Not another Immigrant thread!

Slideways

So, I don't live in Ireland anymore. I was home a few weeks ago and the Sligo Champion was on the table. While waiting for the mammy to knock me up a rasher sambo I was leafing through it and as was tradition I checked the court pages.

Literally, the majority of offences (drink driving, no insurance, mobile phone, petty theft) were from non-national names. Of course our very own ethnic minority featured too. Now maybe these were the Berzins and the Wisniewskis from out Ballintrillick way but I have my doubts..

As an immigrant myself I have no problem with people coming to another country for a better lifestyle or opportunity. However, if I broke the law here I would expect to be given my marching orders and rightly so.

Should these people be deported once they have been convicted on more than one occasion say in a period of 5 years. Anyone can have a blip and do something silly but I'm of the opinion if a suspended sentence or an actual prison term is imposed than the boot should be introduced to the offenders arse and sent back to their native land.

Thoughts?

MyPeopleDrankTheSoup

EU or outside? If EU names then they can't be deported. anyway, inb4 20 page thread before the lock, same few usernames posting, etc etc

Ruu

Absolutely they should be deported if they can't behave. It is a privilege to get another chance at a better life and the responsibility is yours alone to make it work. There are too many cases to mention where thuggish behaviour is tolerated where it really should be dealt with.

DEFTLEFTHAND

You're very right they should be given the boot. I would expect the same if I committed a crime somewhere in Eastern Europe.

The thing which really gets my goat is illegal immigration. We have 50,000 Irish illegal immigrants residing in the USA at the moment. No amnesty should be given to these people, they the broke law and did not follow the rules. A period of 6 months in detention followed by Deportation back to Ireland should be the order of the day for these people.

Esel

Slideways wrote: »

Thoughts?

Fup off back to yisser own (new) country. Make yisser own rasher sangwitches.

Speedwell

I'm an immigrant to Ireland, born in America, married to an Irish citizen. I wouldn't have a fecking clue what an "American" name is, and if you held a gun to my head and forced me to pretend to write such a list it would probably include British, French, Spanish, and German names, along with some native names translated into their English, French, or Spanish equivalents. My maiden name would not be on the list because immigration has been something of a family hobby for centuries. My immigrant father was born in Hungary to a Jewish family that was at least partially Turkish and Romanian (that's Hungarian border history for you); my mother was born in the US to an immigrant Italian father from Rome (who reportedly left a first wife and family behind with the permanently unfulfilled promise to send for them later) and an immigrant Jewish mother whose family was prominent in religion and the arts in the Minsk area of Belarus. My brother's wife casually refers to herself as a "wetback" for laughs; she was literally carried through the river from Mexico to Texas when she was a tiny baby, illegally of course, not that she had any choice in the matter (she's a US citizen now).

If you applied the immigration laws as they exist as of today in the various countries involved, every member of my family who ever immigrated anywhere in the past would be "illegals", except for me, and they were in the process of changing a law in Ireland that could have made my status questionable if I had entered the country six months later (it probably doesn't apply to me, but I'm not a lawyer). So you can understand if I think that immigration legality and illegality are basically as relevant and valid as whether a half-orc is allowed to wear plate-mail armor according to the most recently published Dungeons and Dragons rulebook. Yeah, yeah, "national sovereignty" and all that, and naturally anyone setting out to deliberately harm people is a criminal, but the vast majority of immigrants are people with the gumption to get off their holes and try to find a place to live and work that is better than where they came from. Deporting them back to their home country doesn't solve the problem, it just makes it someone else's problem. And what, after all, are we in Ireland to do with the Irish who get deported from wherever they are because of some issue that could be more usefully dealt with in the country in which it occurred?

Speedwell

Speedwell wrote: »

So you can understand if I think that immigration legality and illegality are basically as relevant and valid as whether a half-orc is allowed to wear plate-mail armor according to the most recently published Dungeons and Dragons rulebook.

So you would exclude immigration laws themselves from "if they break the law, throw them out"?

Speedwell

Deleted User wrote: »

So you would exclude immigration laws themselves from "if they break the law, throw them out"?

I think open borders is a good ideal to strive toward, in principle if not in practice. I know that quite a lot would have to change. But the idea that someone can be essentially imprisoned in a place for no better reason than that they happened to be born in a particular location just seems fundamentally unjust and primitive.

