I leave the car parked in first gear, but it stutters forward once now ...

worded

This is a bit unnerving and one never noticed this before on any other car one owned

I've done this first gear parking for 20 + years in different cars with no problem.
The reason is to avoid hand break failure and the car rolling away on a hill for example

I'm wondering are the gears going on this car or some other problem?

So I Power off the car
Put in first gear
All ok until the car seems to stutter forward ...
Panic
Engage hand break

Unusually I on off on hand break to make sure it's in gear / safe beofre I lock the car

punisher5112

What car and mileage and condition

CiniO

It it's a steep hill or small engine comparing to car weight, it might stutter forward a bit on 1st gear.

Mongfinder General

That car must be seriously whipped, a total ****box.

shietpilot

Quite normal with a small engine and steep hill. A lightweight engine is pretty easy to spin if it has to hold the weight of the car on a steep hill.

Esel

Why not use the handbrake as well?

Or put the car in reverse - it can't roll up the hill....

worded

2.0 Honda Accord petrol mileage - 80k approx

I suspect the gears are going

worded

Esel wrote: »

Why not use the handbrake as well?

Or put the car in reverse - it can't roll up the hill....

I always use both
I shouldn't need to use reverse, first should do the job

RustyNut

Much more likely to be the handbrake failing than the gearbox.

CiniO

worded wrote: »

2.0 Honda Accord petrol mileage - 80k approx

I suspect the gears are going

Is it steep hill you park it on?

CiniO

Esel wrote: »

Why not use the handbrake as well?

Or put the car in reverse - it can't roll up the hill....

If engine is letting the car roll in 1st, it might as well let it roll in reverse.
No difference which direction engine is turning - resistance should be the same.

worded

It's not hand break failure, it stutters forward with the hand break off as a test

Never noticed this beofre on over 5 cars

As a kid I was near a car that rolled down a hill after a woman didn't engage the hand brake properly or it failed. It rolled into a shop window and could have killed a few people

Cee-Jay-Cee

worded wrote: »

It's not hand break failure, it stutters forward with the hand break off as a test

Never noticed this beofre on over 5 cars

As a kid I was near a car that rolled down a hill after a woman didn't engage the hand brake properly or it failed. It rolled into a shop window and could have killed a few people

Why are you testing it??? Put the handbrake on and then put the car in first gear as a back up. Your not doing the gearbox or clutch any favours by putting a load on them for no reason. It seems you've developed a bit of an obsessive habit for no apparent reason and you are damaging your car as a result.

If the handbrake doesn't hold the car on a hill then get it fixed.

CiniO

Cee-Jay-Cee wrote: »

Why are you testing it??? Put the handbrake on and then put the car in first gear as a back up. Your not doing the gearbox or clutch any favours by putting a load on them for no reason. It seems you've developed a bit of an obsessive habit for no apparent reason and you are damaging your car as a result.

Damaging?

What is damaging in leaving a car on gear to hold it on a hill

Are you saying that forces are so big that it could affect clutch or engine or gearbox? come on.....

dr.fuzzenstein

CiniO wrote: »

Damaging?

What is damaging in leaving a car on gear to hold it on a hill

Are you saying that forces are so big that it could affect clutch or engine or gearbox? come on.....

Maybe not damaging, but definitely not best practice.

shietpilot

Ah it won't do any harm at all. It's not like the clutch is slipping. You do far more damage taking off from the lights at a junction.

CJhaughey

I don't think parking in gear will damage a gearbox, however if a car is in gear and someone gives it a shunt while parking thats a whole lot of force going through the gearbox and it will cause damage.

If the car is in gear and is rolling forwards what is happening is that the engine is turning over the same as if you were jumpstarting the car.
Try just using the handbrake and see how that works for you, if you are parked facing uphill and want peace of mind turn the wheel clockwise slightly so the wheels will run back against the kerb if the handbrake fails, if facing downhill then anticlockwise so the car will run to the kerb.
I can understand why people do it and I have done it on occasion on very steep hills, but for moderate hills the handbrake should hold the car fine, no need to keep it in gear.
Don't forget there is usually quite a bit of freeplay between the clutch and gearbox and the engine coming up to compression.

corglass

If you insist on using both here's a step by step process that won't have the car lurching forward.


