Me vs my friends

zoobizoo

It isn't and it certainly isn't when you grow up

K_P

Hollister11 wrote: »

Slaging people based on racism or appearance is normal amongst friends. OP chill out it's only a laugh.

No. It really really isn't. Racism or mocking people with a disability isn't "banter" however much you and your mates might like to dress it up as that. It's just not.

Lady is a tramp

I'd agree with what Samaris suggested. They're a lot less likely to act tough and mean if you chat with them (or some of them) individually.

For now I think it's a good idea to distance yourself a bit, give yourself some space from them before making the immediate decision to cut all ties completely. If you do decide to remain in touch with them, then each and every time an ignorant comment is made, call them out on it immediately. And make sure they realise how serious you are about this and why; and that your friendship is absolutely at stake if they don't stop this behaviour when you're around. If they continue despite that, they obviously value your friendship very little anyways, so why would you want to stay in touch with them.

I absolutely hate racism, intolerance, and making fun of people with disabilities is the lowest of the low. But ... in my experience, many people like your mates act that way out of ignorance rather than realising how wrong and nasty it is. And it doesn't necessarily mean they're fundamentally bad people.

They don't have to understand or agree with your stance, but it's certainly not too much to expect them to respect your views and keep the jokes and comments to themselves when you're around.

Basically I'd probably give them one more chance, but maintaining your distance for the moment. I know you've already spoken to them, but I'd approach them once more and make it crystal clear how serious this is to you. If they don't care enough to respect this, I reckon you're better off without them in your life.

Katgurl

Hollister11 wrote: »

Slaging people based on racism or appearance is normal amongst friends. OP chill out it's only a laugh.

Not my friends.

Katgurl

OP you've outgrown your friends. Their behaviour is inexcusable.

However you don't need the extra hassle of a nasty fallout yet you should make the reasons for your displeasure known.

I thought Samaris' post was spot on. I'd even quote what he (she?) said verbatim, there really is no negative response possible to something so reasonably without looking like a dickhead.

I don't know how much effort I would put into communicating my message thought. It sounds like you've washed your hands of them already in your head. I'd probably write that message via whatsapp and state you are leaving the group as uou're not cool with what's going on but hopefully catch up with some of them for a pint soon if they can knock off the tasteless jokes.

Then get on with your own life; it sounds like you've a lot of good stuff going on for yourself.

HardenendMan

I would lean towards telling you to lighten up a bit.

You mention that they are fine once 1:1. So that usually means they are not actually racist or treat people with disabilities poorly.

They are likely acting the way they do out of humour. Whether you find it funny or not is up to yourself of course, but do you really believe they are bad people for it?

What about comedians that make jokes about the disabled? If you get offended by them, you don't go to the show. Entirely your choice.

Ultimately I think you should part ways with the group, but only because yee are too different, I doubt your mates are any different from other groups of lads.

K_P

HardenendMan wrote: »

They are likely acting the way they do out of humour. Whether you find it funny or not is up to yourself of course, but do you really believe they are bad people for it?

What about comedians that make jokes about the disabled? If you get offended by them, you don't go to the show. Entirely your choice.

Obviously there are ways for a comedian to tell jokes about disability or race in a way that's mocking people of different races or abilities (your typical 1970s Bernard Manning shite) and ways that play on society's perceptions of them, where the butt of the joke isn't the person with a disability or the immigrant. There's a huge difference between those two approaches and they can't all be lumped together as "disability jokes".

What this is though is a large group of men singling out a local man with a disability who may be quite vulnerable, may have spent his life being looked down on and laughed at, may be lonely. And this group of hilarious banter-meisters are taking pictures of him, sending them to each other, mocking him. It's a long way from a comedian making a joke about hypotheticals.

HardenendMan wrote: »

You mention that they are fine once 1:1. So that usually means they are not actually racist or treat people with disabilities poorly.

That usually means? Are you serious? This is a real person we're talking about. They ARE treating a person with a disability poorly.

That_Guy

HardenendMan wrote: »

I would lean towards telling you to lighten up a bit.

You mention that they are fine once 1:1. So that usually means they are not actually racist or treat people with disabilities poorly.