Mena

Ruu wrote: »

Absolutely they should be deported if they can't behave. It is a privilege to get another chance at a better life and the responsibility is yours alone to make it work.

I find this mentality extremely interesting. Perhaps I'm sidetracking here but isn't it arrogant to assume that every immigrant comes to Ireland for a better life? Like Ireland's some nirvana of sorts. Or are you thinking asylum seeker?

I immigrated to Ireland 17 years ago and live there for 16 years. I came because my company needed my expertise and I saw opportunity for development. I got with it crappy weather, badly constructed houses, poor public service and excessive taxes.

We did stay and eventually made it our home, becoming citizens after falling deeply in love with the country and people but to assume immigrants are poor destitute oul souls seeking the gold at the end of the rainbow in every case is arrogant.

This all being said, I do agree with the sentiment that when hosted in a foreign country, be you a poor asylum seeker or immigrating to take the role of CEO of some company, you have a responsibility to behave and play your part. I'd be in favour of (within strict rules) of deporting re-offending criminals that are not Irish nationals. The practicalities of this, however, are complex with the way people establish themselves and build lives wherever they are, families, homes and the like.

Jawgap

Speedwell wrote: »

I'm an immigrant to Ireland, born in America, married to an Irish citizen. I wouldn't have a fecking clue what an "American" name is.....

Brad, Scott, Shannon etc

Chuchote

Mena wrote: »

I immigrated to Ireland 17 years ago and live there for 16 years. I came because my company needed my expertise and I saw opportunity for development. I got with it crappy weather, badly constructed houses, poor public service and excessive taxes.

Curious: how are the houses better constructed and the taxes less excessive where you come from, Mena?

Interesting piece about the court interpreters:

http://www.independent.ie/world-news/war-on-terror/lone-wolves-are-groomed-by-hate-preachers-34925832.html

Figures for interpreter services in the Irish Courts Service show that 7,490 foreign nationals with little or no English appeared in front of a judge last year. On only 118 occasions did the courts need Arabic language assistance. It's an indication of what is already known; that Ireland's Muslim community, possibly 80,000 to 100,000 strong, is probably the most law-abiding section of our population.
The Mandarin-speaking population are equally respectful of the law, with only 251 Chinese interpreters' services retained by the courts… African languages interpretation services are also rarely needed.
About 90pc of the interpreter services are for Eastern European languages

kneemos

Chuchote wrote: »

Curious: how are the houses better constructed and the taxes less excessive where you come from, Mena?

Interesting piece about the court interpreters:

http://www.independent.ie/world-news/war-on-terror/lone-wolves-are-groomed-by-hate-preachers-34925832.html

It's usually minor stuff in fairness,no insurance,drunk and disorderly kind of thing.
The real headbangers mostly headed home when the bubble burst.

Mena

Chuchote wrote: »

Mena wrote: »

I immigrated to Ireland 17 years ago and live there for 16 years. I came because my company needed my expertise and I saw opportunity for development. I got with it crappy weather, badly constructed houses, poor public service and excessive taxes.

Curious: how are the houses better constructed and the taxes less excessive where you come from, Mena?

They were made of bricks and had proper insulation, and were standalone units as opposed to semi-d's but I'm being picky there you have to admit the housing boom brought out all the scrotes who thought they they could build and the quality nose dived.

As for taxes we paid around 30% but this was nigh on 18 years ago. Though now I'm paying almost over 52% in the Netherlands so i do miss my irish taxes

snubbleste

Independent wrote:

Figures for interpreter services in the Irish Courts Service show that 7,490 foreign nationals with little or no English appeared in front of a judge last year. On only 118 occasions did the courts need Arabic language assistance. It's an indication of what is already known; that Ireland's Muslim community, possibly 80,000 to 100,000 strong, is probably the most law-abiding section of our population.
The Mandarin-speaking population are equally respectful of the law, with only 251 Chinese interpreters' services retained by the courts… African languages interpretation services are also rarely needed.
About 90pc of the interpreter services are for Eastern European languages
http://www.independent.ie/world-news/war-on-terror/lone-wolves-are-groomed-by-hate-preachers-34925832.html

What generalist nonsense. Equating Muslims to being Arabic speakers only and also not being able to understand/speak English.

pickarooney

Only about 20% of Muslims speak Arabic as a first language.

