why do we have an army equitation team ?

Markcheese

Is it actually any use to the army ?? Great as they are.. Apart from a heritage thing... could the the money be better spent else where...
Or is it just something the governent wants and ups the budget by that amount..

ezra_

Markcheese wrote: »

Is it actually any use to the army ?? Great as they are.. Apart from a heritage thing... could the the money be better spent else where...
Or is it just something the governent wants and ups the budget by that amount..

They were pretty much set up to showcase Irish bloodlines in horses (which would drive business in the national stud and other places).

Nowadays they have horses that aren't just Irish bred.

Larbre34

Horsemanship is fine tradition of the military, particularly the Irish Defence Forces, its a showpiece of discipline and excellence and a great advert for the Country. And historically they achieve excellent results in international sport and offer role models to young people. Whether the money could be better spent elsewhere is a matter of opinion, personally I think its very well spent.

Markcheese

I suppose my question was does it add anything to the military, or is it a drain on resources that could go elsewhere..
If its a worthwhile thing for the state to be involved in then the army may well be the best group to run it...

CelticRambler

The Equitation School was founded in 1926 to promote Ireland and the Irish horse. Since then Equitation School riders have been the backbone of Irish show-jumping and event teams. Army riders have represented Ireland at Olympic, World and European Championship level in Show-jumping and Three Day Eventing.

Mission of the Equitation School

To advertise the Irish sport horse through participation in International competitions at the highest level.

It could also be said that the Equitation School has represented a shop window for many of Ireland’s other assets, particularly in the areas of tourism, trade and marketing, by putting emphasis on Ireland and things Irish in a public and eminently suitable way.

Tuning in from abroad to discussion in Ireland (via Boards, Joe Duffy, Marian Finucane, Newstalk, etc) about funds being "wasted" or "better used elsewhere", it's obvious that a great number of people in Ireland haven't a clue as to the enormous return on investment they get for the relatively modest amount of tax that goes into these "showcase" activities.

It's also nice for Ireland to be known for something other than Guinness. :rolleyes:

ezra_

CelticRambler wrote: »

Tuning in from abroad to discussion in Ireland (via Boards, Joe Duffy, Marian Finucane, Newstalk, etc) about funds being "wasted" or "better used elsewhere", it's obvious that a great number of people in Ireland haven't a clue as to the enormous return on investment they get for the relatively modest amount of tax that goes into these "showcase" activities.

It's also nice for Ireland to be known for something other than Guinness. :rolleyes:

They now use a mix of horses, whereas before it was just Irish bloodlines.

tac foley

HMTQ is extraordinarily fond of her Irish horses, with good reason. Besides which, EVERY army that calls itself an army has an equitation team. Look up the results of the last few Olympic Games and international competitions and see where the riders learned their skills.

Besides all that, there is the cachet of being able to call yourself 'captain' so-and-so if you are/were an army rider - usually the post-service rank 'titles' used by some sad old farts begins at major.

Captain Mark 'Foggy' Phillips - former husband of TPR - is called captain for this reason.

tac

ohnonotgmail

tac foley wrote: »

HMTQ is extraordinarily fond of her Irish horses, with good reason. Besides which, EVERY army that calls itself an army has an equitation team. Look up the results of the last few Olympic Games and international competitions and see where the riders learned their skills.

Besides all that, there is the cachet of being able to call yourself 'captain' so-and-so if you are/were an army rider - usually the post-service rank 'titles' used by some sad old farts begins at major.

Captain Mark 'Foggy' Phillips - former husband of TPR - is called captain for this reason.

tac

interestingly two members of the italian team that won the Aga Khan trophy last week were italian army but they were enlisted not officers. which i thought was a bit odd.

tac foley

Why is that odd? In most armies enlisted men outnumber officers, oh, let's say fifteen to one. In the British Army there a goodly number of military personnel who ride horses as part of their ceremonial duties - the Household Cavalry, for example, as well as the King's Troop RHA.

