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Future of Saorview now that Virgin owns TV3 & UTV Ireland

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135

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    #62
    TAFKAlawhec
    Registered Users Posts: 589 ✭✭✭TAFKAlawhec


    STB. wrote: »
    If TV3 use 2.5 megs for TV3's channel at a low bit rate they are charged for that. If they use 4 megs as a result of a higher bit rate required to output the resolution you are suggesting, then it will mean their percentage of mux usage increases.

    I actually doubt that increasing the screen resolution of SD Saorview channels from 544x576 to 720x576 would require such a significant bitrate increase to keep a visible quality against marcoblocking.

    Doing a check myself of leaving each channel on for a few minutes at a time, RTÉ1, RTÉ2 & TG4 on the RNI1 (NI Mini Mux) are averaging in the range of 2.1 - 2.5 Mbps for video with no visible macro blocking that I noticed, all three services broadcast full D1 (720 x 576) resolution.

    Also worth remembering that many of the FTA channels at 28 East run on a resolution of 544x576 with MPEG2 compression as opposed to MPEG4 for Saorview (less efficient) as well as on the commercial Freeview multiplexes that are running on average video bitrates smaller than 2 Mbps. The PSB2 multiplex on Freeview is running 10 full D1 streams using MPEG2 with an average bit rate of 2 Mbps.

    I reckon 2RN work very cautiously on their bitrates for Saorview particularly for SD channels and perhaps keeps SD video deliberately on such a low resolution to minimize impact on video quality on RTÉ2 on 2RN1 when stat multiplexing whereas if they were full D1, the SD channels would be more demanding of spare capacity that stat multiplexing offers to each stream, potentially affecting the spare data "pool" that RTÉ2 can draw from. In the meantime, the amount of data bitrate given to the SD streams is over-engineered to keep it and the RTE2 HD video stream as consistent a quality as possible. I reckon you could reduce the ABR of the Saorview SD channels to 1.5 Mbps and most people couldn't tell the difference.


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    #63
    Mickey Mike
    Registered Users Posts: 781 ✭✭✭Mickey Mike


    One plan is to fill the 2 Multiplexes and get done with it. I cannot see anymore channels coming after all these events. so here it is.

    PSB Mux1
    RTE1 hd 1920 by 1080i
    RTE NN sd 720 by 576i
    TG4 sd 720 by 576i
    OTV/RTE+1 576i
    Saorview info 576i
    RTE Radio channels

    PSB Mux2
    RTE2 hd 1920 by 1080i
    TV3 sd 720 by 576i
    3e sd 720 by 576i
    UTVi sd 720 by 576i
    RTE Junior/RTE2+1
    Commercial Radio

    RTE 1 and 2 swaped around. Can they all fit? is it workable or am I gone nuts.


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    #64
    Elmo
    Registered Users Posts: 23,641 ✭✭✭✭Elmo


    the regulators and government should really impose tough measures on Virgin regarding Saorview.

    All 3 channels if/when available in HD must be provided on Saorview. In terms of competition the viewer should have a choice of services and since Virgin is a major pay TV provider then it is only right that regulators and government look at this.

    I don't really mind that the +1's aren't on Saorview, I don't think it would be economical if TV3+1 started on Saorview, the audience even if it reached RTE ONE +1 is too low for a commercial broadcaster IMO. I assume it cost them little to provide the channels on PayTV.

    RTE should be allowed carry ads on news now and develop the channel (afaik the minister keeps News Now budgets at a minimum). RTEjr should now move from RTE2. While RTE ONE +1 should become RTE PLUS (THREE).

    Irish TV and any other channel on Saorview should be given must carry status.


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    #65
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,367 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    Mickie Mike wrote: »
    One plan is to fill the 2 Multiplexes and get done with it. I cannot see anymore channels coming after all these events. so here it is.

