Suing VW over emissions scandal... Mod warning post 313

Henry Ford III

adox wrote: »

...I intend to hold on to whatever car I buy in the coming days for at least 4-5 years so I still may end up buying the Passat despite my reservations.

Fair enough but if/when VW values fall you'll be annoyed for a long time having paid too much for it.

Drummerboy08

Henry Ford III wrote: »

Fair enough but if/when VW values fall you'll be annoyed for a long time having paid too much for it.

What are the alternatives here?

Buy a Mondeo (residual value is already brutal here) and lose a chunk of money.

Buy an I40 and live in the knowledge that the car you now own is horrendous.

Buy an Insignia, lost most of it's value in the lifetime you have it, while driving a car that was basically launched in 2008.

The only real alternative to a Passat is a Superb or a Mazda 6.

The Superb has the same running gear, so if you're upset at our German brethren then the Superb isn't the one for you.

The 6 is probably the only viable alternative and Is a lovely car to drive. The only thing that scares me is the reliability of their engines which pretty much brings me back to square one.

Special Circumstances

Drummerboy08 wrote: »

The 6 is probably the only viable alternative and Is a lovely car to drive. The only thing that scares me is the reliability of their engines which pretty much brings me back to square one.

Indeed. Seems crazy that they wouldn't just implement an emissions control "optimisation" feature too... one setup for testing that bears no relation to that used the rest of the time. Would probably run fine without any of das clean diesel malarkey that those in the know don't need to worry about!

adox

Henry Ford III wrote: »

Fair enough but if/when VW values fall you'll be annoyed for a long time having paid too much for it.

Remains to be seen if there is any fall in value beyond normal depreciation.

I am in a bit of a quandry because there just isnt an option as attractive in that range as the Passat with the highline spec.

I originally looked at a 3/5 series maybe a year or two older but then you have the timing chain issues with them.

Isnt just speculation that there will be a fall in value over this? There has been no signs of it in this country so far.

Henry Ford III

adox wrote: »

Remains to be seen if there is any fall in value beyond normal depreciation.

I am in a bit of a quandry because there just isnt an option as attractive in that range as the Passat with the highline spec.

I originally looked at a 3/5 series maybe a year or two older but then you have the timing chain issues with them.

Isnt just speculation that there will be a fall in value over this? There has been no signs of it in this country so far.

Considerable falls in value elsewhere though.

Now this either means legislators are basically all wrong, and VW stupid to go along with the fines and recalls, or that Irish VW buyers know something everybody else doesn't.

adox

Henry Ford III wrote: »

Considerable falls in value elsewhere though.

Now this either means legislators are basically all wrong, and VW stupid to go along with the fines and recalls, or that Irish VW buyers know something everybody else doesn't.

Where have there been considerable falls in value? In the US?
Anywhere in Europe that has seen a considerable fall?

Henry Ford III

adox wrote: »

Where have there been considerable falls in value? In the US?
Anywhere in Europe that has seen a considerable fall?

http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/volkswagen/92893/vw-emissions-scandal-recalls-compensation-is-your-car-affected-latest-news

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/volkswagen-emissions-scandal-takes-its-toll-on-cars-resale-value-a6673161.html

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/road-and-rail-transport/11962989/Volkswagen-may-have-to-foot-bill-for-fall-in-resale-value-of-cars.html

I don't think we've seen the true extent of the problem here at all. Yet.

adox

Henry Ford III wrote: »

http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/volkswagen/92893/vw-emissions-scandal-recalls-compensation-is-your-car-affected-latest-news

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/volkswagen-emissions-scandal-takes-its-toll-on-cars-resale-value-a6673161.html

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/road-and-rail-transport/11962989/Volkswagen-may-have-to-foot-bill-for-fall-in-resale-value-of-cars.html

I don't think we've seen the true extent of the problem here at all. Yet.

Thanks, will have a proper read at lunchtime.
Had a quick read of the autoexpress link but cant find any mention of fall in resale value of cars.

Henry Ford III

http://www.carmagazine.co.uk/car-news/industry-news/volkswagen/vws-refusal-to-compensate-uk-dieselgate-owners-branded-deeply-unfair/

There's plenty of info on this available. Only time will tell how it'll pan out but right now there's considerable uncertainty.