1. Stop car with foot brake and clutch down (keep pressed)
2. Turn off car
3. Engage handbrake
4. Put in first
5. Release clutch and brake

corglass

If you insist on using both here's a step by step process that won't have the car lurching forward.


1. Stop car with foot brake and clutch down (keep pressed)
2. Turn off car
3. Engage handbrake
4. Put in first
5. Release clutch and brake

grogi

worded wrote: »

2.0 Honda Accord petrol mileage - 80k approx

I suspect the gears are going

Not the gears.

Compression is gone or (although unlikely - one would not be able to drive it) a clutch...

grogi

Cee-Jay-Cee wrote: »

Why are you testing it??? Put the handbrake on and then put the car in first gear as a back up. Your not doing the gearbox or clutch any favours by putting a load on them for no reason. It seems you've developed a bit of an obsessive habit for no apparent reason and you are damaging your car as a result.

If the handbrake doesn't hold the car on a hill then get it fixed.

They handle much more during normal driving - a test like that won't do much harm.

Decent Skin

worded wrote: »

I always use both
I shouldn't need to use reverse, first should do the job

Use the opposite to the potential roll; gravity can't break physics to turn the gearbox in reverse!

grogi

Decent Skin wrote: »

Use the opposite to the potential roll; gravity can't break physics to turn the gearbox in reverse!

And why would that be?!

I might be wrong, but it seems pushing the car in the other direction would be even easier. The engine cycle is designed to compress the air when turning forward. When turning backwards the compression might be much smaller.

Decent Skin

grogi wrote: »

And why would that be?!

I might be wrong, but it seems pushing the car in the other direction would be even easier. The engine cycle is designed to compress the air when turning forward. When turning backwards the compression might be much smaller.

You've lost me.

The engine direction only acts through the gearbox, which determines which way the wheels turn.

If the gearbox is set to the opposite of how the car could roll, then it stands to reason that it will be tougher to achieve any movement; a gearbox in reverse would not allow the wheels turn forwards - the car would have to slide. And vice versa.

shietpilot

Decent Skin wrote: »

You've lost me.

The engine direction only acts through the gearbox, which determines which way the wheels turn.

If the gearbox is set to the opposite of how the car could roll, then it stands to reason that it will be tougher to achieve any movement; a gearbox in reverse would not allow the wheels turn forwards - the car would have to slide. And vice versa.

The engine will spin in reverse.

Cee-Jay-Cee

CiniO wrote: »

Damaging?

What is damaging in leaving a car on gear to hold it on a hill

Are you saying that forces are so big that it could affect clutch or engine or gearbox? come on.....

Ok maybe damaging was the wrong word but unnecessary wear of gear synchros & cogs. The gearbox is not designed to be used as a handbrake otherwise they wouldn't have bothered fitting a handbrake.

I leave my car parked in gear but the handbrake is on full first so the gearbox is not taking any of the load, it's just a back up safety.

Like I said if the handbrake won't hold the car on a hill then get it fixed.

grogi

Cee-Jay-Cee wrote: »

Ok maybe damaging was the wrong word but unnecessary wear of gear synchros & cogs. The gearbox is not designed to be used as a handbrake otherwise they wouldn't have bothered fitting a handbrake.

I leave my car parked in gear but the handbrake is on full first so the gearbox is not taking any of the load, it's just a back up safety.

Like I said if the handbrake won't hold the car on a hill then get it fixed.

A car with weight of 1000kg, on a 30* hill, engaged in 1st gear (ratio 4.0, final ratio 4.0) on 60cm wheels (205/55/R17) generates approximately:
* torque of 1.5kNm at the wheels
* torque of 90 Nm at the crankshaft.

30* is REALLY steep hill, and 90Nm is less than any automotive engine is capable of producing.

In other words - NOT AN ISSUE.

If I have lost one ratio in between, feel free to correct me...

Decent Skin

shietpilot wrote: »

The engine will spin in reverse.

Really ? :eek:

Learnt something new today!

So if - hypothetically - you went forwards up a very steep hill, the stall point isn't an endpoint, and the hill would reverse the engine ?