    PSB Mux1
    RTE1 hd 1920 by 1080i
    RTE NN sd 720 by 576i
    TG4 sd 720 by 576i
    OTV/RTE+1 576i
    Saorview info 576i
    RTE Radio channels

    PSB Mux2
    RTE2 hd 1920 by 1080i
    TV3 sd 720 by 576i
    3e sd 720 by 576i
    UTVi sd 720 by 576i
    RTE Junior/RTE2+1
    Commercial Radio

    RTE 1 and 2 swapped around. Can they all fit? is it workable or am I gone nuts.

    That is very close to what I was suggesting in earlier posts. You missed Irish TV which is due to join Saorview.

    Will they fit? Well, yes they should. At least, the HD channels can be reduced in bit rate to cope if there is a squeeze.

    Commercial radio should be made use DAB as well.


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    #66
    Elmo
    Registered Users Posts: 23,641 ✭✭✭✭Elmo


    Sam Russell wrote: »
    That is very close to what I was suggesting in earlier posts. You missed Irish TV which is due to join Saorview.

    Will they fit? Well, yes they should. At least, the HD channels can be reduced in bit rate to cope if there is a squeeze.

    Commercial radio should be made use DAB as well.

    PSB Mux1
    RTE1 hd 1920 by 1080i
    RTE NN sd 720 by 576i
    TG4 sd 720 by 576i
    OTV 576i
    RTE Junior/RTE THREE
    RTE Radio channels

    PSB Mux2
    RTE2 hd 1920 by 1080i
    TV3 sd 720 by 576i
    3e sd 720 by 576i
    UTVi sd 720 by 576i
    Irish TV 576i
    Commercial Radio

    Is SAORVIEW INFO or any info channel licenced or any info channel. They are broadcast channels after all.


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    #67
    Elmo
    Registered Users Posts: 23,641 ✭✭✭✭Elmo


    Also the audience numbers for TV3 and UTV are relatively equal, the idea that UTV had low audience figure compared to TV3 is non-sense.

    The none of the regs will prevent this merger. As pointed out content isn't good. TV3's Xpose, 7 O'Clock show and The Pulse! both had an opportunity to be creative.

    The big problem is being part of a much larger organisation.


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    #68
    STB.
    Registered Users Posts: 5,380 ✭✭✭STB.


    TAFKAlawhec wrote: »
    I actually doubt that increasing the screen resolution of SD Saorview channels from 544x576 to 720x576 would require such a significant bitrate increase to keep a visible quality against marcoblocking.

    Doing a check myself of leaving each channel on for a few minutes at a time, RTÉ1, RTÉ2 & TG4 on the RNI1 (NI Mini Mux) are averaging in the range of 2.1 - 2.5 Mbps for video with no visible macro blocking that I noticed, all three services broadcast full D1 (720 x 576) resolution.

    Also worth remembering that many of the FTA channels at 28 East run on a resolution of 544x576 with MPEG2 compression as opposed to MPEG4 for Saorview (less efficient) as well as on the commercial Freeview multiplexes that are running on average video bitrates smaller than 2 Mbps. The PSB2 multiplex on Freeview is running 10 full D1 streams using MPEG2 with an average bit rate of 2 Mbps.

    I reckon 2RN work very cautiously on their bitrates for Saorview particularly for SD channels and perhaps keeps SD video deliberately on such a low resolution to minimize impact on video quality on RTÉ2 on 2RN1 when stat multiplexing whereas if they were full D1, the SD channels would be more demanding of spare capacity that stat multiplexing offers to each stream, potentially affecting the spare data "pool" that RTÉ2 can draw from. In the meantime, the amount of data bitrate given to the SD streams is over-engineered to keep it and the RTE2 HD video stream as consistent a quality as possible. I reckon you could reduce the ABR of the Saorview SD channels to 1.5 Mbps and most people couldn't tell the difference.

    As it is the bitrate being used for some of the SD stations is far to low even at 544x576 (strangely the gui on my gigablue shows this as 528x576), but I'll go with digitalbitrate's transport streams.

    This is the whole issue here, the quality of the bitrates being used on some of the SD stations, regardless of the resolution.