They are likely acting the way they do out of humour. Whether you find it funny or not is up to yourself of course, but do you really believe they are bad people for it?

What about comedians that make jokes about the disabled? If you get offended by them, you don't go to the show. Entirely your choice.

Ultimately I think you should part ways with the group, but only because yee are too different, I doubt your mates are any different from other groups of lads.

In a way I do get what you're trying to say but coming from a background where I have family members who have/had disabilities it simply isn't a case of me needing to lighten up. It's more a case of them needing to be more tolerant/accepting of people.

I've said in thread that I'd expect this type of humour from a group of young lads who really don't know any better. Not from lads in their late 20's/early 30's.

I've been around plenty of people with disabilities (physical/intellectual) during placements and voluntary work. I think there's certainly misconceptions about people with disabilities but to openly mock people is just something that I can't get on board with.

I can see the humour in the work I want to do regarding characteristics of certain service users etc but not because of their disability.

Your comedy analogy isn't exactly the best to use either. I know that Frankie Boyle uses shock humour and I stay away from him because I don't find him funny anyway.

Dara O Briain is someone I really like. You know what you get out of one his shows. Fun, intelligent and witty jokes. If I went to a show of his and he started randomly mocking people with disabilities I'd be furious because he never does stuff like that and because it's just crude offensive humour that you just shouldn't make fun of.

Just because other groups of people do it doesn't mean that I have to measure myself against them and what they do.

Like someone else said in the thread, I couldn't actually go out and work with vulnerable people on a day to day basis knowing that my supposed best friends can't be accepting of people/the work I do if they're getting a kick out of slagging them off.

alias06

Katgurl wrote: »

It sounds like you've washed your hands of them already in your head. I'd probably write that message via whatsapp and state you are leaving the group as uou're not cool with what's going on but hopefully catch up with some of them for a pint soon if they can knock off the tasteless jokes.

Don't bother send them a WhatsApp message. Just leave the group. If you send them a message they could all turn against you.

HardenendMan

K_P wrote: »

What this is though is a large group of men singling out a local man with a disability who may be quite vulnerable, may have spent his life being looked down on and laughed at, may be lonely. And this group of hilarious banter-meisters are taking pictures of him, sending them to each other, mocking him. It's a long way from a comedian making a joke about hypotheticals.

That is true, it is a bit beyond what I would joke about too.

K_P wrote: »

That usually means? Are you serious? This is a real person we're talking about. They ARE treating a person with a disability poorly.

Let me clarify. As far as I understand the lads aren't actually abusing the person to their face nor does he have any knowledge that he is being joked about.

That_Guy wrote: »

In a way I do get what you're trying to say but coming from a background where I have family members who have/had disabilities it simply isn't a case of me needing to lighten up. It's more a case of them needing to be more tolerant/accepting of people.

I've said in thread that I'd expect this type of humour from a group of young lads who really don't know any better. Not from lads in their late 20's/early 30's.

I've been around plenty of people with disabilities (physical/intellectual) during placements and voluntary work. I think there's certainly misconceptions about people with disabilities but to openly mock people is just something that I can't get on board with.

I can see the humour in the work I want to do regarding characteristics of certain service users etc but not because of their disability.

Your comedy analogy isn't exactly the best to use either. I know that Frankie Boyle uses shock humour and I stay away from him because I don't find him funny anyway.

Dara O Briain is someone I really like. You know what you get out of one his shows. Fun, intelligent and witty jokes. If I went to a show of his and he started randomly mocking people with disabilities I'd be furious because he never does stuff like that and because it's just crude offensive humour that you just shouldn't make fun of.

Just because other groups of people do it doesn't mean that I have to measure myself against them and what they do.

Like someone else said in the thread, I couldn't actually go out and work with vulnerable people on a day to day basis knowing that my supposed best friends can't be accepting of people/the work I do if they're getting a kick out of slagging them off.

Listen bud I am not trying to say you are wrong, as I said if you don't like the show then don't go. Just giving another perspective. Don't paint them as scum if they are only having a private laugh among each other.

intheclouds

HardenendMan wrote: »

Let me clarify. As far as I understand the lads aren't actually abusing the person to their face nor does he have any knowledge that he is being joked about.