_Kaiser_

Alternative option...

Buy an automatic.. none of these problems P locks the transmission and you have the handbrake as well.

When one of the calipers in my last Passat started acting up it was very useful as the electronic handbrake couldn't be used until I got it fixed as it wouldn't always release again without a lot of attmpts.

grogi

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

Alternative option...

Buy an automatic.. none of these problems P locks the transmission and you have the handbrake as well.

When one of the calipers in my last Passat started acting up it was very useful as the electronic handbrake couldn't be used until I got it fixed as it wouldn't always release again without a lot of attmpts.

I would be more caution about the P gear in an auto though.

Typically it is implemented as a mechanical tooth that gets engaged on one of the gears... It is easy enough to damage this setup if stressed too much. It might get blocked as well...



The most important thing here is to engage the parting break before release operation brake.

Special Circumstances

Decent Skin wrote: »

Use the opposite to the potential roll; gravity can't break physics to turn the gearbox in reverse!

A big dirty ratchet on it and she clicking away as you go forward, why has nobody implemented this!


edit, haha it looks like an auto trans brake is pretty much a ratchet and pawl, just not always engaged.

grogi

Special Circumstances wrote: »

A big dirty ratchet on it and she clicking away as you go forward, why has nobody implemented this!

I guess with a typical diesel you would not hear it anyway...

FortySeven

worded wrote: »

It's not hand break failure, it stutters forward with the hand break off as a test

Never noticed this beofre on over 5 cars

As a kid I was near a car that rolled down a hill after a woman didn't engage the hand brake properly or it failed. It rolled into a shop window and could have killed a few people

Are you a woman op?

If not I wouldn't worry too much about it.

Special Circumstances

grogi wrote: »

I guess with a typical diesel you would not hear it anyway...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nzx1A5FbDpc

Wossack

grogi wrote: »

A car with weight of 1000kg, on a 30* hill, engaged in 1st gear (ratio 4.0, final ratio 4.0) on 60cm wheels (205/55/R17) generates approximately:
* torque of 1.5kNm at the wheels
* torque of 90 Nm at the crankshaft.

30* is REALLY steep hill, and 90Nm is less than any automotive engine is capable of producing.

In other words - NOT AN ISSUE.

If I have lost one ratio in between, feel free to correct me...

issue imo, is that the car is left in that state for extended periods... manufacturers design engines and gearboxes, and service schedules for same for normal driving behavour. Using the gearbox as the handbrake (and the handbrake as the backup ), is not normal driving behaviour

frozenfrozen

the engine is slightly turning over once when off on a hill? it's just moving from an exhaust stroke to a compression stroke and resting? Nothing to worry about.. but why do it. If you're so afraid of your car running down a hill just turn the wheels into the kerb, apply the handbrake first, and then leave it in gear. No idea why you would let it rest on first gear and then put on the handbrake.

grogi

frozenfrozen wrote: »

the engine is slightly turning over once when off on a hill? it's just moving from an exhaust stroke to a compression stroke and resting? Nothing to worry about.. but why do it. If you're so afraid of your car running down a hill just turn the wheels into the kerb, apply the handbrake first, and then leave it in gear. No idea why you would let it rest on first gear and then put on the handbrake.

Remember that there are four pots... One is always in compression...

porsche boy

Normal. Weight of car is part of the issue here.
Best way to apply this technique is to stop the car, apply handbrake and finally put car into gear. This should offer you the protection of the 'locked box' while having the handbrake actually hold the car. Remember the gear holding the car is a failsafe.

shietpilot

grogi wrote: »

The most important thing here is to engage the parting break before release operation brake.

Or press the clutch pedal after engaging parking brake. The stress will be relieved from the transmission and put onto the parking brake.

Cee-Jay-Cee

grogi wrote: »

A car with weight of 1000kg, on a 30* hill, engaged in 1st gear (ratio 4.0, final ratio 4.0) on 60cm wheels (205/55/R17) generates approximately:
* torque of 1.5kNm at the wheels
* torque of 90 Nm at the crankshaft.

30* is REALLY steep hill, and 90Nm is less than any automotive engine is capable of producing.

In other words - NOT AN ISSUE.

If I have lost one ratio in between, feel free to correct me...

