Requesting more detailed speed camera picture?

kirving

Received a fine in the post today for 62 in a 50 zone.

My issue with the fine is that photo given is just of the registration plate and is not necessarily my car.

I have zero issue in paying the fine if it was me, but I have no recollection of the time or place, and would like to have a fuller picture to be sure it was me.

Is this something I can request?

Kenny Logins

Yes.

XR3i

slow down and you will get less penalty ooints

kirving

Fair enough, will request it on Tuesday. To be honest the picture that was given is so close it could be any car with the registration on it.

savagethegoat

yes you can do this. A picture of just a number plate proves nothing.

Del2005

Kevin Irving wrote: »

Fair enough, will request it on Tuesday. To be honest the picture that was given is so close it could be any car with the registration on it.

They only post the registration plate as some people had people in the car who weren't supposed to be leading to relationship issues. Just to note that the 28 days to pay doesn't reset when you request the picture.

Arcade_Tryer

savagethegoat wrote: »

yes you can do this. A picture of just a number plate proves nothing.

Well, it proves what car was used to commit the offense. And the car would be registered to an owner. So it is then the owner's responsibility to declare who was driving the car. So it does prove quite a lot.

The owner of the car should know if they were driving the car, and if it wasn't them, then who was driving it. That's the way it works for most people.

hi_im_fil

It doesn't prove what car was used, it simply shows the registration plate that was shown by the car which commited the offence. Could be a case of a duplicate plate going around.

Arcade_Tryer

hi_im_fil wrote: »

It doesn't prove what car was used, it simply shows the registration plate that was shown by the car which commited the offence. Could be a case of a duplicate plate going around.

Possibly. Highly unlikely though.

But possible.

The notification letter sent out is quite specific though so really someone should know for sure. Understand what the op is saying about not recalling the day in question. But if everyone said that, it would create a lot more work and administration costs. People should bare that in mind when complaining about tax and other such gripes.

savagethegoat

Arcade_Tryer wrote: »

Well, it proves what car was used to commit the offense. And the car would be registered to an owner. So it is then the owner's responsibility to declare who was driving the car. So it does prove quite a lot.

The owner of the car should know if they were driving the car, and if it wasn't them, then who was driving it. That's the way it works for most people.

It proves nothing of the sort, the car could have been parked at the time or on a trailer.

pixbyjohn

May I ask how long was it between the time of the alleged speeding and receiving the letter please?

CiniO

Arcade_Tryer wrote: »

Possibly. Highly unlikely though.

But possible.

The notification letter sent out is quite specific though so really someone should know for sure. Understand what the op is saying about not recalling the day in question. But if everyone said that, it would create a lot more work and administration costs. People should bare that in mind when complaining about tax and other such gripes.

There is no law in Ireland forcing vehicle owner to remember or keep register of people who drive their car at specific time/date.

On the other hand, people are getting those letters with fines requesting vehicle owners to either accept fine themselves or remember who was driving.

Both above facts, doesn't play together well.

That's why picture of car and person driving should be sent with every fine IMO.

wonski

CiniO wrote: »

There is no law in Ireland forcing vehicle owner to remember or keep register of people who drive their car at specific time/date.

On the other hand, people are getting those letters with fines requesting vehicle owners to either accept fine themselves or remember who was driving.

Both above facts, doesn't play together well.

That's why picture of car and person driving should be sent with every fine IMO.

I doubt such a law exists anywhere in the world.

You can request full picture of you don't know and want to contest the charge.

As someone else mentioned, sending full picture could lead to privacy issues, so the way the system works now seems to be a sensible option.

CiniO

wonski wrote: »

I doubt such a law exists anywhere in the world.

Probably not, and it would be overkill.

But in most parts of the world, if they want to fine a driver for speeding, it's up to them to prove he/she was driving. (f.e. picture of driver face).

In Ireland law is constructed in that way, that it's vehicle owner who is automatically assumed to be guilty of speeding, unless he can prove otherwise.