Drummerboy08

Henry Ford III wrote: »

http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/volkswagen/92893/vw-emissions-scandal-recalls-compensation-is-your-car-affected-latest-news

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/volkswagen-emissions-scandal-takes-its-toll-on-cars-resale-value-a6673161.html

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/road-and-rail-transport/11962989/Volkswagen-may-have-to-foot-bill-for-fall-in-resale-value-of-cars.html

I don't think we've seen the true extent of the problem here at all. Yet.

2 of those articles are almost a year old, hardly relevant in a very fluid used car market.

Similar happened in Ireland around that time frame - VW residual value softened for a period while people waited to see what would happen.

Since then values have hardened again, I would be surprised if this hasn't happenedin other EU states.

Henry Ford III

Drummerboy08 wrote: »

2 of those articles are almost a year old, hardly relevant in a very fluid used car market.

Similar happened in Ireland around that time frame - VW residual value softened for a period while people waited to see what would happen.

Since then values have hardened again, I would be surprised if this hasn't happenedin other EU states.

That doesn't mean there's no potential downside though.

Drummerboy08

Henry Ford III wrote: »

That doesn't mean there's no potential downside though.

In that case we'll say that when it rains they're worth less too? We're clutching at straws here to justify the claim of a drop in values.

I'm yet to see any definitive proof of a drop in residual values. And I don't mean an article written by a journalist looking for a sensational headline either.

To qualify the above, I spend the bones of 70 hours a week looking at used car values.

Henry Ford III

Drummerboy08 wrote: »

In that case we'll say that when it rains they're worth less too? We're clutching at straws here to justify the claim of a drop in values.

I'm yet to see any definitive proof of a drop in residual values. And I don't mean an article written by a journalist looking for a sensational headline either.

To qualify the above, I spend the bones of 70 hours a week looking at used car values.

There hasn't been a drop yet. That's my point. Confidence is a fickle thing and things could easily change.

Interesting to find this site http://www.vwscandal.ie/ cropped up in a search though.

Apparently the scandal is likely cost VW c.US$18,000,000,000.

So there's still no problem eh?

adox

Weighing everything up and the amount of time I will keep the car, I think I`m going to go ahead with the purchase of the Passat.

Drummerboy08

Henry Ford III wrote: »

There hasn't been a drop yet. That's my point. Confidence is a fickle thing and things could easily change.

Interesting to find this site http://www.vwscandal.ie/ cropped up in a search though.

Apparently the scandal is likely cost VW c.US$18,000,000,000.

So there's still no problem eh?

There was a slight drop as I alluded to in a previous comment, due to the initial uncertainty around the issues. This has since rectified itself with values back to normal.

You are correct, confidence is very fickle, but with the exception of a minor drop in VW values (interesting to note that Skoda / Audi / Seat remained pretty much unaffected) confidence remains good in the used car market.

I'm sure there is a problem at a global level in terms of the cost of fix and compensation in the US, but there does not seem to be a problem with used VW values in Ireland, or for that matter Europe.

Henry Ford III

Drummerboy08 wrote: »

There was a slight drop as I alluded to in a previous comment, due to the initial uncertainty around the issues. This has since rectified itself with values back to normal.

You are correct, confidence is very fickle, but with the exception of a minor drop in VW values (interesting to note that Skoda / Audi / Seat remained pretty much unaffected) confidence remains good in the used car market.

I'm sure there is a problem at a global level in terms of the cost of fix and compensation in the US, but there does not seem to be a problem with used VW values in Ireland, or for that matter Europe.

Are you familiar with King Canute or perhaps Nero?

All it'd take is a few disgruntled customers who aren't happy with the VW fix, and things could easily snowball here.

If the fix increases fuel consumption, reduces performance, or increases C02 emissions I've little doubt the affected cars values will be considerably reduced.

US$18,000,000,000 is an awful lot of money even for a giant like VW and they certainly wouldn't have reserved it unless it was absolutely necessary. They didn't make the slightest effort to defend their position tacitly acknowledging their wrongdoing. They blamed rogue engineers for the defeat devices, and the cull in the management is ongoing.

