Are the gards always useless??

Starokan

This does seem like a long time to me for someone to call and take a statement, any interaction I had with the gardai over the years I found that they took statements usually within the first 24 hours.

I would definitely say the gardai are not useless they do a superb job in general despite a range of factors that make their job extremely difficult.

I would call to the station OP, I would imagine there are some extenuating circumstances in play that have prevented this progressing

Narenj

Ozziej wrote: »

I haven't read any of the thread but I can tell you the two times I have had to call guards on traffic issues I have found them to be totally disinterested.

The first was about 10 years ago when a car rear ended me near Christchurch in Dublin doing damage to my boot and then driving off at speed. I got the REG and saw the white of the guys eyes in my rear view mirror. It took many calls to Gardaí station with excuses that the guy who took the details wasn't on. Eventually I managed to get a hold of him and all he said was the car was registered to a Romanian gypsy woman and that the guy who was probably driving it was banned from driving. hey knew him but he was denying it. I said I saw his face in my rear view mirror (big moustache like Mario) but he said if they were to do a line up he would have to gather up willing Romanians for the line up and that wasn't practical. I then traded my car in so didn't need to get it fixed.

About 4 years ago I am pushing a buggy with my two small kids in a respectable area in Dublin when a lunatic mounts fully the wide footpath and cyclelane driving right at us and another guy. He pulled out off the footpath at the last minute smirking away and shot off. The guy who was on the footpath was shaking like a leaf (he may have been the target) but I was royally pissed off as you'd imagine. I got REG, car, description and still remember the smirking young driver's face today. Again rang guards. They said they would send someone out (never arrived). So another 3 weeks of calling into Gardaí station and phone calls eventually yielded a grumpy guard when came out on the offensive. He said he checked REG, registered to a woman (sound familiar). He asked if anyone is injured. He said I could go to court but the guy would know who I was and may find out where I live. So he wouldn't advise it.

So the question is are they useless or just realistic about conviction?

Thanks for sharing your experience. The people that assulted me have the same nationality as the ones you mentioned. Nothing against them but the point is that they should not be allowed to do as they want without any consequence just because they are violent and the guards can not control them. That is just unfair

Narenj

Starokan wrote: »

This does seem like a long time to me for someone to call and take a statement, any interaction I had with the gardai over the years I found that they took statements usually within the first 24 hours.

I would definitely say the gardai are not useless they do a superb job in general despite a range of factors that make their job extremely difficult.

I would call to the station OP, I would imagine there are some extenuating circumstances in play that have prevented this progressing

I really don't get that either as they got a statement shortly after the incident. But now they want to get an "officail statement". Don't really understand what that statement was.

Little CuChulainn

Bandana boy wrote: »

10 days for a serious assault is way too long
If her workload is more important than this case then your case needs to be moved to a new officer.

As regards OP no not all Garda are useless but unfortunately with no real performance management , those that are can coast through their 35 years service with very little implications

None of this post is factually accurate.

Narenj

Narenj wrote: »

I really don't get that either as they got a statement shortly after the incident. But now they want to get an "officail statement". Don't really understand what that statement was.

They didn't get a statement OP, they just took a report from you.
For a criminal investigation you must give a state, in writing, to the gardai, it will be signed by you and used as evidence.
It's basically the evidence you yourself will give in court, should the case get that far.

Little CuChulainn

Usually 3 months would be the target for a section 3 assault. You need to wait for the victim to get their injuries sorted so you know the full extent of assault brfore making an arrest. You need to get cctv and witness statements too. You then need to get a full medical report before you submit a file for direction. These things take time. 10 days is not a lot of time in the case of an assault investigation.

Ozziej

Ozziej wrote: »

I haven't read any of the thread but I can tell you the two times I have had to call guards on traffic issues I have found them to be totally disinterested.