That's against basic rule of "innocent unless proven guilty". It's very bad system, but that's what it is...

Luckily it's not as bad as some people keep repeating in this forum.
It's common myth, that unless you can point out a person who was driving and that person accepts responsibility (i.e. pays the fine) you will be fined for speeding. That's not true.

If your car was caught speeding by speed camera, and you can prove it was not you driving (f.e. you can prove you were somewhere else at that time) then they can't prosecute you for speeding, even if you can't/won't point out who was driving.

keno-daytrader

XR3i wrote: »

slow down and you will get less penalty ooints

Mean people suck

Arcade_Tryer

CiniO wrote: »

There is no law in Ireland forcing vehicle owner to remember or keep register of people who drive their car at specific time/date.

Of course not. But it's reasonable to expect personal responsibility in such situations regarding knowledge of the whereabouts of your property of a registered vehicle.

CiniO wrote: »

Luckily it's not as bad as some people keep repeating in this forum.
It's common myth, that unless you can point out a person who was driving and that person accepts responsibility (i.e. pays the fine) you will be fined for speeding. That's not true.

If your car was caught speeding by speed camera, and you can prove it was not you driving (f.e. you can prove you were somewhere else at that time) then they can't prosecute you for speeding, even if you can't/won't point out who was driving.

I imagine you would have to report the car stolen however. And then questions would be raised regarding any time differential between reporting the car stolen and the offence date and time.

Arcade_Tryer

keno-daytrader wrote: »

Mean people suck

Nothing mean about it. Practical advice.

But off topic, and potentially insensitive to the immediate situation the Op finds themselves in.

CiniO

Arcade_Tryer wrote: »

Of course not. But it's reasonable to expect personal responsibility in such situations regarding knowledge of the whereabouts of your property of a registered vehicle.

I wouldn't say it's reasonable to expect that, and considering there's no law about it, there' no reason to expect that.

Situations vary a lot.
One person might have a car and drive it himself only, possibly allowing someone to drive it once every few years. In such case person will most likely remember by who and when vehicle was driven.

But in other case, there might be a family, where car is registered in father's name, but used by all father, mother, 2 kids, and grandad.
How can registered owner (father) know who was using it and when.

As above - it's not reasonable to expect that.

I imagine you would have to report the car stolen however. And then questions would be raised regarding any time differential between reporting the car stolen and the offence date and time.

No, why would you need to report a car stolen?

As I mentioned earlier - you are not obliged to remember/record who was driving your car and when.

Imagine going to court.
Judge asks you - why didn't you pay speed fine?
You - because I wasn't driving.
Judge - who was driving then?
You - I don't know.
Judge - so how do you know it wasn't you?
You - Because at that time I was at work 200 km away from place offence took place and I can prove that.
Judge - OK, not guilty.


There couldn't be any other outcome.

Judge can not prosecute you for speeding offence, which you can prove you didn't commit.

Judge also can't prosecute you for not pointing out who was using your car at the time of the offence, as there's no law which would require you to know that.

Failing to nominate a driver is an offence & you can be prosecuted for that.

Granted, you won't get the penalty points, it might be worth it to some people, but maybe not if you get the judge on a bad day.

OldMrBrennan83

This post has been deleted.

vicwatson

If a car is registered in two names and one has say 9 penalty points and the other none, I assume the one with none can sign the declaration form and nothing more would be said??

Allinall

Patww79 wrote: »

What can you do if you weren't driving and don't know who was though?

You either find out who was driving- shouldn't be too hard to do, or accept the points.

OldMrBrennan83

This post has been deleted.

Allinall

Patww79 wrote: »

But you can't accept points, you weren't driving.

The registered owner is automatically awarded the points, unless they give details of whoever was driving.

vicwatson

Allinall wrote: »

The registered owner is automatically awarded the points, unless they give details of whoever was driving.

What if there are two registered owners?

