Politics and prayer

realitykeeper

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

It's actually a much simpler question than that.



There are 2 answers that you wish to consider and there are WAY more possible answers. For example the god might be a natural phenomenon, bound by the rules of the universe. Or God could make up silly rules and strange loopholes as a way to amuse itself. Or god might be all powerful but not very bright and made a hash of it first time around. Or god might actually be quite cruel and enjoy the idea of its followers having no good evidence but punish them if they don't accept him.

You can't eliminate any of those possibilities and you can't demonstrate the few potential possibilities you proposed either.

The question was: Does god make the rules or not?

The honest answer is that you haven't a clue because of the lack of evidence.

Perhaps it would help if you would specify whether you are referring to rules governing morality or the laws of physics. If you are talking about the laws of physics then you should have said so and I would have quoted you John 3:12. If I have told you about earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you about heavenly things?

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

The claim in the Bible is that god appeared to lots of people. He wrestled with one character ( Jacob I think). Jacob couldn't have had faith if he actually had evidence.

Basically you're using lack of evidence of existence as evidence of existence.

The standards of evidence are unique for your god. You wouldn't accept the existence of anyone else or anything important with similar evidence. Maybe you would but you'd be credulous.

So are you saying God provided too much evidence by appearing to people in the bible or not enough by not appearing you you?

realitykeeper

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

Why does faith or prayer have to be mentioned though? why not the simpler version I have made it above where religion is taken out of the equation? It's still the same "inspiring message" just without any religious connotations.

Because prayer inspires the Faithful. The original Cathedral of Christ the Savior in Moscow took 40 years to build. In 1931 on the orders of Stalin, it was destroyed and eventually a community swimming pool was put in its place. After 70 years of Communism. A magnificent new Cathedral stands again on that site. Russia has returned to God for good reason. God is great and Communism isn`t.

Timberrrrrrrr

realitykeeper wrote: »

Because prayer inspires the Faithful. The original Cathedral of Christ the Savior in Moscow took 40 years to build. In 1931 on the orders of Stalin, it was destroyed and eventually a community swimming pool was put in its place. After 70 years of Communism. A magnificent new Cathedral stands again on that site. Russia has returned to God for good reason. God is great and Communism isn`t.

But it doesn't inspire those of none faith, again why should religion even be bought into the equation when the majority have no faith?

As we can see from the reports from France this morning prayer certainly does inspire the faithful.

El_Duderino 09

realitykeeper wrote:

Perhaps it would help if you would specify whether you are referring to rules governing morality or the laws of physics. If you are talking about the laws of physics then you should have said so and I would have quoted you John 3:12. If I have told you about earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you about heavenly things?

I'll go one better and specify the the rule where god sent Jesus to be sacrificed for out salvation. Does god create the scenario where a sacrifice was needed/sufficed? It's the same question I've been asking all along. It's really hard to get you to answer though. P.s. it's OK to say you don't know.

realitykeeper wrote:

So are you saying God provided too much evidence by appearing to people in the bible or not enough by not appearing you you?

Nope. You said god doesn't appear to people because he wants them to come to him by faith. I pointed out that he doesn't always take the approach and pointed to an example where he broke that heuristic to wrestle Jacob all night long, for no apparently good reason.

The point was to raise the question of whether Jacob could possibly have faith/as much faith in god, now that he has actual evidence of God's existence.

Feel free to ignore the second point as it's a side track. I'm much more interested in the original question about whether god makes the rules. Cheers.

PopePalpatine

realitykeeper wrote: »

Because prayer inspires the Faithful. The original Cathedral of Christ the Savior in Moscow took 40 years to build. In 1931 on the orders of Stalin, it was destroyed and eventually a community swimming pool was put in its place. After 70 years of Communism. A magnificent new Cathedral stands again on that site. Russia has returned to God for good reason. God is great and Communism isn`t.

Totally nothing to do with Putin cosying up to the Russian Orthodox Church, of course. :rolleyes:

realitykeeper

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

But it doesn't inspire those of none faith, again why should religion even be bought into the equation when the majority have no faith?

As we can see from the reports from France this morning prayer certainly does inspire the faithful.

The majority do have faith. Atheists are the minority. And what reports might those be?

realitykeeper

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

I'll go one better and specify the the rule where god sent Jesus to be sacrificed for out salvation. Does god create the scenario where a sacrifice was needed/sufficed? It's the same question I've been asking all along. It's really hard to get you to answer though. P.s. it's OK to say you don't know.

What I do not know is what you were driving at. Specifics help. It is abundantly clear that the sacrifice which Christ made was necessary as a lesson to the world. It suffices only for those who heed and act on that lesson.

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Nope. You said god doesn't appear to people because he wants them to come to him by faith. I pointed out that he doesn't always take the approach and pointed to an example where he broke that heuristic to wrestle Jacob all night long, for no apparently good reason.

The point was to raise the question of whether Jacob could possibly have faith/as much faith in god, now that he has actual evidence of God's existence.