The extent of this issue can't be appreciated by looking at historical used values - the future is the key and that's very uncertain.

This scandal won't be a storm in a tea cup I think.

Gazzmonkey

Henry Ford III wrote: »

If the fix increases fuel consumption, reduces performance, or increases C02 emissions I've little doubt the affected cars values will be considerably reduced.

So by that logic if I don't get the fix I will see no reduction

Drummerboy08

I can see your point.

However, if we apply the what if logic to everything in life where would we be?

Henry Ford III

Gazzmonkey wrote: »

So by that logic if I don't get the fix I will see no reduction

Only a potential drop in value.

gctest50

Henry Ford III wrote: »

.......I don't think we've seen the true extent of the problem here at all. Yet.

Same thing all over again :

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-volkswagen-emissions-audi-idUSKCN10I0PB

U.S. authorities have found three unapproved software programs in 3.0 liter diesel engines made by Volkswagen's Audi unit, German weekly Bild am Sonntag reported

The software allowed the turbocharged direct injection (TDI) engines used in Audi's Q7, Porsche's Cayenne and VW's Touareg models to shut down emissions control systems after about 22 minutes, the paper said.



Volkswagen has admitted it cheated on U.S. diesel emissions tests for years and said in June it would spend as much as $15.3 billion buying back vehicles from consumers

Gazzmonkey

Henry Ford III wrote: »

Only a potential drop in value.

So would it be better to get the fix & sell or just leave it alone & sell?

Personally I won't be selling for at least a year which by that time I'll have it fully paid off anyway.

Also, I'm perfectly happy not getting the fix as my lovely B8 has treated me very well in my 3 years of ownership so if it ain't broken don't fix it.

ofcork

VW are being fined over 5 million in italy now too surely this is going to affect them long term.

Stallingrad

I can see the German Govt/tax payer getting involved is this keeps up. Hard to see how the can foot the bill for whats coming.

ofcork

The state of lower saxony wont be happy as they own a stake in vag.

Dazzers

corglass wrote: »

So in summary:

1. The OP it a chancer. We've established that.

2. VW owners haven't suffered a financial loss. We've established that too.

3. Finally once a thread descends into MPG claims they'll always be "outrageous" claims followed by a poster challenging the legitimacy of it.

So in summary: we have a thread full of jealously, 90% of the posts like this are from non VW owners who are just sad that they cannot claim. I own a VW involved in the scandal. I too believe that any VW owner in my situation should receive either compensation or their car bought back by VW. For one, as soon as VW apply this "Fix" the fuel consumption, the tax rate and also maybe performance will be affected

I didn't choose my car with the environment in mind. I chose my car based on my pocket i.e fuel consumption and tax rates. Both of these will now cost me more therefore i have been sold a car not fit for purpose. A lot of main dealer and garages in general wont take these cars as trade ins. This is fact, google it!! The OP asked a simple question aimed at other VW owners which then got hijacked by a load of do gooders. Iv never in all my life seen people so quick to defend a multi billion euro company. Get a life people or get yourself a VW so you too could be in for a chance to claim

And just an update, iv gone with a solicitor in Mayo who are bringing the case on the 7th Sept. So yes this case will see court time and its looking very good for the owners of these cars. They have a line up of experts who will testify against VW, the same experts who testified in the US, the same case in the US which was won. We will wait and see.

ofcork

I was reading today 32 employees of a tier one supplier to vw are accused of being part of the scheme.

Toyotafanboi

Dazzers wrote: »

as soon as VW apply this "Fix" the fuel consumption, the tax rate and also maybe performance will be affected

I didn't choose my car with the environment in mind. I chose my car based on my pocket i.e fuel consumption and tax rates. Both of these will now cost me more therefore i have been sold a car not fit for purpose. A lot of main dealer and garages in general wont take these cars as trade ins. This is fact.

Have you absolutely any proof of any of that?

I don't know how "google" will stand up in court.

Atlantic Dawn

It's back in court in Castlebar on Tuesday...

