a list to clarify what the company means by causing a problem on a plane. Plenty of companies have long and very specific T&C's about what you can and cannot do.

I wouldn't suggest that there is a specific statement against prayer of any kind, just a blanket statement of "excessive noise of any kind is not permitted, be that singing, speech or from any device".

magicbastarder

Michael OBrien wrote: »

Surely airplanes are PRIVATE property, not public spaces. Just because public use it does not make it PUBLIC spaces. In private areas one can make any rule they want as long as it is not discriminatory under the law relating to that service or space.

your caveat at the end is the important bit.
an airplane is not a private space in the same way that your living room is, for example. it's a privately owned space whose very existence depends on allowing paying members of the public into it, and is thus subject to laws which don't apply in strictly private spaces.

Thoie

magicbastarder wrote: »

your caveat at the end is the important bit.
an airplane is not a private space in the same way that your living room is, for example. it's a privately owned space whose very existence depends on allowing paying members of the public into it, and is thus subject to laws which don't apply in strictly private spaces.

If you only ban praying, then you're discriminating on the grounds of religion. If you have a blanket rule of "sit down and STFU" that covers everything, then you're hardly being discriminatory?

magicbastarder

the crew are already able to tell people who are being disruptive to cram it; it's not like any new laws or rules are required.

Chromosphere

I'm not at all religious (actually an atheist) and I strongly believe in freedom of expression.

This is political correctness gone mad!

The issue here is that someone thinks that the fact the Jewish guy is paying is offensive to a Muslim guy on the flight. That's a ridiculous standpoint and it's also mind reading. Maybe the Muslim guy just thought that the other guy was blocking the aisle or thought it was totally over the top?

If the Muslim guy had a problem with someone being Jewish he would either a biggot or has a political issue with the State of Israel but can't seem to distinguish between Israeli Government foreign policy and a Canadian airline passenger who is Jewish.

You can't just create an environment where everyone's going around freaked out in case they upset hypothetical random Narrow-minded bigots.

If someone has a ritual that maybe keeps them from panicking on a flight, that's their thing. Just let them do what they need to do. As long as it doesn't involve hugely disruptive or dangerous behaviour, does anyone care?!

magicbastarder

Chromosphere wrote: »

This is political correctness gone mad!

while i agree with you that it's a non-starter of an idea, i would argue it's the opposite of political correctness.

silverharp

magicbastarder wrote: »

your caveat at the end is the important bit.
an airplane is not a private space in the same way that your living room is, for example. it's a privately owned space whose very existence depends on allowing paying members of the public into it, and is thus subject to laws which don't apply in strictly private spaces.

I think people get what a private space is depending on the situation, you tend not to have freedom of speech, a restaurant could kick you out if you don't wear a tie if its in their conditions and an airline could restrain you if you were drunk etc.
you have no more right to publicly pray on a plane anymore then you would have to start singing in a library.

magicbastarder

Michael OBrien wrote: »

Finally prayer is often thinly disguised extremely offensive hate speech

getting back to this - examples?
you may not like prayer, but saying it's 'often offensive hate speech' requires a little more explanation.

magicbastarder

silverharp wrote: »

you have no more right to publicly pray on a plane anymore then you would have to start singing in a library.

everyone knows that libraries are quiet spaces. making noise in a library is generally frowned on for functional reasons. i fail to see any sense in your linking of the two activities.

Drumpot

I wish people whining about "that thing you do that I don't like but choose to let it offend/annoy me" was banned.

If people focused more on being decent to others and their own behaviour instead of bitching about other peoples subjectively pereceived ignorance, this world would be much less intolerant.

silverharp

magicbastarder wrote: »

everyone knows that libraries are quiet spaces. making noise in a library is generally frowned on for functional reasons. i fail to see any sense in your linking of the two activities.

a plane is an enclosed space where you are a "captive", one recognises that there is going to be chatter , babies crying etc. But I wouldn't expect to be subject to someone's aerobics routine , poetry recital , an impromptu mass or other religious display outside of something reasonably quiet and sitting down.

Stealthfins

It's like saying anyone who supports Kilkenny shouldn't be allowed in Waterford with a Kilkenny Jersey.

The op shows us that some Atheists can be as intolerant as some religious people.

Michael OBrien

magicbastarder wrote: »

your caveat at the end is the important bit.
an airplane is not a private space in the same way that your living room is, for example. it's a privately owned space whose very existence depends on allowing paying members of the public into it, and is thus subject to laws which don't apply in strictly private spaces.

The issue does not ban people or even private prayer. Just the volume that the prayer is being expressed in, or disruptive behaviour that may be linked with prayer (prayer mats, washing body parts in public).

For me, if you remove the religious element of the act and view it JUST as an activity in that space, is it a problem. If it is, then stop it. If it is not a problem, allow it. Religion does not get a special exemption.

silverharp

Stealthfins wrote: »

It's like saying anyone who supports Kilkenny shouldn't be allowed in Waterford with a Kilkenny Jersey.

The op shows us that some Atheists can be as intolerant as some religious people.

I think you are building a fine strawman there. Religious people tended to use the force of the state to enforce their lack of tolerance. suggesting that airlines might compete on this where some might allow it and some night not is far more tolerant.

Michael OBrien

magicbastarder wrote: »

getting back to this - examples?
you may not like prayer, but saying it's 'often offensive hate speech' requires a little more explanation.

Prayer involves lots of claims about their god/subject of prayer and their believers, usually exclusionary claims, often with punishments or condemnations mixed into it directly or indirectly.
I find the mentality often abusive (to oneself and others), discriminatory, morally questionable and sometimes perverse.
I am sure some prayers are innocuous enough, but believers are often oblivious to how awful their religion actually is, and their prayers express that mentality with blissful ignorance to others.

magicbastarder

i'm still struggling to understand why this is not being debated as 'excessively noisy talk on airplanes' should be banned instead of 'excessively noisy prayer should be banned'.
i don't see why there's so much focus on prayer. i've never been on any form of shared or public transport where people prayed out loud in unison. i've been on public transport where there was singing/chanting, and i have never heard any clamour to specifically ban that. as discussed, on airplanes, the staff are auhorised to clamp down on any antisocial or disruptive behaviour.

this talk of banning prayer is a solution in search of a problem.