    Infact not being party to it, but it looks to me in TV3s case as if there are threshold ceiling in there that may have been requested by that broadcaster as they are particularly low. Not knowing the content I can only assume this is the position. I cannot see why their content would be so compressed, especially when you compare it with the Oireachtas Channel.

    The proposition being put across is that there is little or no change to the tariff costs if everyone including the HD stations ups their bitrate to solve the problem of poor quality SD.

    This is not how the tariff system works. One thing is for sure if the stations up the SD resolution and continued to use the current bit rate you'd really know about it!

    In the unlikely event that broadcasters want to pay more money for their usage of the mux, Mux 1 channels will have to be redistributed as it cant hold anything else.

    Yes I am aware that H264 is 50% more efficient than MPEG2. Not knowing the bitrates and not being a Sky customer, I cannot comment on either the quality or its performance at that br.


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    #69
    icdg
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 11,513 Mod ✭✭✭✭icdg


    Indeed

    By the way, although this forum is in the Tech category, there's no bar on discussing content where relevant to the thread, though perhaps not individual programmes    .


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    #70
    icdg
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 11,513 Mod ✭✭✭✭icdg


    I've split off the radio discussion to its own thread. Anything radio related can now be considered off topic for this thread


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    #71
    medoc
    Registered Users Posts: 966 ✭✭✭medoc


    I see there is a TG4 test on Sky on a transponder with all HD channels. Hopefully it's a sign that it will be added to the Sky EPG. Maybe more chance of them considering a Saorview launch if they do.


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    #72
    Digifriendly
    Registered Users Posts: 4,016 ✭✭✭Digifriendly


    Here in NI I hope they don't ecrypt it the way they do with RTE1HD on Sky.


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    #73
    Mickey Mike
    Registered Users Posts: 781 ✭✭✭Mickey Mike


    It is nice to read Irish TV is coming to Saorview later this year which will add more choice, but will it be another 544 by 576i ? shame if it is. We're tired of looking at fuzz. All SD channels should be 720 by 576i at this stage at least. I have given up on HD.


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    #74
    Elmo
    Registered Users Posts: 23,641 ✭✭✭✭Elmo


    Mickie Mike wrote: »
    It is nice to read Irish TV is coming to Saorview later this year which will add more choice, but will it be another 544 by 576i ? shame if it is. We're tired of looking at fuzz. All SD channels should be 720 by 576i at this stage at least. I have given up on HD.

    In fairness I am not sure Irish TV has the quality for HD.... or SD


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    #75
    former total
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,536 ✭✭✭former total


    Even if Irish TV makes it to Saorview (which I doubt), do people really think it will improve the offering??


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    #76
    Mickey Mike
    Registered Users Posts: 781 ✭✭✭Mickey Mike


    I known from looking at sky 191 the picture quality is very low and blocky so I guess I'm not holding out for any large picture improvements. As regards offering, well its some addition.
    The service of saorview is a fairly poor one and seriously needs upgrading.


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    #77
    Elmo
    Registered Users Posts: 23,641 ✭✭✭✭Elmo


    former total wrote: »
    Even if Irish TV makes it to Saorview (which I doubt), do people really think it will improve the offering??

    Yeah I wonder about it to. It seemed to me they hoped they might not get a PSB status and that might cause controversy and put them in the news. Now they have been negotiating hard with RTÉ which sounds like they'll eventually say talks broke down with RTÉ because of price thus blaming RTÉ and get back in the news!


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    #78
    Mickey Mike
    Registered Users Posts: 781 ✭✭✭Mickey Mike


    Elmo wrote: »
    Yeah I wonder about it to. It seemed to me they hoped they might not get a PSB status and that might cause controversy and put them in the news. Now they have been negotiating hard with RTÉ which sounds like they'll eventually say talks broke down with RTÉ because of price thus blaming RTÉ and get back in the news!

    They agreed a yearly fee of 1 million euro for carriage. Sounds a lot really.


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    #79
    Elmo
    Registered Users Posts: 23,641 ✭✭✭✭Elmo


    Mickie Mike wrote: »
    They agreed a yearly fee of 1 million euro for carriage. Sounds a lot really.