Mongfinder General

Immigration does have an impact on a country's ability to provide services to its denizens depending on the scale of migration. In an ideal world I'd like to see passports taken off the smug arseholes who do nothing but criticize Ireland once they leave for " a better life" elsewhere and people who want to work and live here given the opportunity to integrate but that is never going to happen.

I think maybe we should start by giving out proper sentences to our home grown & foreign criminals.
You can't say, foreigners out because they committed a crime but yet allow Irish to rake up 70 & 80 previous convictions.

A bit racist.

jacksie66

This post has been deleted.

Chuchote

Mena wrote: »

They were made of bricks and had proper insulation, and were standalone units as opposed to semi-d's but I'm being picky there you have to admit the housing boom brought out all the scrotes who thought they they could build and the quality nose dived.

As for taxes we paid around 30% but this was nigh on 18 years ago. Though now I'm paying almost over 52% in the Netherlands so i do miss my irish taxes

Interesting. For me, the problem started when the Corporations and Councils stopped building houses and apartments — they built to a far higher standard, and with far better materials, than private builders producing the equivalent, and kept standards up to an extent.

I have read that taxes across Europe tend to be pretty much equivalent; for instance, in France, the income tax might seem lower than Ireland, but there are two stonking great property taxes. But there's no doubt they get more for what they pay — a government-run creche costs €22 a day there, and they have free or cheap medical treatment, universal.

Fr_Dougal

I think everyone should be deported, shake things up a bit.

I'd like to be deported to some tropical island.

HIB

kneemos wrote: »

It's usually minor stuff in fairness,no insurance,drunk and disorderly kind of thing.
The real headbangers mostly headed home when the bubble burst.

I wonder about that. I'd say the people who've gone home are actually the more motivated, hard working ones. Theres been an upswing in the Polish economy, for example, so I'd worry that the ambitious hardworking Poles may be over represented in the numbers of those going back to Poland, while we're left with the dross that is happy to sit on their behinds drawing benefits and maybe doing a little low level crime on the side.

Chuchote

Fr_Dougal wrote: »

I think everyone should be deported, shake things up a bit.

I'd like to be deported to some tropical island.

Mmm. Gay Paree for mee mee mee!

Paris en avril, c'est délicieux ♫♪♫

Canis Lupus

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

You're very right they should be given the boot. I would expect the same if I committed a crime somewhere in Eastern Europe.

The thing which really gets my goat is illegal immigration. We have 50,000 Irish illegal immigrants residing in the USA at the moment. No amnesty should be given to these people, they the broke law and did not follow the rules. A period of 6 months in detention followed by Deportation back to Ireland should be the order of the day for these people.

Whoah whoah whoah, now wait a second. These are white people you're talking about, not Mexicans.

stimpson

Fr_Dougal wrote: »

I think everyone should be deported, shake things up a bit.

I'd like to be deported to some tropical island.

Like somewhere in the Fillippines?

Samaris

I'm inclined to agree that if you go to another country and commit a crime (somewhat dependent on the nature of the crime and whether you do it more than once), you should have your right to stay in said country up for review. I do see some issues there in terms of families though. If, say, the main breadwinner gets done for driving without insurance, should the entire family be deported, even though it's say three or four people that have done nothing wrong, including a couple of kids, or should the family be kept even though without the breadwinner, it will probably be a drain on the state.

osarusan

Yes, another immigrant thread!

Uboat

Speedwell wrote: »

I think open borders is a good ideal to strive toward, in principle if not in practice. I know that quite a lot would have to change. But the idea that someone can be essentially imprisoned in a place for no better reason than that they happened to be born in a particular location just seems fundamentally unjust and primitive.

Thanks god you are not a PM, President or Minister responsible for immigration.

Calahonda52

Mena wrote: »

I find this mentality extremely interesting. Perhaps I'm sidetracking here but isn't it arrogant to assume that every immigrant comes to Ireland for a better life? Like Ireland's some nirvana of sorts. Or are you thinking asylum seeker?

I immigrated to Ireland 17 years ago and live there for 16 years. I came because my company needed my expertise and I saw opportunity for development. I got with it crappy weather, badly constructed houses, poor public service and excessive taxes.

We did stay and eventually made it our home, becoming citizens after falling deeply in love with the country and people but to assume immigrants are poor destitute oul souls seeking the gold at the end of the rainbow in every case is arrogant.

