Politics and prayer

realitykeeper

There has been some debate in recent times about the Dáil prayer. In my view, the issue at hand is not the prayer itself but the fact that it has become routine and formulaic. Irish politicians need to be inspired. To this end, I propose that for each Dáil session, a few considered words of prayer should be delivered either ad lib or prepared but unique to the problems and challenges of the day.

By doing this, a Christian prayer leader can not only inspire and focus minds but he/she can also defer to those of other faiths and none in the spirit of the message. Properly done, the prayer can be by far the most important speech of the day.

Timberrrrrrrr

realitykeeper wrote: »

There has been some debate in recent times about the Dáil prayer. In my view, the issue at hand is not the prayer itself but the fact that it has become routine and formulaic. Irish politicians need to be inspired. To this end, I propose that for each Dáil session, a few considered words of prayer should be delivered either ad lib or prepared but unique to the problems and challenges of the day.

By doing this, a Christian prayer leader can not only inspire and focus minds but he/she can also defer to those of other faiths and none in the spirit of the message. Properly done, the prayer can be by far the most important speech of the day.

Prayer to whom?

How would this "inspire" people of no faith?

_Kaiser_

A proper system of accountability and attendance tracking with financial (and possibly internal) penalties for not hitting the targets would do far more to focus minds than prayers

Pawwed Rig

Prayers have no place in a national assembly that claims to have a separate church and State.

darkpagandeath

Anything Religious should be removed and from the Constitution as well. The CC does not hold sway like when they did in the founding of the state.

Satriale

I'm sure i mentioned it before, but i think the religious tax they have in Germany and other European countries would sort out the pious from the culturally religious pretty quickly.

I'm sure all those craw-thumping politicians would only be too delighted to hand over 8% of their pay for the good of their respective churches.

Timberrrrrrrr

Satriale wrote: »

I'm sure i mentioned it before, but i think the religious tax they have in Germany and other European countries would sort out the pious from the culturally religious pretty quickly.

I'm sure all those craw-thumping politicians would only be too delighted to hand over 8% of their pay for the good of their respective churches.

I would love to see that bought in here tbh, see how quickly the RCC membership figures drop in Ireland when people stop ticking the Catholic box on the census forms.

darkpagandeath

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

I would love to see that bought in here tbh, see how quickly the RCC membership figures drop in Ireland when people stop ticking the Catholic box on the census forms.

And 25% for TD's then see how they explain not voting in favour of the 8th for example.

L1011

A Christian prayer, no matter how well delivered or by who, is not going to inspire a non-Christian. Delusional to believe that it could.

Religion has zero place in anything the state does at all.

fran17

L1011 wrote: »

A Christian prayer, no matter how well delivered or by who, is not going to inspire a non-Christian. Delusional to believe that it could.

Religion has zero place in anything the state does at all.

No no no,there always has and always must be a place for religious belief/faith among those elected to public office and those who wish to be seen to be just.Those of the atheist persuasion refuse to accept the concept of good and evil and are thus lacking morality.Individuals such as Stalin,Mao,Pol Pot,Mussolini,Kim Jong,Ceausescu,Lenin and some would argue Hitler all lacked this morality.Atheistic governments/regimes have been responsible for the deaths of over 100,000,000 of their citizens in the past 100 years.

L1011

fran17 wrote: »

No no no,there always has and always must be a place for religious belief/faith among those elected to public office and those who wish to be seen to be just.Those of the atheist persuasion refuse to accept the concept of good and evil and are thus lacking morality.Individuals such as Stalin,Mao,Pol Pot,Mussolini,Kim Jong,Ceausescu,Lenin and some would argue Hitler all lacked this morality.Atheistic governments/regimes have been responsible for the deaths of over 100,000,000 of their citizens in the past 100 years.

Oh, do get a life.

Many of the people with the worst moral compass in Irish life in the past 50 years have been those most publicly religious. The "look at all these evil athiests" line was tired decades ago and ignores the huge numbers of deaths caused in the pursuit of religious wars. It is lazy and utterly inaccurate to believe or even claim that morals rely on religion.