CiniO

bubblypop wrote: »

Failing to nominate a driver is an offence & you can be prosecuted for that.

No, it is not an offence.
As it's not required by law to keep record of timesheet of drivers of your vehicle, it's also not an offence to fail to nominate a driver...

If you really believe otherwise, please point me out to the law which says it actually is an offence.

CiniO

Allinall wrote: »

The registered owner is automatically awarded the points, unless they give details of whoever was driving.

That's not entirely true.

Registered owner is automatically awared fine and points, unless he can prove he wasn't driving.

One of the ways of proving is point out someone else who was driving provided that person accepts that fact.

But obviously there are other ways to prove you weren't driving.

CiniO

CiniO wrote: »

No, it is not an offence.
As it's not required by law to keep record of timesheet of drivers of your vehicle, it's also not an offence to fail to nominate a driver...

If you really believe otherwise, please point me out to the law which says it actually is an offence.

Section 103 (4) of the Road Traffic Acts refers to it I believe.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/courts/high-court/three-drivers-lose-challenges-to-speeding-convictions-1.2410635

These things mostly depend on the judge on the day I reckon

GM228

bubblypop wrote: »

CiniO wrote: »

No, it is not an offence.
As it's not required by law to keep record of timesheet of drivers of your vehicle, it's also not an offence to fail to nominate a driver...

If you really believe otherwise, please point me out to the law which says it actually is an offence.

Section 103 (4) of the Road Traffic Acts refers to it I believe.

Bubblypop is correct Cinio, under section 103 (4)(i) you must give a name and address of whoever was driving if it wasn't the registered owner.

Under section 103 (13) failure to do so is an offence.

The only defence is someone did not know and could not with reasonable diligence have ascertained who was driving their vehicle - in other words the care and attention that is expected from and is ordinarily exercised by a reasonable and prudent person under the circumstances requires someone to know who is driving their vehicle, the only exception realistically is if your vehicle is stolen.

darg

CiniO wrote: »

No, it is not an offence.
As it's not required by law to keep record of timesheet of drivers of your vehicle, it's also not an offence to fail to nominate a driver...

If you really believe otherwise, please point me out to the law which says it actually is an offence.

Yet another example of how posters can be grossly misinformed and still offer inaccurate legal advice as fact

jackofalltrades

Kevin Irving wrote: »

Received a fine in the post today for 62 in a 50 zone.

My issue with the fine is that photo given is just of the registration plate and is not necessarily my car.

I have zero issue in paying the fine if it was me, but I have no recollection of the time or place, and would like to have a fuller picture to be sure it was me.

Is this something I can request?

Email npo@garda.ie with the reference number on your speeding ticket letter and ask them for the full picture.
They'll then post it out to you.
Pictures aren't great quality though.

robtri

CiniO wrote: »

Probably not, and it would be overkill.

But in most parts of the world, if they want to fine a driver for speeding, it's up to them to prove he/she was driving. (f.e. picture of driver face).

In Ireland law is constructed in that way, that it's vehicle owner who is automatically assumed to be guilty of speeding, unless he can prove otherwise.

That's against basic rule of "innocent unless proven guilty". It's very bad system, but that's what it is...

Luckily it's not as bad as some people keep repeating in this forum.
It's common myth, that unless you can point out a person who was driving and that person accepts responsibility (i.e. pays the fine) you will be fined for speeding. That's not true.

If your car was caught speeding by speed camera, and you can prove it was not you driving (f.e. you can prove you were somewhere else at that time) then they can't prosecute you for speeding, even if you can't/won't point out who was driving.

It is in keeping with innocent till proven guilty.

the owner gets a fine in the post (because there is no way the Garda can know who was driving the car, and i assume this is same else where as facial recognition and database sare not up to scratch yet.

the owner can accept the fine i.e plead guilty, take the fine and points....

Or the owner can refute the charges and go to court to fight his case....
not disclosing the driver of the vehicle can be fought in court....