The first was about 10 years ago when a car rear ended me near Christchurch in Dublin doing damage to my boot and then driving off at speed. I got the REG and saw the white of the guys eyes in my rear view mirror. It took many calls to Gardaí station with excuses that the guy who took the details wasn't on. Eventually I managed to get a hold of him and all he said was the car was registered to a Romanian gypsy woman and that the guy who was probably driving it was banned from driving. hey knew him but he was denying it. I said I saw his face in my rear view mirror (big moustache like Mario) but he said if they were to do a line up he would have to gather up willing Romanians for the line up and that wasn't practical. I then traded my car in so didn't need to get it fixed.

About 4 years ago I am pushing a buggy with my two small kids in a respectable area in Dublin when a lunatic mounts fully the wide footpath and cyclelane driving right at us and another guy. He pulled out off the footpath at the last minute smirking away and shot off. The guy who was on the footpath was shaking like a leaf (he may have been the target) but I was royally pissed off as you'd imagine. I got REG, car, description and still remember the smirking young driver's face today. Again rang guards. They said they would send someone out (never arrived). So another 3 weeks of calling into Gardaí station and phone calls eventually yielded a grumpy guard when came out on the offensive. He said he checked REG, registered to a woman (sound familiar). He asked if anyone is injured. He said I could go to court but the guy would know who I was and may find out where I live. So he wouldn't advise it.

So the question is are they useless or just realistic about conviction?

Well firstly, neither of these incidents require gardai to call to you, there are higher priority calls which will be attended to before you, and yes depending on where you are, they may never call to you.
The gardai are highly under resourced , and that is the result.

Secondly, when you called to the station to make a complaint, you should have insisted that you were happy to go to court, if that's what you wanted.

Ozziej

bubblypop wrote: »

Well firstly, neither of these incidents require gardai to call to you, there are higher priority calls which will be attended to before you, and yes depending on where you are, they may never call to you.
The gardai are highly under resourced , and that is the result.

Secondly, when you called to the station to make a complaint, you should have insisted that you were happy to go to court, if that's what you wanted.

Fair enough, but to clarify, the guards were on the scene for the first incident and they may not have been required to call out to the second but they said they would and didn't show up.

I just think its easier for them to try and put you off going to court and thats how it felt to me. I shouldn't have to insist in my opinion. Its just another obstacle for someone reporting a crime to get over.

wotswattage

I've had a 15 month period elapse between an assault and me giving a statement. I went from having massive respect and admiration for the guards to having little of either anymore...

I got the same 'we'll call you over the next two days' treatment and heard nothing. After 3 weeks I started phoning the station on a regular basis (and called a few times to put my name in the book for him) to try get the guard to contact me. I wrote to him. I wrote to the sergeant of his unit, my employer wrote to the sergeant of his unit. I wrote to the superintendent as did my employer. Finally I got someone who actually knew the super to hand him a letter with a timeline of all my correspondence and had a statement taken within a week. Haven't heard anything since though...

I've bee told GSOC are a waste of time too so I'm kinda at a loss as to what to do. I'm bitterly dissapointed
I remember reading this article and thinking 'I'm one of these'
http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/news/10000-crimes-a-year-not-investigated-as-gardai-worktorule-31267042.html

Sorry for the thread hijack OP + good luck with your recovery but it seems this does happen.

The Bishop Basher

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

Usually 3 months would be the target for a section 3 assault. You need to wait for the victim to get their injuries sorted so you know the full extent of assault brfore making an arrest. You need to get cctv and witness statements too. You then need to get a full medical report before you submit a file for direction. These things take time. 10 days is not a lot of time in the case of an assault investigation.

This thread really confirms a lot for me about the guards. The defensiveness and lame excuses being given here are a joke..

This guy was assaulted. He reported it to the guards. 10 days have passed and he's heard nothing despite multiple attempts to make contact. Now 10 days may not seem like much to a public sector employee given the pace they tend to work at but to anyone else, 10 days with no communication is unacceptable. For an assault victim who's already in an emotional state, 10 days would be an eternity. That a number of posters on here see no issue with that delay explains why the OP is getting no where.

A call. 1 call. That's all it would take. That and actually doing some work to investigate. But in my experience, the op has heard nothing because there's nothing to hear. Nothing has happened and if the op wants to pursue this he's going to have to do all the cajoling and pushing or the case will just sit there going nowhere.