This all being said, I do agree with the sentiment that when hosted in a foreign country, be you a poor asylum seeker or immigrating to take the role of CEO of some company, you have a responsibility to behave and play your part. I'd be in favour of (within strict rules) of deporting re-offending criminals that are not Irish nationals. The practicalities of this, however, are complex with the way people establish themselves and build lives wherever they are, families, homes and the like.

There are several different categories here which get rolled up in any immigration thread:

1: like you, came here to work etc
2: come here from EU and can avail of our services here without making any contribution.
example: met a Latvian man recently, he is an epileptic with some additional special needs.
Moved here to get cared for under our health care system, resources not available in Latvia. So thats one less place for a WIN.
Same: a Hungarian lad is learning to play hurling in the CRC
Come here and get higher children allowances for the kids back home: e.g. Poland: euro 130m a year with no checking.
Come here having being released from jail in other EU countries, prison records deleted back home and then when crimes are committed here it becomes apparent what is what
3: Refugees under some UN sponsored pograms I don't understand.
4: Asylum seekers under schemes I don't understand.
5: gain entry under the discredited learn english schemes.
6: Come here illegally, primarily from the UK via the open border with NI
.

So any immigration discussion has to look at each category.

As for
but to assume immigrants are poor destitute oul souls seeking the gold at the end of the rainbow in every case is arrogant.

I agree: they want the gold at the start of the rainbow:D

Speedwell

Uboat wrote: »

Thanks god you are not a PM, President or Minister responsible for immigration.

Well, if there was a God I would also be thanking it for the very same thing, because the way immigration is thought of at the present time is a humanitarian and moral disaster, and I would not want to be responsible for such a thing.

Chuchote

Have the laws changed in the last 9 years?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7079709.stm

Ulysses Gaze

stimpson wrote: »

Like somewhere in the Fillippines?

Amazing how some of these places can get by without a proper sewerage system.

Mongfinder General

Uboat wrote: »

Thanks god you are not a PM, President or Minister responsible for immigration.

How do you know he's not the Taoiseach?

LuckyRoche

Speedwell wrote: »

I'm an immigrant to Ireland, born in America, married to an Irish citizen. I wouldn't have a fecking clue what an "American" name is, and if you held a gun to my head and forced me to pretend to write such a list it would probably include British, French, Spanish, and German names, along with some native names translated into their English, French, or Spanish equivalents. My maiden name would not be on the list because immigration has been something of a family hobby for centuries. My immigrant father was born in Hungary to a Jewish family that was at least partially Turkish and Romanian (that's Hungarian border history for you); my mother was born in the US to an immigrant Italian father from Rome (who reportedly left a first wife and family behind with the permanently unfulfilled promise to send for them later) and an immigrant Jewish mother whose family was prominent in religion and the arts in the Minsk area of Belarus. My brother's wife casually refers to herself as a "wetback" for laughs; she was literally carried through the river from Mexico to Texas when she was a tiny baby, illegally of course, not that she had any choice in the matter (she's a US citizen now).

If you applied the immigration laws as they exist as of today in the various countries involved, every member of my family who ever immigrated anywhere in the past would be "illegals", except for me, and they were in the process of changing a law in Ireland that could have made my status questionable if I had entered the country six months later (it probably doesn't apply to me, but I'm not a lawyer). So you can understand if I think that immigration legality and illegality are basically as relevant and valid as whether a half-orc is allowed to wear plate-mail armor according to the most recently published Dungeons and Dragons rulebook. Yeah, yeah, "national sovereignty" and all that, and naturally anyone setting out to deliberately harm people is a criminal, but the vast majority of immigrants are people with the gumption to get off their holes and try to find a place to live and work that is better than where they came from. Deporting them back to their home country doesn't solve the problem, it just makes it someone else's problem. And what, after all, are we in Ireland to do with the Irish who get deported from wherever they are because of some issue that could be more usefully dealt with in the country in which it occurred?

America is a country of immigrants as you exterminated the natives. Ireland is not. You get deported from America if you commit a felony. You sign a paper acknowledging this on your visa application.

kneemos

jacksie66 wrote: »

Boards.ie is gone to the dogs.
Not a day goes by that there isn't a thread about Muslims or whatnot..
Usually just descends in to a shouting match and name calling..

AH wouldn't go to the dogs.Not nearly white middle class enough.

Chuchote

LuckyRoche wrote: »

America is a country of immigrants as you exterminated the natives. Ireland is not. You get deported from America if you commit a felony. You sign a paper acknowledging this on your visa application.