Naturally good hands with a horse do not depend on the rank, but on the person.

tac

ohnonotgmail

tac foley wrote: »

Why is that odd? In most armies enlisted men outnumber officers, oh, let's say fifteen to one. In the British Army there a goodly number of military personnel who ride horses as part of their ceremonial duties - the Household Cavalry, for example, as well as the King's Troop RHA.

Naturally good hands with a horse do not depend on the rank, but on the person.

tac

well we're not talking about cavalry troopers. that not the same thing at all. Even the example you gave for the british army equitation team was a captain.
I was just basing it on what i know of our equitation team. they always seem to be officers. must be just an Irish thing.

tac foley

Every soldier who gets up on a horse as part of his military duties has to attend the Army School of Equitation and learn by falling off. Anybody who shows a natural bent for riding is encouraged to become competitive in the sport. I'll do a bit of digging around and see who's who and let you know.

However, I was unaware that the PDF actually had ANY mounted ceremonial troops like the British do, apart from the mounted trumpeter I recall seeing as a child in Dublin . The Household Cavalry, of course, has a routine need to train horsemen - officers AND enlisted, and this must be part of why some people actually join the Household Cavalry in the fust place. Needless to say, the British Army has a number of cavalry regiments, in tanks these days, but with a long tradition of going into battle on horses - many of the British Army's teams have had personnel from the numerous cavelry regiments where horses are part of the landscape.

tac

ohnonotgmail

tac foley wrote: »

Every soldier who gets up on a horse as part of his military duties has to attend the Army School of Equitation and learn by falling off. Anybody who shows a natural bent for riding is encouraged to become competitive in the sport. I'll do a bit of digging around and see who's who and let you know.

However, I was unaware that the PDF actually had ANY mounted ceremonial troops like the British do, apart from the mounted trumpeter I recall seeing as a child in Dublin . The Household Cavalry, of course, has a routine need to train horsemen - officers AND enlisted, and this must be part of why some people actually join the Household Cavalry in the fust place. Needless to say, the British Army has a number of cavalry regiments, in tanks these days, but with a long tradition of going into battle on horses - many of the British Army's teams have had personnel from the numerous cavelry regiments where horses are part of the landscape.

tac

we dont have dual-role cavalry so we dont need an equitation school that trains cavalry. Our equitation school seems to concentrate on equestrian competitions. All our riders seem to be officers as well. http://www.military.ie/education-hq/equitation-school/riding-officer-profiles/

gizmo555

tac foley wrote: »

However, I was unaware that the PDF actually had ANY mounted ceremonial troops like the British do. . .

Not since 1949, when the "Blue Hussars" were disbanded.

tac foley

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

we dont have dual-role cavalry so we dont need an equitation school that trains cavalry. Our equitation school seems to concentrate on equestrian competitions. All our riders seem to be officers as well.

Hmmm, hardly the egalitarianism one expects of a Republic.:rolleyes:

Only kidding.

Anyhow, only the Household Division - Blues and Royals - actually carry out the ceremonial bit, all the other donkey wallopers just do the usual leisure time horsey stuff - hunting, p2p hacking and so on, like the rest of us hoi-polloi.

Remember that the household division are also real soldiers with real soldiery skills. CoH Craig Harrison of the Blues and Royals earned himself the title of the world's longest effective sniper in A'stan back in 2009, plotzing a machine-gun team of talibs at about 2.5 Km with his trusty .338LM.

tac

ohnonotgmail

tac foley wrote: »

Hmmm, hardly the egalitarianism one expects of a Republic.:rolleyes:

Only kidding.

Anyhow, only the Household Division - Blues and Royals - actually carry out the ceremonial bit, all the other donkey wallopers just do the usual leisure time horsey stuff - hunting, p2p hacking and so on, like the rest of us hoi-polloi.