Feel free to ignore the second point as it's a side track. I'm much more interested in the original question about whether god makes the rules. Cheers.

While I am not familiar with that particular passage in the Bible it is worth mentioning that for humanity to know God, there had to be some communique between a chosen few such as the prophets and the disciples.

You have no doubt heard of people who speak of near death experiences. Scientists will correctly point out that the brain produces a morphine like substance to produce what many describe as a vision of bright light. However, it is wrong to assume this is a purely physical phenomenon. As physical beings, this area of the brain could be a usb pot between the physical and the divine.

The point is the doctors and scientists do not know. Furthermore, they do not know if there is enough dark matter in the universe to cause the big bang to be a repeatable event or just a one off.

Timberrrrrrrr

realitykeeper wrote: »

The majority do have faith. Atheists are the minority. And what reports might those be?

The reports if 85 people killed in a terror attack by a religious fanatic?

Love to see how many would consider themself Catholic in this country if the German religion tax was bought in, I think you would find that the "faithful" would soon become a minority.

Its dead Jim

realitykeeper wrote: »

Because prayer inspires the Faithful. The original Cathedral of Christ the Savior in Moscow took 40 years to build. In 1931 on the orders of Stalin, it was destroyed and eventually a community swimming pool was put in its place. After 70 years of Communism. A magnificent new Cathedral stands again on that site. Russia has returned to God for good reason. God is great and Communism isn`t.

Theocracies must be the best countries then like umm, oh dear. Im sure there's one good theocracy, somewhere...

realitykeeper

PopePalpatine wrote: »

Totally nothing to do with Putin cosying up to the Russian Orthodox Church, of course. :rolleyes:

Putin is ok. So is the Russian Orthodox Church. Not sure what point you are making.

realitykeeper

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

The reports if 85 people killed in a terror attack by a religious fanatic?

Love to see how many would consider themself Catholic in this country if the German religion tax was bought in, I think you would find that the "faithful" would soon become a minority.

I see now where you are confused. To pray is to get down on your knees and beg God for forgiveness. Killing people is something else.
Give onto Caesar that which is Caesar`s and give onto God that which is God`s. Like Catholics of olden days, the faithful would keep the faith behind hedgerows and gorse. Neither Redcoat or communist can defeat the faithful.

realitykeeper

Its dead Jim wrote: »

Theocracies must be the best countries then like umm, oh dear. Im sure there's one good theocracy, somewhere...

You mean like the Kingdom of Heaven?

Timberrrrrrrr

realitykeeper wrote: »

I see now where you are confused. To pray is to get down on your knees and beg God for forgiveness. Killing people is something else.
Give onto Caesar that which is Caesar`s and give onto God that which is God`s. Like Catholics of olden days, the faithful would keep the faith behind hedgerows and gorse. Neither Redcoat or communist can defeat the faithful.

How is getting on your knees inspiring?

You said prayer inspires the faithful

I'm just pointing out that it also inspires the lunatics.

Prayer has no place in politics

Timberrrrrrrr

realitykeeper wrote: »

You mean like the Kingdom of Heaven?

He means places that actually exist

Care to show us this "heaven" place? Got a picture? Maybe a link on Google maps?

Its dead Jim

realitykeeper wrote: »

You mean like the Kingdom of Heaven?

If you can point that out to me on a map, sure. Never heard of it and google maps is showing nothing. Is it near Saudi Arabia? Quite a few theocracies in that area.

realitykeeper

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

How is getting on your knees inspiring?

You said prayer inspires the faithful

I'm just pointing out that it also inspires the lunatics.

Prayer has no place in politics

For the faithful prayer is wonderful. There are certainly apostates of the Devil and false prophets that masquerade as wolves in sheep`s clothing and those forces of evil also inspire. This is why wisdom and understanding are so much more important than mere knowledge.

Politics is about leadership. Where would you have our TDs lead us. To Hell? Prayer is all important.

realitykeeper

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

He means places that actually exist

Care to show us this "heaven" place? Got a picture? Maybe a link on Google maps?

First find your faith. Then you will find heaven.

realitykeeper

Its dead Jim wrote: »

If you can point that out to me on a map, sure. Never heard of it and google maps is showing nothing. Is it near Saudi Arabia? Quite a few theocracies in that area.

Israel is a light onto the nations.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oxxYmn3HpDU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ov2jdgue260

El_Duderino 09

realitykeeper wrote:

What I do not know is what you were driving at. Specifics help. It is abundantly clear that the sacrifice which Christ made was necessary as a lesson to the world. It suffices only for those who heed and act on that lesson.

I asked the question in reference to this point you made.

realitykeeper wrote:

Assuming it is true, that god sacrificed his son for the salvation of sinners, then humanity owes God a debt of gratitude. Assuming it is false, then there is no debt owing. Given that you cannot know whether or not God exists, the non believer runs the risk of breathtaking ingratitude.

You said god made the sacrifice of his son for the salvation of sinners and we owe it's a debt of gratitude. You wanted to go round the houses by discussing the meaning of 'understanding' and the like so I'm not surprised you forgot what I was asking about.