Christ.

Would you think it was ok if your wife was having an affair and slagging off your performance in the sack so long as you didn't know about it?

The poor guy knowing about it is not what makes it wrong. What they are doing is wrong regardless of who knows about it.

HardenendMan

intheclouds wrote: »

Christ.

Would you think it was ok if your wife was having an affair and slagging off your performance in the sack so long as you didn't know about it?

The poor guy knowing about it is not what makes it wrong. What they are doing is wrong regardless of who knows about it.

Christ yourself. You are blowing what I said out of proportion. I originally said that if they are different when OP is 1:1 with them then they are probably not the mini hitlers that offend you - that was quoted and I responded. I am not interested in arguing with you.

JellieBabie

I work with kids with special needs and tbh I literally could not tolerate listening to my friends joking about them.

My friends are friends with a guy who recently posted an incredibly ignorant status on Facebook making a comparison to a person with a disability (except he used a horrible term) trying to write a book and failing because they are too stupid.

I actually called my friends out on being friends with this guy and they said he actually doesn't even really understand that what he's saying is ignorant and he's poorly educated and grew up without ever being corrected on this behaviour.

Regardless I don't think that's acceptable. Once someone is educated on something or told it's wrong they should take it on board.

You should invite them to volunteer to work with you and tell them, make comments like that to their faces and see what they say to that! I would bet when they think about that particular context they will realise how bad these jokes actually are.

That_Guy

JellieBabie wrote: »

You should invite them to volunteer to work with you and tell them, make comments like that to their faces and see what they say to that! I would bet when they think about that particular context they will realise how bad these jokes actually are.

I've extended that invite several times.

Sure, most work in the airport and as such are likely to come across disabled passengers.

"And would you say such disparaging comments to their face?"

"Nah, we're not dickheads"

:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Genuine response I got.

---

Anyway, I thought I had blocked everyone from that Whatsapp group. Forgot one lad and he added me back in.

Decided to just say my piece and leave the group.

To tell you the truth lads, I'm done with this group. Twice now in recent weeks I've had it out with you asking you to stop making fun of people with disabilities and making racist comments etc.

The fact that I even have to ask a group of lads in their late 20's says a lot.

You know the type of course I'm in. You know my uncle has MS and is in a care home and you know the type of people I'll be working with.

I can't look a person in the eye and have their back and advocate on their behalf when I know my mates think it's ok to make fun of people with disabilities.

I can't do it anymore lads. To tell you the truth, it makes me feel like absolute shít that I even have to ask you to stop. Yet, when I do I'm jumped upon and yet when I'm told to stand up for myself and do so, I can't bloody win.

I'm out lads. I don't wanna be part of this group anymore. Don't add me back in.

I've said my piece and I hope you can respect it.

If they feel they want to chat my standard way of texting/making phone calls is available.

Honestly, I appreciate the advice I've gotten (good and not so good alike).

zoobizoo

Well done you.

It takes a lot of balls to take a stand like that

Penny Tration

I think that message was fantastic. You didn't single anyone out, you just told them how, collectively, they make you feel while explaining exactly why you feel as you do. I quite like the little dig at their immaturity too :pac:


You've done the right thing IMO. Maybe one or two of them will cop on to what they're doing. If not, it's honestly their loss.

That_Guy

zoobizoo wrote: »

Well done you.

It takes a lot of balls to take a stand like that

Penny Tration wrote: »

I think that message was fantastic. You didn't single anyone out, you just told them how, collectively, they make you feel while explaining exactly why you feel as you do. I quite like the little dig at their immaturity too :pac:


You've done the right thing IMO. Maybe one or two of them will cop on to what they're doing. If not, it's honestly their loss.

Thanks guys.

I'm feeling like I can breathe a bit somewhat. I can't block them coming up to the house and calling in or I can't block them from ringing me so if they're serious about wanting to change/hear me out they know how to get in contact me.

Ball is firmly in their court but I have no huge intention of returning it anytime soon.

K_P

Well done TG. If there were more people like you who had the courage of their convictions and willing to take a stand for what they believe in, the world would be a better place. If they have any bit of a conscience they should be ashamed of themselves after receiving that message.