The state here at least pretends to be separated from the church - as a result religion has no places in the Dail.

darkpagandeath

fran17 wrote: »

No no no,there always has and always must be a place for religious belief/faith among those elected to public office and those who wish to be seen to be just.Those of the atheist persuasion refuse to accept the concept of good and evil and are thus lacking morality.Individuals such as Stalin,Mao,Pol Pot,Mussolini,Kim Jong,Ceausescu,Lenin and some would argue Hitler all lacked this morality.Atheistic governments/regimes have been responsible for the deaths of over 100,000,000 of their citizens in the past 100 years.

Nut jobs are the problem not non Religious people. Plenty of more killed in the past in the Name of Religions way more.

fran17

L1011 wrote: »

Oh, do get a life.

Many of the people with the worst moral compass in Irish life in the past 50 years have been those most publicly religious. The "look at all these evil athiests" line was tired decades ago and ignores the huge numbers of deaths caused in the pursuit of religious wars.

The state here at least pretends to be separated from the church - as a result religion has no places in the Dail.

Im not speaking in respect to "prayer time" in Dail Eireann,im speaking in respect to an individuals sense of right and wrong,their moral compass so to speak.All studies will conclude that an atheists sense of what is socially/morally acceptable is dangerously skewed.

fran17

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Nut jobs are the problem not non Religious people. Plenty of more killed in the past in the Name of Religions way more.

People killed in the name of many things in past centuries,including God,but in modern times the link is undeniable.

L1011

fran17 wrote: »

All studies will conclude that an atheists sense of what is socially/morally acceptable is dangerously skewed.

Proof for this audacious statement, please.

Studies need to be peer reviewed and reputable.

fran17 wrote: »

People killed in the name of many things in past centuries,including God,but in modern times the link is undeniable.

And for that one, please. Show us, with real numbers, that numbers of people killed in pursuit of atheist causes vs religious ones

You are the one making the claims - the burden of proof lies entirely on you. You seem to know this proof exists so it shouldn't be hard to provide it.

hju6

fran17 wrote: »

Im not speaking in respect to "prayer time" in Dail Eireann,im speaking in respect to an individuals sense of right and wrong,their moral compass so to speak.All studies will conclude that an atheists sense of what is socially/morally acceptable is dangerously skewed.

I'm an atheist and try to conduct my life around

'do no harm'

Believers in the various 'sky fairies' could do a lot better if they adopted the same attitude .

Timberrrrrrrr

fran17 wrote: »

No no no,there always has and always must be a place for religious belief/faith among those elected to public office and those who wish to be seen to be just.Those of the atheist persuasion refuse to accept the concept of good and evil and are thus lacking morality.Individuals such as Stalin,Mao,Pol Pot,Mussolini,Kim Jong,Ceausescu,Lenin and some would argue Hitler all lacked this morality.Atheistic governments/regimes have been responsible for the deaths of over 100,000,000 of their citizens in the past 100 years.

Really?

What of the morality of all those priests who raped children for decades?

I'm an atheist and I know the difference between right and wrong, maybe you should save your breath preaching to us and take your teachings over to the Vatican where they might do some good.

darkpagandeath

fran17 wrote: »

People killed in the name of many things in past centuries,including God,but in modern times the link is undeniable.

Mechanisation is the only difference, Imagine the Crusade with our technology. Took longer to kill people in the past in the same numbers.

fran17

L1011 wrote: »

Proof for this audacious statement, please.

Studies need to be peer reviewed and reputable.



And for that one, please. Show us, with real numbers, that numbers of people killed in pursuit of atheist causes vs religious ones

You are the one making the claims - the burden of proof lies entirely on you. You seem to know this proof exists so it shouldn't be hard to provide it.

I'm not going to spend my Saturday night chasing down rabbit holes for you,a simple search will provide all the links you require.There is a long history of atheism and decadence.

L1011

fran17 wrote: »

I'm not going to spend my Saturday night chasing down rabbit holes for you,a simple search will provide all the links you require.There is a long history of atheism and decadence.

So you've absolutely no proof, then. Good. If the proof you are so confident about existed you'd provide it - but you've just made stuff up instead. Where does lying fall on your religiously guided moral compass? Are you planning a quick confessional to sort the lying bit out?

darkpagandeath

fran17 wrote: »

I'm not going to spend my Saturday night chasing down rabbit holes for you,a simple search will provide all the links you require.There is a long history of atheism and decadence.

