Ford Puma and rust

boardsuser1

Hi all,

Query for anyone in the know regarding the above.

God a ford puma from a family member. Car was parked up well over a year. Long story short it is mechanically 110%.

However with most puma's she has rust. The pictures attached are the worst of it. Would these get through???

N.B car is a uk import,it came here after 5 years in the uk.

boardsuser1

More here

Toyotafanboi

A lot of that is cosmetic enough. I'd say you're in trouble with those back arches though.

Mycroft H

It depends. Question is, what's it like underneath. If that's what we can see on the surface, he'll be poking with a probe underneath. What's the rear arches like underneath?

boardsuser1

Where the spare wheel carrier is there is some just above it. However the spare wheel itself is blocking it. You need to actually take the wheel out to see it. It appears solid otherwise. I'll jack it up after and take photos. I can get the arches sorted by a friend of mine. Luckily the car isn't metallic.

boardsuser1

Mycroft H wrote: »

It depends. Question is, what's it like underneath. If that's what we can see on the surface, he'll be poking with a probe underneath. What's the rear arches like underneath?

No corrosion on rear arches underneath. Just the same as the surface.

boardsuser1

Mycroft H wrote: »

It depends. Question is, what's it like underneath. If that's what we can see on the surface, he'll be poking with a probe underneath. What's the rear arches like underneath?

Just had a look underneath. The right rear is the only area with rust .

2 photos same spot.

sogood

KC161 wrote: »

Hi all,

Query for anyone in the know regarding the above.

God a ford puma from a family member. Car was parked up well over a year. Long story short it is mechanically 110%.

However with most puma's she has rust. The pictures attached are the worst of it. Would these get through???

N.B car is a uk import,it came here after 5 years in the uk.

Most of that seems to be surface rust. Rust that compromises the structural integrity would certainly be a fail but that doesn't seem to be the case here. I imagine it might pass with an advisory. Just my opinion.

boardsuser1

sogood wrote: »

Most of that seems to be surface rust. Rust that compromises the structural integrity would certainly be a fail but that doesn't seem to be the case here. I imagine it might pass with an advisory. Just my opinion.

Put up one of the underbody. Did you see that? Will see if i can find the rust treatment that stops or at least slows it down. Trying to save it at apart from the few photos i've put up the car is sound.

Bigus

Just the right hand arch is a problem, get the grinder out and fill sand and a grey primer aerosol, will get it through , once it's sound underside of arch.

boardsuser1

Bigus wrote: »

Just the right hand arch is a problem, get the grinder out and fill sand and a grey primer aerosol, will get it through , once it's sound underside of arch.

Underside is sound on all 4 arches. Only the surface. The mileage is 90k which is small for a 15 year old car. My daily driver is 09 focus and has 110k miles. Another that was a uk import.

mgbgt1978

sogood wrote: »

Most of that seems to be surface rust. Rust that compromises the structural integrity would certainly be a fail but that doesn't seem to be the case here. I imagine it might pass with an advisory. Just my opinion.

Unfortunately there is no 'advisory' pass as far as rust is concerned.
The NCT manual simply states that corrosion in certain places is a fail.
It leaves it to the discretion of the Tester on the day, so really a lot of it is down to one person's opinion.

I would guess that if the Tester can see a lot of obvious rust (even where it would not be a Fail) he will look for more.....

Mycroft H

This is it. A hint of rust will have them 'looking' for more. And when I say looking, I mean poking and prodding.

boardsuser1

Mycroft H wrote: »

This is it. A hint of rust will have them 'looking' for more. And when I say looking, I mean poking and prodding.

Prime time springs to mind

Neilw

KC161 wrote: »

Just had a look underneath. The right rear is the only area with rust .

2 photos same spot.

That doesn't look great, you can see the rust starting to split where there is a seam in the metal sill.
Looks to have been painted before, maybe repaired too as there's overspray on the handbrake cable.