That_Guy

K_P wrote: »

Well done TG. If there were more people like you who had the courage of their convictions and willing to take a stand for what they believe in, the world would be a better place.

So you're saying I should run for President.

But thank you. High praise indeed.

Potatoeman

HardenendMan wrote: »

Christ yourself. You are blowing what I said out of proportion. I originally said that if they are different when OP is 1:1 with them then they are probably not the mini hitlers that offend you - that was quoted and I responded. I am not interested in arguing with you.

I have to agree with you. Posting of the picture was mean but it does not sound like they are bullying the guy or are racist.

Part of the reason some people tell these jokes is because it's contraversial and a taboo.

A poster above called them intolerant and said you should cut them out of your life but it's just their humor. It's upto you but it seems like an extreme reaction.

Penny Tration

Potatoeman wrote: »

I have to agree with you. Posting of the picture was mean but it does not sound like they are bullying the guy or are racist.

Part of the reason some people tell these jokes is because it's contraversial and a taboo.

A poster above called them intolerant and said you should cut them out of your life but it's just their humor. It's upto you but it seems like an extreme reaction.

Racism isn't humorous though. It's racist. That excuse when slagging the disabled could almost fly, but when you're saying racist things, you're racist.

Potatoeman

Penny Tration wrote: »

Racism isn't humorous though. It's racist. That excuse when slagging the disabled could almost fly, but when you're saying racist things, you're racist.

I resever the term for someone that actually hates people of another race rather than tells off colour jokes. Some people would consider the disabled jokes worse if the person is not in a position to defend themselves. When you start putting limits on humor then, where do you stop.

Penny Tration

Potatoeman wrote: »

I resever the term for someone that actually hates people of another race rather than tells off colour jokes. Some people would consider the disabled jokes worse if the person is not in a position to defend themselves. When you start putting limits on humor then, where do you stop.

It's not putting limits on humour, it's finding bigoted comments painfully unfunny.

Slagging someone off for something they can't change is nasty. Black people can't change their skin tone, disabled people can't change their disability.


My mam is disabled. Unfortunately, part of it means that when she is particularly bad, she can't walk properly. she wobbles and stumbles a lot. Hearing people slag her off over it means she no longer goes outside unless absolutely necessary, even on her good days, because she knows she'll hear more people insult her and loudly "whisper" that she's drunk.


Joking is funny. Slagging people off is a sh!tty thing to do. You have no idea who can hear you and what it'll do to that person.

intheclouds

Potatoeman wrote: »

I resever the term for someone that actually hates people of another race rather than tells off colour jokes. Some people would consider the disabled jokes worse if the person is not in a position to defend themselves. When you start putting limits on humor then, where do you stop.

If we (as a society) accept racist jokes and jokes about the disabled, it means that our attitudes follow and that racism is ok.

Thats why some comedy is temporal and considered unfunny when times pass and attitudes change.

Fawlty Towers is a good example of this. Slagging off different nationalities - and we all laughed. We still laugh at the reruns. But youd never get away with making a comedy like that today, it would be considered un pc. And rightfully so, because we have copped on that casual racism isnt funny.

Potatoeman

Penny Tration wrote: »

It's not putting limits on humour, it's finding bigoted comments painfully unfunny.

Slagging someone off for something they can't change is nasty. Black people can't change their skin tone, disabled people can't change their disability.


My mam is disabled. Unfortunately, part of it means that when she is particularly bad, she can't walk properly. she wobbles and stumbles a lot. Hearing people slag her off over it means she no longer goes outside unless absolutely necessary, even on her good days, because she knows she'll hear more people insult her and loudly "whisper" that she's drunk.


Joking is funny. Slagging people off is a sh!tty thing to do. You have no idea who can hear you and what it'll do to that person.

Slagging someone off to their face is rude. The poster here is talking about a chatgroup.

I don't want to derail the thread but your mums situation is very different. That seems more lack of awareness than mean spirited.

Words only have power if you give them power. You are not going to change everyone in the world, it's far easier to accept yourself.

Potatoeman

intheclouds wrote: »

If we (as a society) accept racist jokes and jokes about the disabled, it means that our attitudes follow and that racism is ok.