I applaud you on your ability to calculate forces etc. well done, however, regardless of how little force is being applied, the gearbox is NOT designed to be used as a handbrake to hold the car on a hill. The OP's handbrake obviously isn't working if the car rolls forward and 'catches' in gear when 'parked' on an incline.

shietpilot

Cee-Jay-Cee wrote: »

I applaud you on your ability to calculate forces etc. well done, however, regardless of how little force is being applied, the gearbox is NOT designed to be used as a handbrake to hold the car on a hill. The OP's handbrake obviously isn't working if the car rolls forward and 'catches' in gear when 'parked' on an incline.

Well the gearbox gets the same kind of forces during driving, so naturally it is capable of holding the car.

serarra

Where did you guys learn to drive? :-D

When parking on a incline, you MUST leave the car on gear. If the gravity will pull the car forward, leave the car in reverse. If the gravity will pull it backwards, leave it in first gear. Then, point the wheels towards the kerb, so if the car moves, it will hit it and get stuck (if you point the wheels straight, or towards the center of the road, and something happens, you have a runaway vehicle)
Of course, on top of the handbrake.
First or reverse is so the engine does not turns backwards if it moves, because that will create havock with timing belts, tensioners, etc. (Not with the pistons, crankshaft,etc themselves)

grogi

serarra wrote: »

When parking on a incline, you MUST leave the car on gear. If the gravity will pull the car forward, leave the car in reverse.

You meant the other way round, didn't you?

Special Circumstances

serarra wrote: »

Where did you guys learn to drive? :-D

When parking on a incline, you MUST leave the car on gear. If the gravity will pull the car forward, leave the car in reverse. If the gravity will pull it backwards, leave it in first gear.............
First or reverse is so the engine does not turns backwards if it moves, because that will create havock with timing belts, tensioners, etc.

If your car is moving forward,
and the gearbox is in reverse,
which way is the engine moving?

Or to put it another way.... if you push start a car in a forward gear, are you rotating the engine in the normal way or backwards way?

Special Circumstances

grogi wrote: »

You meant the other way round, didn't you?

pffft, where did YOU learn to drive?????

Cheensbo

Some experts in here


You should put your indicator stalk to the left & wipers on high speed too, stops it rolling sideways.

grogi

Special Circumstances wrote: »

pffft, where did YOU learn to drive?????;)

I am pretty sure that by now you can make an educated guess...

serarra

Special Circumstances wrote: »

pffft, where did YOU learn to drive?????

Exactly

It is right, downhill, reverse, so engine will still move forward.
And don't forget wheels pointing towards kerb / side of the road, so even if everything fails, car will only move forward a little as it will hit the kerb or ditch or whatever.

Speedwell

I've been driving for 30+ years, but I only learned to drive a manual last year after I moved to Ireland. (Back in 1983, Dad told me, "oh, all cars will be automatic within 5 years so I'm not going to bother teaching you stick shift".) My driving instructor in Ireland told me that if I am parking a car facing UP a hill, the car would roll backward if anything happened to the hand brake, so I needed to put the car in a forward gear (first gear for preference) and turn the wheels to point AWAY from the curb so the car would be directed into the curb if it was moving backwards. In the same way, if I am parking facing DOWN a hill, the car would roll forward if the hand brake lost control, so I would want to put the car in reverse gear and turn the wheels to face the curb. This makes perfect sense to me from a mechanical and physical perspective and I am not understanding why it is so debatable. I am also now afraid of most of the drivers in Ireland. More than I was before, I mean.

grogi

serarra wrote: »

Exactly

It is right, downhill, reverse, so engine will still move forward.

Now stop the car...
Start the engine... Still running forward...
Reverse gear...

Which way do the wheels rotate?!

Special Circumstances

This is quality friday stuff!

Serrara, speedwell,
Driving along, in a forward gear.
Lift off accelerator, car drifts along, wheels start to drive engine rather than the engine driving the wheels.

Are we to believe that because the wheels are turning the engine (exactly as they would if gravity was rolling the car forwards rather than momentum), we should now select reverse so as not to force the engine to rotate backways?


I wouldn't be the LEAST bit surprised if Irish driving instructors told people this.