Remember that the household division are also real soldiers with real soldiery skills. CoH Craig Harrison of the Blues and Royals earned himself the title of the world's longest effective sniper in A'stan back in 2009, plotzing a machine-gun team of talibs at about 2.5 Km with his trusty .338LM.

tac

From horseback? impressive

Manic Moran

Until the 1952 Olympics, one had to be an officer and a gentleman in order to partake in the equestrian events. Obviously, since then, the rules changed. However, it is now rare for uniformed soldiers to partake in such events. Ireland always struck me as being the only team to regularly have participants in uniform, and I believe for a few years may have been the only military to do so. (As opposed to having military riders in their civilian persona)

earlytobed

I always thought it strange that a the Equitation School, has a full Colonel as CO and a Sergeant Major even though it's about Company size

Barry Badrinath

earlytobed wrote: »

I always thought it strange that a the Equitation School, has a full Colonel as CO and a Sergeant Major even though it's about Company size

Huh?

John_D80

earlytobed wrote: »

I always thought it strange that a the Equitation School, has a full Colonel as CO and a Sergeant Major even though it's about Company size

Probably closer to platoon size. Still though, your point is just as invalid :-)

tac foley

MM - I had the choice of being an officer OR a gentleman. In the end, and after a lot of thinking, I decided to be an officer. I always tried to be polite in my dealings with other people, and that's about a gentlemanly as it got.

Never ridden a horse, though. Them things got NO brakes, y'know?

tac

4ensic15

earlytobed wrote: »

I always thought it strange that a the Equitation School, has a full Colonel as CO and a Sergeant Major even though it's about Company size

It doesn't have a full Colonel as CO. Itr has a half Colonel.
http://www.theirishfield.ie/lt-col-freyne-takes-charge-at-army-equitation-school-210216/

Stovepipe

The DF would sacrifice anything except the "Pony Club". Personally, I think it's alleged value to the State is dubious; the average stud farm probably contributes more in taxes and the State probably gets more from the races at the Curragh....it's like the Cav. The DF never had any Cavalry tradition yet our armoured car operators wear a funny hat and refer to themselves as Troopers. A tradition based on nothing.

realitykeeper

Markcheese wrote: »

Is it actually any use to the army ?? Great as they are.. Apart from a heritage thing... could the the money be better spent else where...
Or is it just something the governent wants and ups the budget by that amount..

I think the army should be given more pay and training to play scabs and break strike action in certain parts of the civil service/public sector but they should not be sent on foreign assignments that have no benefit to Ireland.

John_D80

realitykeeper wrote: »

I think the army should be given more pay and training to play scabs and break strike action in certain parts of the civil service/public sector but they should not be sent on foreign assignments that have no benefit to Ireland.

And which foreign assignments would you see as having no benefit to Ireland?

Markcheese

realitykeeper wrote:

I think the army should be given more pay and training to play scabs and break strike action in certain parts of the civil service/public sector but they should not be sent on foreign assignments that have no benefit to Ireland.

Yeah , and someone think of the horses :-)

earlytobed

4ensic15 wrote: »

It doesn't have a full Colonel as CO. Itr has a half Colonel.
http://www.theirishfield.ie/lt-col-freyne-takes-charge-at-army-equitation-school-210216/

It did in the 90's when I was serving, must have changed since,

4ensic15

earlytobed wrote: »

It did in the 90's when I was serving, must have changed since,

That was then, this is now.

realitykeeper

John_D80 wrote: »

And which foreign assignments would you see as having no benefit to Ireland?

All of them. Sure they get more pay for foreign assignments but it it would be better if they got more pay for domestic assignments instead. Apart from potential goodwill, it is difficult to see any gains to be got from foreign assignments. Besides, resentment and hostility toward Ireland from such missions are just as likely as goodwill.

Heraldoffreeent

realitykeeper wrote: »

I think the army should be given more pay and training to play scabs and break strike action in certain parts of the civil service/public sector but they should not be sent on foreign assignments that have no benefit to Ireland.

realitykeeper wrote: »

All of them. Sure they get more pay for foreign assignments but it it would be better if they got more pay for domestic assignments instead. Apart from potential goodwill, it is difficult to see any gains to be got from foreign assignments. Besides, resentment and hostility toward Ireland from such missions are just as likely as goodwill.

And this is relevant to why we have an equitation school or not, in what way exactly?

John_D80

realitykeeper wrote: »

All of them. Sure they get more pay for foreign assignments but it it would be better if they got more pay for domestic assignments instead. Apart from potential goodwill, it is difficult to see any gains to be got from foreign assignments. Besides, resentment and hostility toward Ireland from such missions are just as likely as goodwill.