I would say there is a fair bit of rust there and some holes if you go poking.

boardsuser1

Neilw wrote: »

That doesn't look great, you can see the rust starting to split where there is a seam in the metal sill.
Looks to have been painted before, maybe repaired too as there's overspray on the handbrake cable.

I would say there is a fair bit of rust there and some holes if you go poking.

That is the worst part. Can't find any holes though. Yes that is indeed paint on the cable.

sogood

mgbgt1978 wrote: »

Unfortunately there is no 'advisory' pass as far as rust is concerned.
The NCT manual simply states that corrosion in certain places is a fail.
It leaves it to the discretion of the Tester on the day, so really a lot of it is down to one person's opinion.

I would guess that if the Tester can see a lot of obvious rust (even where it would not be a Fail) he will look for more.....

My bad. Thought there was the possibility that a tester might pass the likes of that but "advise" that it should be dealt with, sooner rather than later. Thanks for the clarification.

boardsuser1

sogood wrote: »

My bad. Thought there was the possibility that a tester might pass the likes of that but "advise" that it should be dealt with, sooner rather than later. Thanks for the clarification.

I've been looking at some rust stories here on boards.

It seems there are worse cases thsn my own and repairs aren't (hugely) expensive.

Will fire it in for the nct and let them tell me before i do anything to it.

millington

That sill is rotten and the arch too. I'd say you'd push your hand through either.

boardsuser1

millington wrote: »

That sill is rotten and the arch too. I'd say you'd push your hand through either.

Put a good bit of force on the arch and it was fine. The sill isn't breaking away when poked (yet) nct next week so i'll let them decide.

Wibbs

Neilw wrote: »

That doesn't look great, you can see the rust starting to split where there is a seam in the metal sill.
Looks to have been painted before, maybe repaired too as there's overspray on the handbrake cable.

I would say there is a fair bit of rust there and some holes if you go poking.

Aye the sill looks pretty bad. Bubbling means the corrosion is all the way through the metal. Rust is like an iceberg, most of it is under the surface. If you want to hang onto the car for any length of time I'd be attacking that and properly. The "rustkiller" stuff? Unless it is literally surface rust it is at best a temporary measure. Even the best of it only penetrates the barest gee hair of the rust sealing it in for a time, but it's eating away underneath. Chopping it out and welding in new sound steel is your only man. Can get pricey mind you so if you're only hanging onto the car for maybe another year…

millington

To be honest unless the car has sentimental value I wouldn't bother repairing it. It looks pretty bad overall and will only get worse. Pumas aren't worth a whole pile, surely be easier to buy a good one.

boardsuser1

No sentimental value regarding the car. However i do know its history and it was kept well until parked up last year. The next door neighbour is a panel beater and does foxers so depending on what the nct say i'll consider asking him to cut out the rot. The sill while appearing to look bad isn't crumbling away as yet. I bought the car for a nomimal fee as the previous owner is in poor health.

boardsuser1

The joys of an english imported Ford puma.Opinions on photos welcome as my knowledge is limited. However from reading elsewhere the whole corrosion issue tends to be OTT in those reports

boardsuser1

Corrosion right on the chassis number as seen

Neilw

I don't think it's ott if you can see the ground through a rust hole.

There's too much work involved in saving that car.

boardsuser1

Neilw wrote: »

I don't think it's ott if you can see the ground through a rust hole.

There's too much work involved in saving that car.

That hole aside it seems to be. The hole was caused by a screwdriver the tester used to ram it as it wasn't there this morning.Just as a guesstimate what would all that work cost? The corrosion that is. The rest i can do myself. Worst case scenario i might use it as spares. The front end rot is actually the wings themselves.

Wibbs

Neilw wrote: »

There's too much work involved in saving that car.