Tuesday’s hearing is believed to be the first to seek that the car firm make public the original expert opinion and technical evidence it used to develop a fix for the affected engines. It comes on the back of an interim order of discovery granted to Mrs Higgins in the Castlebar court by Judge Mary Devins on June 7th.

http://www.irishtimes.com/business/manufacturing/vw-likely-to-face-international-implications-over-district-court-case-1.2777285

Dazzers

Toyotafanboi wrote: »

Have you absolutely any proof of any of that?

I don't know how "google" will stand up in court.

I don't have to prove anything to you or anyone else. My solicitors job is to prove VW mislead their consumers, which has already been done in the US and which will also be done here. The solicitors in Ireland wouldn't be taking these cases on a no win no fee bases if they didn't have the proof of wrong doing and miss information. Buyers and consumers rights are there for a reason.

Also you can use your common sense with most of it, the reason the current tax is €200 per year is due to the lower emissions. Once this changes so does the tax rate.

Are you one of these posters hijacking this thread because you don't have a claim ? Would you do us all a favor and go post on a thread that you actually have some valid input on instead of spreading bull about things you know nothing about.

GustavoFring

Toyotafanboi wrote: »

Have you absolutely any proof of any of that?

I don't know how "google" will stand up in court.

VW and the government came out at the start of ask this. VW will pay anything owed (although I'd be shocked if anything was paid or looked for even).

bazz26

Toyotafanboi

Dazzers wrote: »

Would you do us all a favor and go post on a thread that you actually have some valid input on instead of spreading bull about things you know nothing about.

There's only one person here spreading bull about things they know nothing about and it's not me.

Special Circumstances

ofcork wrote: »

I was reading today 32 employees of a tier one supplier to vw are accused of being part of the scheme.

Boche? Post up the link if you have, I'd be interested.

grogi

Dazzers wrote: »

/.../ I didn't choose my car with the environment in mind. /.../

The emotional distress caused by driving a polluting vehicle would actually be a valid basis for a suit . But you've admitted you give s..te about the environment...

You are nothing more than an über hypocrite.

iamtony

I bought a 151 vw effected by the problem 3 months ago, I never thought to ask the dealer about it and he never mentioned it. I wonder where I stand in all of this? It was an ex rental car so would the rental company who bought it new be the ones who would be claiming?
The rental company who owned it now have a fleet of 161's of the same vehicle, I wonder did they get a special deal of vw over the issue.

Fiskar

The punter will pay for the VW emissions scandal when the Government up the price of diesel in the budget. That is always the easy way out for the government where VW won't fix the car or pay money over in the way of a fine. No fines here!

ofcork

Special Circumstances wrote: »

Boche? Post up the link if you have, I'd be interested.

It was only part of a review of the tiguan in the examiner that it was mentioned.

grogi

iamtony wrote: »

I bought a 151 vw effected by the problem 3 months ago, I never thought to ask the dealer about it and he never mentioned it. I wonder where I stand in all of this? It was an ex rental car so would the rental company who bought it new be the ones who would be claiming?
The rental company who owned it now have a fleet of 161's of the same vehicle, I wonder did they get a special deal of vw over the issue.

What other loses do you suffer, apart from lack of sleep while thinking of all the golds you'll get from VW?!

Atlantic Dawn

It is impossible for any of the cars that the cheat device was fitted on to pass the EU emissions test with the same results with the device removed without a serious degrading of engine performance. The fix simply removes the defeat device functionality and without them supplying you with documentaion stating the post fix emissions is 100% a waste of time and a complete PR exercise for lightweight EU governments to accept.

iamtony

grogi wrote: »

What other loses do you suffer, apart from lack of sleep while thinking of all the golds you'll get from VW?!

Well the big worry I have is down the line. If they manage to keep the mpg and the performance the same after their retrofit my guess is the emmissions will just barely scrap through, which mean a few years from now when I go for an nct there's no room for error and its quite possible I won't be able to meet the requirements for nct.
Besides that I'm sure it will effect resale value to some extent.