Thats why some comedy is temporal and considered unfunny when times pass and attitudes change.

Fawlty Towers is a good example of this. Slagging off different nationalities - and we all laughed. We still laugh at the reruns. But youd never get away with making a comedy like that today, it would be considered un pc. And rightfully so, because we have copped on that casual racism isnt funny.

'We' have not decided anything, a very vocal minority of overly sensitive people make complaints and rather than deal with that, companies censor things.
If you still laugh then it is funny.

intheclouds

Potatoeman wrote: »

'We' have not decided anything, a very vocal minority of overly sensitive people make complaints and rather than deal with that, companies censor things.
If you still laugh then it is funny.

I used the royal "we" to indicate our society as a whole. The views and attitudes of societies change over time. I think you would find it is the minority who find racism or laughing at disabilities funny these days.

I think you are missing the point there on the Fawlty Towers example. We actually laugh for a different reason now. We laugh because we are a bit shocked that such a thing would have been considered funny and would have been acceptable to make for the telly.

K_P

Potatoeman wrote: »

Slagging someone off to their face is rude. The poster here is talking about a chatgroup.

Let's say there was a group of guys or girls who you knew to see from the pub or the gym or wherever. Everytime they see you half of them start laughing and nudging the others, whispering, looking at you, you notice them taking pictures of you. How would you feel? If you found out they sent messages to each other about you all the time laughing at how you looked, how you spoke, how would that make you feel? Would you still be ok with it just because you didn't see the actual messages?

Do you think what they're doing is harmless just because the person they're mocking doesn't see the messages? It sounds like there's no joke involved in what these guys are saying, they're just laughing at how a man with Down Syndrome looks and talks. That's it. Fucking hilarious.

They can't claim ignorance as the OP has pulled them up on this. And to be honest, the most cursory awareness of how to be a decent human being would tell you you just don't do this. It's nothing to do with political correctness. It's to do with whether or not you see a vulnerable person as a living breathing punchline. There's no lack of awareness here, they're just being awful awful people who are brave only because they're in a group and have their equally awful mates to back them up.

Potatoeman

intheclouds wrote: »

I used the royal "we" to indicate our society as a whole. The views and attitudes of societies change over time. I think you would find it is the minority who find racism or laughing at disabilities funny these days.

I think you are missing the point there on the Fawlty Towers example. We actually laugh for a different reason now. We laugh because we are a bit shocked that such a thing would have been considered funny and would have been acceptable to make for the telly.

I don't even think FT is racist. Basil shouts at lots of people and they (Manuel) are the same race, just different nationalities.

K_P wrote: »

Let's say there was a group of guys or girls who you knew to see from the pub or the gym or wherever. Everytime they see you half of them start laughing and nudging the others, whispering, looking at you, you notice them taking pictures of you. How would you feel? If you found out they sent messages to each other about you all the time laughing at how you looked, how you spoke, how would that make you feel? Would you still be ok with it just because you didn't see the actual messages?

Do you think what they're doing is harmless just because the person they're mocking doesn't see the messages? It sounds like there's no joke involved in what these guys are saying, they're just laughing at how a man with Down Syndrome looks and talks. That's it. Fucking hilarious.

They can't claim ignorance as the OP has pulled them up on this. And to be honest, the most cursory awareness of how to be a decent human being would tell you you just don't do this. It's nothing to do with political correctness. It's to do with whether or not you see a vulnerable person as a living breathing punchline. There's no lack of awareness here, they're just being awful awful people who are brave only because they're in a group and have their equally awful mates to back them up.

That's bullying. Posting pictures of the guy is OTT but not something I would cut someone out of my life for. If they were doing it in front of him or they were in the same circle of friends then it would be worse. It is mean though.

That_Guy

That_Guy wrote: »

If they feel they want to chat my standard way of texting/making phone calls is available.

Instead of taking this option, they decided to send me loads of pictures on Facebook about lightening up etc etc etc Tagging everybody else.

Yeah.

So... I'm not even going to entertain the idea of contact if this is how they wanna play it.

I'm done with them and tbh, I guess this thread is probably done too.

Again, I appreciate the advice, nice messages I've gotten.