You managed to be so vague and broad that you didn't really answer the question or even give examples of what you are trying to say.

With regard to your point about pay, you do know that for most overseas missions undertaken by the Defence Forces, the majority bill/cost is footed by agencies/organisations such as the UN etc, don't you? Not all I'll admit, but most.

Personally myself I have seen first hand the gains gotten from foreign assignments in the countless lives that have been safeguarded by the good work overseas of Irish men and women. Ask the thousdands of people that were pulled out of the Mediteranean recently by my comrades in the Naval Service.

Oh but wait, did you mean that because we as a nation (ie: you) don't directly benefit then we should just let those less fortunate than us to starve/die/be persecuted? **delete as appropriate**

And for your info, resentment/hostility towards Ireland as a nation is nowhere near as likely as gratitude and goodwill.

We as a civilised, democratic nation are so fortunate to have the means at our disposal (ie: our defence forces) to assist those less fortunate in their time of need and we have a duty and responsibility to do just that whenever and wherever we can.

Anywho, did somebody say something about horses? Apologies for going OT.

ezra_

Stovepipe wrote: »

The DF would sacrifice anything except the "Pony Club". Personally, I think it's alleged value to the State is dubious; the average stud farm probably contributes more in taxes and the State probably gets more from the races at the Curragh....it's like the Cav. The DF never had any Cavalry tradition yet our armoured car operators wear a funny hat and refer to themselves as Troopers. A tradition based on nothing.

It made a bit more sense back in the day when they only used Irish horses (and by this I mean Irish breeds of horses, not something like a warmblood that was birthed here).

Now, they use all sorts of horses so they no longer act as a showcase.

Don't know how much it costs, but it is a pretty cool thing to have. If the money could have a meaningful impact somewhere else, then maybe can it. If the saving s would have little effect on the DF, keep it.

realitykeeper

John_D80 wrote: »

You managed to be so vague and broad that you didn't really answer the question or even give examples of what you are trying to say.

With regard to your point about pay, you do know that for most overseas missions undertaken by the Defence Forces, the majority bill/cost is footed by agencies/organisations such as the UN etc, don't you? Not all I'll admit, but most.

Personally myself I have seen first hand the gains gotten from foreign assignments in the countless lives that have been safeguarded by the good work overseas of Irish men and women. Ask the thousdands of people that were pulled out of the Mediteranean recently by my comrades in the Naval Service.

Oh but wait, did you mean that because we as a nation (ie: you) don't directly benefit then we should just let those less fortunate than us to starve/die/be persecuted? **delete as appropriate**

And for your info, resentment/hostility towards Ireland as a nation is nowhere near as likely as gratitude and goodwill.

We as a civilised, democratic nation are so fortunate to have the means at our disposal (ie: our defence forces) to assist those less fortunate in their time of need and we have a duty and responsibility to do just that whenever and wherever we can.

Anywho, did somebody say something about horses? Apologies for going OT.

Risking the lives of Irish personnel cannot be justified for these foreign assignments. The UN contribution cannot replace a lost life or limb and from a business perspective, it is the height of stupidity to send the defense forces abroad simply because of a stipend from the UN. The totality of the cost cannot be justified.

As for the rescue missions in the med, I think it is not the best use of resources but the reasons are too long, complicated and off topic to include here.

I would be inclined to favor abandoning the Irish equestrian team on the grounds that the private sector are capable of representing Ireland in that sport at no cost to the taxpayer.

It wasn't me!

The whole concern of soldiering is overseas service. That's where you learn the lessons that focus the training you do at home. Even without the "stipend" from the UN, in order for the defence forces to retain and enhance capabilities, it's vital that we maintain troops overseas.

pablomakaveli

I swear if some people on boards had their way our army would consist of 5 lads with wooden rifles who'd have to shout "BANG BANG" everytime they fired and who wouldnt be allowed out of the shed that would be our new Defence HQ in case they incur any costs for travel.:rolleyes:

DanMurphy

pablomakaveli wrote: »

I swear if some people on boards had their way our army would consist of 5 lads with wooden rifles who'd have to shout "BANG BANG" everytime they fired and who wouldnt be allowed out of the shed that would be our new Defence HQ in case they incur any costs for travel.:rolleyes:

'Tis nothing new Pablo.
If such people did their homework they'd find that our Military UN Service costs this State nothing, in fact it's a great little money-spinner for the Government. It simply 'kills' some folks that our soldiers are so highly regarded the world over since our UN Service began in the late 1950s. Highly thought of everywhere, except Ireland.