Id agree TBH. Unless it was a rare 1950's Alfa or somesuch. That's just the rust you can see. There will be more spreading underneath panels, along seams, edges and inside closed box sections. That's where rust usually starts. Seams and edges have less paint coverage(and welds) and box sections are humid also with less paint, so when you finally see it on the outside it's often too far gone. UK cars with their bloody winter salt really speeds this up. The salt is being used more here now too , after those hard winters a few years back where they ran out of grit.

boardsuser1

Wibbs wrote: »

Id agree TBH. Unless it was a rare 1950's Alfa or somesuch. That's just the rust you can see. There will be more spreading underneath panels, along seams, edges and inside closed box sections. That's where rust usually starts. Seams and edges have less paint coverage(and welds) and box sections are humid also with less paint, so when you finally see it on the outside it's often too far gone. UK cars with their bloody winter salt really speeds this up. The salt is being used more here now too , after those hard winters a few years back where they ran out of grit.

The tester said that a combination of salt and Ford's problem with rust are possibly the reason. The next door neighbour is aware of the car and said he'll give it a good once over on the inspection ramp as he said it'd be a pity to scrap it. But even if it were repaired we'd be back to square one due to the irish roads being salted in about 5 years.

boardsuser1

Update on this, I've had the car in dry storage ever since the NCT.

Had a friends father look at it last night who worked for Ford in Cork for decades as a panel beater.

He said the chassis of the car is fine, it was the sealant that was bubbling making it look like corrosion.

Is it really possible for the NCT inspector to get something like this so wrong?

Everything else was spot on otherwise, those being mechanical issues, brake shoes and an abs sensor.

for the cosmetic stuff not on the outside I'd sand & rustprrof with Kurust or some such stuff.

boardsuser1

Augeo wrote: »

for the cosmetic stuff not on the outside I'd sand & rustprrof with Kurust or some such stuff.

Yeah the outside is being sanded and rustproofed.

Underneath Is where I am baffled. a man who rebuilt those cars from scratch said the chassis is fine, the NCT inspector said it's not. i'm no expert.

They marked it with the yellow marker and he even pulled off the paint where that was to prove it.

KC161

KC161 wrote: »

Update on this, I've had the car in dry storage ever since the NCT.

Had a friends father look at it last night who worked for Ford in Cork for decades as a panel beater.

He said the chassis of the car is fine, it was the sealant that was bubbling making it look like corrosion.

Is it really possible for the NCT inspector to get something like this so wrong?

Everything else was spot on otherwise, those being mechanical issues, brake shoes and an abs sensor.

I wouldn't rate either's opinion overly highly tbh but without seeing the car and going off what's been shown in this topic the ex Ford lad is well off the mark.

You're not going to put a scredriver through non corroded metal ............ bubbling sealant speel makes little sense.

boardsuser1

Augeo wrote: »

I wouldn't rate either's opinion overly highly tbh but without seeing the car and going off what's been shown in this topic the ex Ford lad is well off the mark.

You're not going to put a scredriver through non corroded metal ............ bubbling sealant speel makes little sense.

The screwdriver through the metal is the only weak point underneath he said. I'll have to put it on a ramp and take proper photos.

Wibbs

Augeo wrote: »

I wouldn't rate either's opinion overly highly tbh but without seeing the car and going off what's been shown in this topic the ex Ford lad is well off the mark.

+1. The car is clearly rusting through the metal in the arches and worse along the bottom of the sill where it's both bubbling and delaminating.

boardsuser1

Wibbs wrote: »

+1. The car is clearly rusting through the metal in the arches and worse along the bottom of the sill where it's both bubbling and delaminating.

The bottom sill where the rust is on the wing?

I have wings gotten for it.

Wibbs

KC161 wrote: »

The bottom sill where the rust is on the wing?

I have wings gotten for it.

This pic KC https://us.v-cdn.net/6034073/uploads/attachments/735011/391979.jpg Looks like the inner panels are involved too?

boardsuser1

Wibbs wrote: »

This pic KC https://us.v-cdn.net/6034073/uploads/attachments/735011/391979.jpg Looks like the inner panels are involved too?