I find Ireland much nicer since we started getting lots of immigrants — better restaurants, better food available in shops, cheery people speaking different languages, wider culture, more and different films and music… Improved the place no end, dar liom!

LuckyRoche

Chuchote wrote: »

I find Ireland much nicer since we started getting lots of immigrants — better restaurants, better food available in shops, cheery people speaking different languages, wider culture, more and different films and music… Improved the place no end, dar liom!

No arguments there.

But if they commit a serious crime, then they should be immediately sent to Dublin airport upon serving their sentence.

Chuchote

LuckyRoche wrote: »

No arguments there.

But if they commit a serious crime, then they should be immediately sent to Dublin airport upon serving their sentence.

That BBC article from 2007 seemed to suggest that they could be. I assume this is still the case.

LuckyRoche

LuckyRoche wrote: »

No arguments there.

But if they commit a serious crime, then they should be immediately sent to Dublin airport upon serving their sentence.

What should we do With The Irish that commit serious crime?
Is there anywhere we can send them too?

strandroad

bubblypop wrote: »

I think maybe we should start by giving out proper sentences to our home grown & foreign criminals.
You can't say, foreigners out because they committed a crime but yet allow Irish to rake up 70 & 80 previous convictions.

A bit racist.

I actually find that if a foreign name is involved, the person is more likely to receive what people see as a proper sentence, none of this "mitigating circumstances" stuff or suspended sentences after a whole reel of previous convictions, compo claims seem to be thrown out too. I've never read about a 20 year old foreign lad with a 60 convictions badge of honour either. It's as if there is a particular homegrown persona the law does not want to harm, but amazingly it can be applied otherwise?

LuckyRoche

bubblypop wrote: »

What should we do With The Irish that commit serious crime?
Is there anywhere we can send them too?

Unless Australia is still up for it, you can't deport natural born citizens anywhere.

Pelvis Parsley

bubblypop wrote: »

What should we do With The Irish that commit serious crime?
Is there anywhere we can send them too?

Oh, well done you.

Ulysses Gaze

bubblypop wrote: »

What should we do With The Irish that commit serious crime?
Is there anywhere we can send them too?

Seriously. That's your retort?

http://fermentationwineblog.com/wp-content/uploads/redherring.png

notharrypotter

bubblypop wrote: »

What should we do With The Irish that commit serious crime?
Is there anywhere we can send them too?

There are plenty of islands off the West Coast.

bubblypop

Nope,
This is my retort!

bubblypop wrote: »

I think maybe we should start by giving out proper sentences to our home grown & foreign criminals.
You can't say, foreigners out because they committed a crime but yet allow Irish to rake up 70 & 80 previous convictions.

A bit racist.

LuckyRoche

bubblypop wrote: »

You can't say, foreigners out because they committed a crime but yet allow Irish to rake up 70 & 80 previous convictions.

A bit racist.

Wanting foreign criminals returned home is racist? The term is wrongly used so much it's beginning to lose all meaning and deflects from very real cases of racism.

LuckyRoche

LuckyRoche wrote: »

Wanting foreign criminals returned home is racist? The term is wrongly used so much it's beginning to lose all meaning and deflects from very real cases of racism.

Wanting to treat criminals differently based on their nationality kinda is...

Pelvis Parsley

LuckyRoche wrote: »

Wanting foreign criminals returned home is racist? The term is wrongly used so much it's beginning to lose all meaning and deflects from very real cases of racism.

Let the hand wringers overuse and abuse it all they want, they'll only undermine their own blinkered little worldview in the long run.

In fact, they've already gone a long way down that road.

Sentencing in this country is a bad joke though, in fairness.

Pelvis Parsley

bubblypop wrote: »

Wanting to treat criminals differently based on their nationality kinda is...

Sure it is.

Pelvis Parsley

Pelvis Parsley wrote: »

Sure it is.

Explain how it's not?

If someone commits an offence then they deserve to be punished by a sentence that reflects the severity Of The offence.
Why should some be treated differently to others, if they have committed the same crime?

Pelvis Parsley

What's wrong with giving them an equal sentence, and then kicking them out?

A proper sentence mind you, as with slick fringed pricks like Anto with fifty previous convictions.

Bubbaclaus

I'm against treating somebody different and more harshly because of their ethnic background or nationality. Also goes against the 4 founding pillars of the European Union.