    But negotiations doesn't since 2rn/rte have no control of those prices I doubt that comreg got involved


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    #80
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,367 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    Mickie Mike wrote: »
    They agreed a yearly fee of 1 million euro for carriage. Sounds a lot really.

    They were paying €3m for analogue.


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    #81
    Elmo
    Registered Users Posts: 23,641 ✭✭✭✭Elmo


    Sam Russell wrote: »
    They were paying €3m for analogue.

    I think the suggestion was that they have done a lot, no?


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    #82
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,367 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    Elmo wrote: »
    I think the suggestion was that they have done a lot, no?

    I do not understand your post.

    TV3 paid about €3m for carriage of their analogue service prior to the changeover to DTT. They objected to paying for carriage on any but the seventeen main transmitters which meant that they could only be received by 80% of the population instead of 90% for the other channels. The 3E channel was only available on satellite (and maybe cable).

    RTE and 2RN had to take court action to recover carriage charges.


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    #83
    icdg
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 11,513 Mod ✭✭✭✭icdg


    3e (originally Channel 6) started on cable/MMDS only - it joined Sky about 18 months after it launched and was never free to air until Saorview came along.


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    #84
    Elmo
    Registered Users Posts: 23,641 ✭✭✭✭Elmo


    Sam Russell wrote: »
    I do not understand your post.

    I think Mickie Mike was suggesting that the deal done between RTÉ and Irish TV seem as if a lot has been done to progress Irish TV airing on Saorview. I don't think they he was suggesting the fee seemed like a lot of money.


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    #85
    Mickey Mike
    Registered Users Posts: 781 ✭✭✭Mickey Mike


    Elmo wrote: »
    I think Mickie Mike was suggesting that the deal done between RTÉ and Irish TV seem as if a lot has been done to progress Irish TV airing on Saorview. I don't think they he was suggesting the fee seemed like a lot of money.

    'Sounds a lot' is just my own opinion, but as Sam says TV3 paid 3 million for analogue which boggles the mind why they won't go HD for less.


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    #86
    Elmo
    Registered Users Posts: 23,641 ✭✭✭✭Elmo


    Mickie Mike wrote: »
    'Sounds a lot' is just my own opinion, but as Sam says TV3 paid 3 million for analogue which boggles the mind why they won't go HD for less.

    Where did you read that they have negotiated non-negotiable fees? And that they have signed to appear on saorview


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    #87
    The Cush
    Registered Users Posts: 15,485 ✭✭✭✭The Cush


    Elmo wrote: »
    Where did you read that they have negotiated non-negotiable fees? And that they have signed to appear on saorview

    They announced it at the Ploughing Championships last week - http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=101099730#post101099730

    http://blog.irishtv.ie/?p=2892


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    #88
    Elmo
    Registered Users Posts: 23,641 ✭✭✭✭Elmo


    The Cush wrote: »
    They announced it at the Ploughing Championships last week - http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=101099730#post101099730

    http://blog.irishtv.ie/?p=2892

    But no date how much testing is required!


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    #89
    The Cush
    Registered Users Posts: 15,485 ✭✭✭✭The Cush


    Elmo wrote: »
    But no date

    They say weeks but no firm date.


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    #90
    Mickey Mike
    Registered Users Posts: 781 ✭✭✭Mickey Mike


    Elmo wrote: »
    Where did you read that they have negotiated non-negotiable fees? And that they have signed to appear on saorview

    Saw it in the Journal.ie 5 days ago, its since been in the Irish times and Independent.ie. So lets wait and see what happens.


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    #91
    Elmo
    Registered Users Posts: 23,641 ✭✭✭✭Elmo


    Meanwhile, the multi-millionaire investor and partowner of Mayo-based Irish TV, John Griffin, has complained about the channel being required to put up a €3 million bond to be broadcast on Ireland’s answer to Freeview, Saorview.

    Oh Hum http://www.theirishworld.com/rte-tv3-diaspora-channel/


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