This level of service would be unacceptable in any private sector customer facing role. But with the Gardai not only is it considered acceptable but it's the norm.

Maybe if gardai spent more time actually working and a bit less time making up excuses for not working, the op would have got more joy.

But this thread kind of sums up pretty much every interaction I've had with the guards and it leaves people with zero faith or trust in the force.

Op - Honestly, if you want to pursue this you are going to have to put mountains of time and effort into it. You'll have to chase this guard every step of the way. I guarantee you it won't be worth it

Dr Turk Turkelton

In all fairness given the op's description of events in this case the Guards come across as useless.
Other people's dealings that I have heard of also makes them come across as useless.
So in summary(thankfully I haven't needed much assistance from them over the years) it's fine to conclude that they are in fact useless.I don't think I have ever heard of one sorry that makes them seem like a force that can implement law and order.
They will come down like a ton of bricks on a lad that's car tax is two months or of date but it seems you can beat the **** out of a fellow citizen and get off Scot free.

hhmmm?

Have absolutely no faith in the Irish police. They only seem to be there to collect motor tax fines.

They would sooner throw the book at somebody scratching the side of their head while driving because from a distance it looked like they were on the phone.

Dtp1979

Dr Turk Turkelton wrote: »

In all fairness given the op's description of events in this case the Guards come across as useless.
Other people's dealings that I have heard of also makes them come across as useless.
So in summary(thankfully I haven't needed much assistance from them over the years) it's fine to conclude that they are in fact useless.I don't think I have ever heard of one sorry that makes them seem like a force that can implement law and order.
They will come down like a ton of bricks on a lad that's car tax is two months or of date but it seems you can beat the **** out of a fellow citizen and get off Scot free.

I'd thank that twice if I could. And no, I've never been fined for no tax on my car!!!

Little CuChulainn

Swanner wrote: »

This thread really confirms a lot for me about the guards. The defensiveness and lame excuses being given here are a joke..

This guy was assaulted. He reported it to the guards. 10 days have passed and he's heard nothing despite multiple attempts to make contact. Now 10 days may not seem like much to a public sector employee given the pace they tend to work at but to anyone else, 10 days with no communication is unacceptable. For an assault victim who's already in an emotional state, 10 days would be an eternity. That a number of posters on here see no issue with that delay explains why the OP is getting no where.

A call. 1 call. That's all it would take. That and actually doing some work to investigate. But in my experience, the op has heard nothing because there's nothing to hear. Nothing has happened and if the op wants to pursue this he's going to have to do all the cajoling and pushing or the case will just sit there going nowhere.

This level of service would be unacceptable in any private sector customer facing role. But with the Gardai not only is it considered acceptable but it's the norm.

Maybe if gardai spent more time actually working and a bit less time making up excuses for not working, the op would have got more joy.

But this thread kind of sums up pretty much every interaction I've had with the guards and it leaves people with zero faith or trust in the force.

Op - Honestly, if you want to pursue this you are going to have to put mountains of time and effort into it. You'll have to chase this guard every step of the way. I guarantee you it won't be worth it

The problem is that the Gardaí spend all their time working. You say a simple phone call but when do you make it? Obviously your night shift is not the time to be calling people unless you can get it done in the first hour or two. There is no time during the day unless you are specifically given time to do your investigation, which just doesn't happen. You come into work and either get assigned to a patrol or to station duties. Maybe you get a chance to run through your list of investigations between all the passports and calls to the station but it's unlikely. With luck you get to call into a shop and ask for cctv or pick it up but you still need time to view it.

You call it excuses but this is the reality of what investigating members have to work with. You get sent from call to call and are given little to no time for any kind of investigation unless it is extremely time sensitive. And an assault simply isn't. It might sound callous but it's a simple matter of prioritising your workload in order that things don't get statute barred before you can finish with them.