Reminds me of a newspaper advert when I was a (half starved) Army recruit in the Curragh in the mid 1960s.

'FOR SALE' small potatoes. Fit for pigs or Army use.'

They went down well with the horse-meat.

Only the best for our boys in uniform...not
:D:D:D

realitykeeper

It wasn't me! wrote: »

The whole concern of soldiering is overseas service. That's where you learn the lessons that focus the training you do at home. Even without the "stipend" from the UN, in order for the defence forces to retain and enhance capabilities, it's vital that we maintain troops overseas.

... or to put it another way "armies don`t exist for peace" to quote Hitler. There is nothing that can be learned abroad that cannot be learned in Ireland. Most wheat consumed in this country has to be imported, we don`t all go abroad every time we want a sandwich or a bowl of cornflakes.

It wasn't me!

realitykeeper wrote: »

... or to put it another way "armies don`t exist for peace" to quote Hitler. There is nothing that can be learned abroad that cannot be learned in Ireland. Most wheat consumed in this country has to be imported, we don`t all go abroad every time we want a sandwich or a bowl of cornflakes.

If you think that's an appropriate analogy I'm not prepared to engage with you.

realitykeeper

It wasn't me! wrote: »

If you think that's an appropriate analogy I'm not prepared to engage with you.

Why does this not surprise me. One can have narrow constrained thought patterns or one can think outside the box and beyond the status quo. I find conventional wisdom to be despairingly ubiquitous in this country.

arybvtcw0eolkf

It wasn't me! wrote: »

If you think that's an appropriate analogy I'm not prepared to engage with you.

I was wondering why you bothered in the first place.

I've learned to ignore people like that, you won't change their thoughts and opinions. They'll never experience what we who have served have experienced.

I just don't bother my hole with them.

realitykeeper

Noa Harsh Net wrote: »

They'll never experience what we who have served have experienced.

Self pity is such a waste of time. You`ve come to the wrong shop for sympathy brother. I recommend work to cheer you up. Do something productive.

ohnonotgmail

realitykeeper wrote: »

... or to put it another way "armies don`t exist for peace" to quote Hitler. There is nothing that can be learned abroad that cannot be learned in Ireland. Most wheat consumed in this country has to be imported, we don`t all go abroad every time we want a sandwich or a bowl of cornflakes.

Presumably you can substantiate this claim based on your vast experience?

arybvtcw0eolkf

realitykeeper wrote: »

Self pity is such a waste of time. You`ve come to the wrong shop for sympathy brother. I recommend work to cheer you up. Do something productive.

Yea, save me the bullshit.

There's a saying in the army, you're hardly worth repeating it for but I will.

It goes;

"If you're looking for sympathy you'll find it somewhere between shit & syphilis in the dictionary", and I've certainly not looked for it here or anywhere else in the last thirty one years of my service both at home and abroad.

So IMO you can take your bleeding hearted, left wing, hippy hysterical crap & shove it where the sun don't shine

realitykeeper

Noa Harsh Net wrote: »

Yea, save me the bullshit.

There's a saying in the army, you're hardly worth repeating it for but I will.

It goes;

"If you're looking for sympathy you'll find it somewhere between shit & syphilis in the dictionary", and I've certainly not looked for it here or anywhere else in the last thirty one years of my service both at home and abroad.

So IMO you can take your bleeding hearted, left wing, hippy hysterical crap & shove it where the sun don't shine

Sounds like you are having a hard time re-integrating to civilized society ... but here is a piece of advice from that old Shirley Temple song: You`ve got to S-M-I-L-E to be H-A-P-P-Y