My question was whether god chose a this way of saving sinners or if it was bought do to use this method. You seem to be saying hat god chose the method as a lesson to the world (but it's hard to tell because you haven't answered straight). A lesson would constitute evidence though and I thought your other point was that god doesn't use too much evidence god would prefer we come to it by faith rather than evidence.

Some religious people tell the same story like the sacrifice was a substitutional atonement for the sins of humanity. The sacrifice somehow cleansed humanity of its sins and opened the gates to the kingdom of heaven. If that isn't your understanding don't feel obliged to respond to it. It's just another way the sacrifice has been explained to me.

It's very difficult to weave a consistent narrative through the events. But that's your job, not mine.

To paraphrase, god doesn't give people too much evidence of its existence, except the times when it does give evidence to the chosen few. Like when god sent its son to provide evidence by preaching and ultimately providing such evidence as to constitute a lesson by being sacrificed.

I hope you hold other matters of importance to a better standard of evidence.

PopePalpatine

realitykeeper wrote: »

Putin is ok. So is the Russian Orthodox Church. Not sure what point you are making.

This would be the same Putin who's taken Russia to 148th (out of 179) in the World Press Freedom index, and scored 29/100 (where 0 is most corrupt, and 100 is least corrupt) in Transparency International's corruption ratings. The resurgence of religion in Russia hasn't cured corruption.

Timberrrrrrrr

realitykeeper wrote: »

For the faithful prayer is wonderful. There are certainly apostates of the Devil and false prophets that masquerade as wolves in sheep`s clothing and those forces of evil also inspire. This is why wisdom and understanding are so much more important than mere knowledge.

Politics is about leadership. Where would you have our TDs lead us. To Hell? Prayer is all important.

Hell? Again can you show us proof of its existence?

Timberrrrrrrr

realitykeeper wrote: »

Israel is a light onto the nations.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oxxYmn3HpDU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ov2jdgue260

Israel? The country who indiscriminately bombs innocent men women and children is your idea of heaven?

Its dead Jim

realitykeeper wrote: »

Israel is a light onto the nations.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oxxYmn3HpDU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ov2jdgue260

You think more countries should be like Israel then?

realitykeeper

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

My question was whether god chose a this way of saving sinners or if it was bought do to use this method.

Some religious people tell the same story like the sacrifice was a substitutional atonement for the sins of humanity.

Right, I think I have your question in these two sentences. Regarding the second sentence, that is the way the religious tell it and it used to be my understanding until I gave the matter some thought. Now, I think the crucifixion was a lesson or an example to humanity.

Regarding the first question, God did not crucify Himself but He choose not to save Himself in the hope that the faithful would think about and understand why He did not save Himself. The crucifixion was an act of evil. It was perpetrated by people who did not fully understand what they were doing.

realitykeeper

PopePalpatine wrote: »

This would be the same Putin who's taken Russia to 148th (out of 179) in the World Press Freedom index, and scored 29/100 (where 0 is most corrupt, and 100 is least corrupt) in Transparency International's corruption ratings. The resurgence of religion in Russia hasn't cured corruption.

Ok so Putin insists on high standards in journalism. Not everyone makes the cut. Transparency, like a plethora of western backed NGOs is a puppet organization which panders to the western establishment. The west is the greatest threat to peace and security in the world today. This is not a reference to the sale of arms to terrorists but to the future destabilization of the global markets following the inevitable implosion of QE economies.

realitykeeper

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

Hell? Again can you show us proof of its existence?

The sinners will find Hell for themselves. There are plenty of Godless places in this world such as North Korea for example where the elderly pick corn from cow dung to survive.
Very often there is a time lag between cause and consequence. Here in the west, life is good by world standards but the reason it is good is because of the Christian values of previous generations. This generation more godless than any in recorded history. Hell on earth awaits. By the end of this decade you will see were Godlessness has brought Ireland.

Timberrrrrrrr

realitykeeper wrote: »

The sinners will find Hell for themselves. There are plenty of Godless places in this world such as North Korea for example where the elderly pick corn from cow dung to survive.
Very often there is a time lag between cause and consequence. Here in the west, life is good by world standards but the reason it is good is because of the Christian values of previous generations. This generation more godless than any in recorded history. Hell on earth awaits. By the end of this decade you will see were Godlessness has brought Ireland.

So in reality "heaven & hell" exist only in the minds of the faithful.

realitykeeper

Its dead Jim wrote: »

You think more countries should be like Israel then?

I think every country should aspire to be like Israel.

realitykeeper

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

Israel? The country who indiscriminately bombs innocent men women and children is your idea of heaven?

Israel is not Heaven and North Korea is not Hell but as far as earthly examples go, you get the idea.

Timberrrrrrrr

realitykeeper wrote: »

I think every country should aspire to be like Israel.

Every country should aspire to take its neighbours land and wipe out the indigenous population? Not very "Christian" of you.