Someone threw out the old "They have time for car tax fines" line. It's nonsense but it provides a simple example. You catch a person for no tax by being on patrol or doing a checkpoint. These are both things you are assigned to do. You can't do your investigation instead of them because then who will be patrolling the area? You stop a car for no tax. The vast majority of people are let off unless they are way out of date or they are a scumbag. Very few Gardaí want to bring a decent person who is struggling a little before a judge. To prosecute a person for tax you simply fill in a form and send it off. That's it. Takes 2 minutes. It has to be done within 3 months of the stop. Doesn't require statements, medical reports or cctv or anything of the sort. So to compare a prosecution for tax with a prosecution for a section 3 assault is ill-informed at best. They share no similarities.

It'd be great if a Garda could go to a call and take a report and stick with the investigation for the day but it's not possible. Places like Tallaght, Blanchardstown and Finglas are lucky if they have enough people working to crew a single patrol car, They are unlikely to even get to every call during the day, let alone investigate one of them. Managements solution to this problem was to bring in a monitoring system so they can monitor the progress of investigations and discipline Gardaí who fall behind. They didn't actually do anything to fix the problem though, just found a way to blame it on the Garda.

This is the reality of the conditions regular Gardaí have to investigate crime under. It's not excuses, it's facts. If you think you could do better under those circumstances then please enlighten me. I'd love to learn how. If you think You could manage things better then I'd say, no **** sherlock. We all could. But don't come in here calling Gardaí lazy and disinterested. I'm lucky if I can take a break during my ten hour shift. I've spent 9 years prosecuting people and seeing them get let off. I've been injured a number of times for my troubles and had my pay cut more than once. So you'll forgive me if your assessment of my work and that of my colleagues based on anecdotal evidence is given as much credence as a Waterford Whispers article or if your idea of what I should do is filed under the category of mission impossible.

We work with what we have. If you want more then give us more to work with. Operational uniforms, more recruits, work suitable cars, legislative changes, purpose built stations, court reforms, bail reforms. I'll take any one of the above and give you an improved performance.

Bandana boy

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

None of this post is factually accurate.

The fact you think waiting 10 days is not too long to take a statement on a serious assault shows how out of touch you and your colleagues are with reality and public opinion.

Obviously to charge will take longer nobody is disputing that.
Also the constant claims of under resourced from your brethren for these reasons does not ring true when comparing the cost we pay for our Garda with similar countries to us.
Either there is too many Garda , we are paying to much or in my opinion the most likely the productivity from the Garda is way below international standards.
It is my opinion (and it is my opinion)that this productivity challenge is driven by our lack of a performance management system . The many many not fit for the job Garda are dragging the rest down.

The amount of Garda who have lost there job over the years points to a lack of review.
The amount of very serious incidents with Garda behaviour reported recently shows a serious lack of controls.

You may argue it is only a few bad apples , but when you leave them in the barrel for years and years they turn the good apples too.


Also as an aside , explaining a delay does not excuse it , You seem to think being able to explain it means its ok , It is not and that is why so many people are rallying against what I am sure you think are well reasoned defensive statements.

Little CuChulainn

Bandana boy wrote: »

The fact you think waiting 10 days is not too long to take a statement on a serious assault shows how out of touch you and your colleagues are with reality and public opinion.

Where did I say that exactly? What I said is you need to wait until the full extent of the injuries are known. This is so you can include them in the statement and you know what level of assault you are dealing with. But since you brought it up, ten days is not a long time to wait. A statement for this kind of incident can take a few hours to get through so you have to be able to put that time aside and as I've already said, that time is just not available.

Bandana boy wrote: »

Obviously to charge will take longer nobody is disputing that.
Also the constant claims of under resourced from your brethren for these reasons does not ring true when comparing the cost we pay for our Garda with similar countries to us.

Either there is too many Garda , we are paying to much or in my opinion the most likely the productivity from the Garda is way below international standards.

Feel free to cite your sources for this claim

Bandana boy wrote: »

It is my opinion (and it is my opinion)that this productivity challenge is driven by our lack of a performance management system . The many many not fit for the job Garda are dragging the rest down.

in actual fact there is a very robust performance management system. It was introduced about nine months ago. It can't change the fact that there isn't enough time or resources to change anything.