Atlantic Dawn

iamtony wrote: »

Well the big worry I have is down the line. If they manage to keep the mpg and the performance the same after their retrofit my guess is the emmissions will just barely scrap through, which mean a few years from now when I go for an nct there's no room for error and its quite possible I won't be able to meet the requirements for nct.
Besides that I'm sure it will effect resale value to some extent.

Diesel emissions are not tested for the NCT.

iamtony

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

Diesel emissions are not tested for the NCT.

Maybe not now but what if the introduce it?

grogi

iamtony wrote: »

Maybe not now but what if the introduce it?

So you'd would like a compensation for improbable failing of NCT (the car should pass after the fix) after even more improbable introduction of NOx testing.

Sound plan...

iamtony

grogi wrote: »

So you'd would like a compensation for improbable failing of NCT (the car should pass after the fix) after even more improbable introduction of NOx testing.

Sound plan...

What's with all the hostility in here? If there free money being given out by vw then I sure a hell would like a piece of that pie!

mickdw

iamtony wrote: »

What's with all the hostility in here? If there free money being given out by vw then I sure a hell would like a piece of that pie!

I'm with ya. VW cheated to gain market share and therefore made billions off it. They should be held accountable and customers compensated.
I wonder is this deal available to all manufactures? whereby vw are allowed classify the cars as being in a low emissions bracket and then simply paying the tax difference directly to the government. Surely that is giving them a sales advantage and amounts to illegal state aid?

grogi

iamtony wrote: »

What's with all the hostility in here? If there free money being given out by vw then I sure a hell would like a piece of that pie!

It is against the same posture that brought the insurance market to the mess it is right now. It is against any frivolous suits and using the courtroom for private games and gains.

As you said - free money. Compensation is not free money - it is COMPENSATION for SOMETHING. I keep asking - what do people want compensation for. And only thing I hear is "something that might happen in future". The car might fail NCT (maybe), the depreciation will be harder (maybe), the car might be banned from the road (not going to happen) etc etc. So, when all those horrible things happen, is the time to file a suit.

By filing now the plaintiffs are just diluting the gravity of the issue.

I hate what VW did and I have expressed it multiple times - I believe it should be made bankrupt. But the money should go to offset the pollution - by investing into clean motoring, exp. EV infrastructure. Not to be spend by Joe Average to buy another... VW.

Falcon L

I don't drive a VAG car, but I drove behind one once. How much can I claim? :angel:

grogi

mickdw wrote: »

I'm with ya. VW cheated to gain market share and therefore made billions off it. They should be held accountable and customers compensated.
I wonder is this deal available to all manufactures? whereby vw are allowed classify the cars as being in a low emissions bracket and then simply paying the tax difference directly to the government. Surely that is giving them a sales advantage and amounts to illegal state aid?

For what?

And you clearly don't understand the difference between what the cars are taxed on and what VW cheated on...

mickdw

grogi wrote: »

For what?

And you clearly don't understand the difference between what the cars are taxed on and what VW cheated on...

I actually do understand quite well. They admitted to co2 irregularities in Europe and that was where the point arose re vw paying any lost taxes directly to government as opposed to reclassifying cars already on the road.

Compensated for being sold a car that is nowhere near as clean as a customer would have believed whether it be nox or co2.
Compensated for loss due to reduced valuation on open market. May not be the case but needs assessing at least.
Compensated for time required to take car into vw for recall. Would amount to a days work missed for me.
Compensated for perhaps purchasing a car based on knowingly false advertising.

grogi

mickdw wrote: »

I actually do understand quite well. They admitted to co2 irregularities in Europe and that was where the point arose re vw paying any lost taxes directly to government as opposed to reclassifying cars already on the road.

Source please.

Compensated for being sold a car that is nowhere near as clean as a customer would have believed whether it be nox or co2.
Compensated for loss due to reduced valuation on open market. May not be the case but needs assessing at least.
Compensated for time required to take car into vw for recall. Would amount to a days work missed for me.
Compensated for perhaps purchasing a car based on knowingly false advertising.

1. Compensation is not due to consumer, but whole society.
2. Yes, needs assesement. But it was proven multiple times here there is no loss at the moment.
3. I like it.
4. Where's the loss there?