Yes apologies, that is being cut and having new steel fitted.

The NCT never done it for that piece though.

I just posted the bad bits.

boardsuser1

Here are 2 new pictures of the same area on the chassis rail I think.

I've been told this is paint bubbling.

That water has gotten between the steel and paint.

This from the same person as a few days ago.

The sills aside everything else is sorted.

Neilw

That's bad corrosion in a bad spot, you can be sure that it has spread.
The axle mount is very close and I wouldn't be surprised if it has been weakened too.

Your Ford friend doesn't seem to be as knowledgeable as he thinks.

boardsuser1

Neilw wrote: »

That's bad corrosion in a bad spot, you can be sure that it has spread.
The axle mount is very close and I wouldn't be surprised if it has been weakened too.

Your Ford friend doesn't seem to be as knowledgeable as he thinks.

Definitely corrosion?

I have zero knowledge in this area.

That photo was taken today.

Wibbs

KC161 wrote: »

Definitely corrosion?

Yep KC, definitely corrosion. Quite a bit of surface which is not so much an issue, but it's penetrated below the surface in a few spots(the darker patches) and it looks pretty corroded from the pictures.

boardsuser1

Wibbs wrote: »

Yep KC, definitely corrosion. Quite a bit of surface which is not so much an issue, but it's penetrated below the surface in a few spots(the darker patches) and it looks pretty corroded from the pictures.

Cheers lads, I'll hand her in to be done this week. That was the last picture I had to post on the corrosion issue.

Both front wings were changed.

Both arches ground back, treated with rust stopper and filled/primed.

Just the underbody left.

That photo is situated next to the petrol tank at the left rear wheel.

Neilw

That whole section needs to be inspected.

The rear beam would need to be removed and I would say that whole section of floor cut out until clean metal is found, then fresh metal welded in.
Sorry to say but I think this car is a lost cause.

punisher5112

Its definitely not worth it as more issues will arise.

boardsuser1

Neilw wrote: »

That whole section needs to be inspected.

The rear beam would need to be removed and I would say that whole section of floor cut out until clean metal is found, then fresh metal welded in.
Sorry to say but I think this car is a lost cause.

The quote I got was respectable considering I had a Subaru Impreza front end rebuilt in 2006 at a cost of €1500

The Puma's work is about 60/70% less of that price. I've had it looked at by several different garages, none have said it is beyond it.

Mind you all Ford's rust.

The AlfaSud of their day.

mikeoneilly

NCT needs to harmonise the rust and corrosion checks

There's massive variance from one tester to another

boardsuser1

mikeoneilly wrote: »

NCT needs to harmonise the rust and corrosion checks

There's massive variance from one tester to another

Happened me with a fiat years ago.

I failed on corrosion, did nothing to the car bar cleaned up the area with a wire brush, the "corrosion" was holes built into the chassis of the car when new.

Car passed.

The centre where I brought it to featured on prime time I found out afterwards.

mikeoneilly

KC161 wrote: »

Happened me with a fiat years ago.

I failed on corrosion, did nothing to the car bar cleaned up the area with a wire brush, the "corrosion" was holes built into the chassis of the car when new.

Car passed.

The centre where I brought it to featured on prime time I found out afterwards.

Yep

I've seen major discrepancies over the short term in test results

It's not like rust and corrosion is rocket science or anything

How well trained are the testers in this area?

Jimmy Garlic

mikeoneilly wrote: »

NCT needs to harmonise the rust and corrosion checks

There's massive variance from one tester to another

I know haha.. I had a 96 Passat that passed with well rotten sills. Chanced it and it passed. Welded the sills after the test.

boardsuser1

Jimmy Garlic wrote: »

I know haha.. I had a 96 Passat that passed with well rotten sills. Chanced it and it passed. Welded the sills after the test.

What was the cost of welding the sills or did you do it yourself?