Bandana boy wrote: »

The amount of Garda who have lost there job over the years points to a lack of review.

And how many Gardaí is that?

Bandana boy wrote: »

The amount of very serious incidents with Garda behaviour reported recently shows a serious lack of controls.

Can you provide any kind of example?

Bandana boy wrote: »

You may argue it is only a few bad apples , but when you leave them in the barrel for years and years they turn the good apples too.

I didn't argue it's only a few bad apples. I said it is due to a lack of manpower and resources. I was pretty clear.

Bandana boy wrote: »

Also as an aside , explaining a delay does not excuse it , You seem to think being able to explain it means its ok , It is not and that is why so many people are rallying against what I am sure you think are well reasoned defensive statements.

I'm not making excuses. I'm telling you the reality of the situation. I don't really care if you or the general public think it's outrageous, that won't change reality. You've sat by as the media and politicians used the organisation as a whipping boy for the last few years and now you are seeing the result of that. An under-resourced, under motivated force that is unable to provide the service required within the limited time and resources available and unwilling to go beyond what is required of them as they once did.

If you really want to see how much the Gardaí do in a single shift, a general strike looks very much on the cards for the near future so you'll get a very good idea then.

FGR

In my opinion it's the system that's completely broken.

The approach to crime investigation by AGS appears to have been abandoned by other services since the 60s. You look at the UK where proportionately there are far more officers doing far more specific tasks - detective teams investigate crime that require time whereas uniform officers act as first responders to emergencies and handle summary matters. Here a uniform guard is a jack of all trades, particularly outside of Dublin where there are so few to handle such cumbersome workloads.

People seem to think gardaí don't care. They do, it's just that the call a person makes is based on a list of priorities. Priorities that are tasked to them by their supervisor and it's rare when a member starts work to be told to get the job done - more often than not it's 'I need this file or report in front of me by tonight/tomorrow' and it's all hands on deck. If there's an emergency they'll go out but if not they're normally grounded trying to get on top of bureaucracy that has almost tripled in the last ten years.

When it comes to victims of crime - I agree the victims are let down terribly. In a world of such accountability a guard can be reluctant to even approach a suspect without a written complaint from the victim. And that has to be a victim who is willing to take the matter to court. The days of a guard being able to sort things out without taking it to court are long gone. Even with that complaint and a full file sent in record time it will still take at least five months from the date of submission to get the suspect into the body of a court. Add to that the ridiculous amount of adjournments for the most minor of matters and a system whereby the defendant can think about whether he'll plead guilty or not based on what evidence is against him and whether he feels he has a shot of fighting regardless of whether he truly did it - and a person can wait up to a year for even a menial thing to be resolved.

A menial thing that usually has a poor outcome for the victim and a slap on the wrist for the defendant.

People give out about the US justice system and the fact that it has the highest percentage of inmates in the developed world. It's far from perfect and has dozens if not hundreds of flaws. One particular reason for the high numbers however is due to the punishments being far more severe than here. If we were to genuinely incarcerate people instead of the revolving door system here and in many other European countries I can guarantee we wouldn't be much different.

I believe in reform - but only for those criminals who are willing to engage in it. Many are not. Prison is meant to be a punishment by depriving a person of their liberty - but it should also be seen as a way to keep the good community at large safe for as long as is practicable until that person does show genuine willingness to engage with services and education.

We need to streamline the courts system and bring it into the 21st century. We need to expedite the implementation of policies that fast track matters to the courts and have minor matters dealt with without such ridiculous delays. Investigative systems in AGS need to be improved and more structures and manpower put into place to implement them. The prison services need a massive boost and a couple of large new prisons built imo. Accountability is all well and good but more emphasis needs to be placed on the rights of the victim as opposed to the current mollycoddling of the offender.

One other thing - all of that will cost money. Is the tax payer willing to double their contribution to the Justice portfolio? I honestly don't think so.

To sum it up - are the guards useless? Yes; not because of the gardaí on the ground but because the state tied their hands and walked away.