Hahahahahaa. Vatican anyone ????

Fleawuss

OP called reality keeper proposes prayer as something with a basis in reality. Absurdity upon absurdity.

fran17

L1011 wrote: »

So you've absolutely no proof, then. Good. If the proof you are so confident about existed you'd provide it - but you've just made stuff up instead. Where does lying fall on your religiously guided moral compass? Are you planning a quick confessional to sort the lying bit out?

Passive aggressiveness wont get you anywhere and is self defeating really.Atheism goes hand in hand with all forms of depravity.Jeffrey Dahmer commited his depraved acts in the name of atheism:"If a person doesn't think there is a God to be accountable to,then whats the point of trying to modify your behaviour to keep it within acceptable ranges?".Back to my original point,the refusal to believe in good and evil.

darkpagandeath

fran17 wrote: »

Passive aggressiveness wont get you anywhere and is self defeating really.Atheism goes hand in hand with all forms of depravity.Jeffrey Dahmer commited his depraved acts in the name of atheism:"If a person doesn't think there is a God to be accountable to,then whats the point of trying to modify your behaviour to keep it within acceptable ranges?".Back to my original point,the refusal to believe in good and evil.

Try telling that the the RCC ?

Zaph

fran17 wrote: »

All studies will conclude that an atheists sense of what is socially/morally acceptable is dangerously skewed.

If you're going to come out with sh*te like that and tell me that I have no proper sense of what is morally or socially acceptable, I'm going to have to ask you to produce proper evidence for your statement or retract it.

L1011

fran17 wrote: »

Jeffrey Dahmer commited his depraved acts in the name of atheism

Can you prove that statement? Again, reputable source

Making stuff up is lying in pretty much everyone's moral code, and that is what you are doing. Either provide some proof or stop.

There is nothing "self-defeating" in demanding someone show their cards. It appears you are lying on a massive scale - you have the option to provide proof of your statements or let it become obvious that you are lying. Which I'm sure breaks the moral code of whichever religion you are a member of.

Zaph

L1011 wrote: »

There is nothing "self-defeating" in demanding someone show their cards. It appears you are lying on a massive scale - you have the option to provide proof of your statements or let it become obvious that you are lying. Which I'm sure breaks the moral code of whichever religion you are a member of.

I guess "Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour" pretty much covers it.

darkpagandeath

Zaph wrote: »

I guess "Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour" pretty much covers it.

I'm wearing 2 types of yarn spun together .... the humanity.

Satriale

fran17 wrote: »

Passive aggressiveness wont get you anywhere and is self defeating really.Atheism goes hand in hand with all forms of depravity.Jeffrey Dahmer commited his depraved acts in the name of atheism:"If a person doesn't think there is a God to be accountable to,then whats the point of trying to modify your behaviour to keep it within acceptable ranges?".Back to my original point,the refusal to believe in good and evil.

Whatever about you Fran, I dont need a god to "modify" my behaviour, I'm a pretty quiet guy in real life, i've never even tortured or maimed anyone(unless you count some of my posts on Boards!).

But you could be right, in that there are plenty of very religious people out there that would be rampant rapists, killers and kiddie fiddlers, if they didnt have their imaginary friend watching them. I'm very glad those people think that god is watching them.

(Actually scratch the kiddie fiddlers, God doesn't seem to mind them so much.:( )

jimmycrackcorm

_Kaiser_ wrote:

A proper system of accountability and attendance tracking with financial (and possibly internal) penalties for not hitting the targets would do far more to focus minds than prayers

They have that already. It's referred to as the election system. Of course as we know from the electability of Michael Lowry that accountability is local not national.

darkpagandeath

Satriale wrote: »

Whatever about you Fran, I dont need a god to "modify" my behaviour, I'm a pretty quiet guy in real life, i've never even tortured or maimed anyone(unless you count some of my posts on Boards!).

But you could be right, in that there are plenty of very religious people out there that would be rampant rapists, killers and kiddie fiddlers, if they didnt have their imaginary friend watching them. I'm very glad those people think that god is watching them.

(Actually scratch the kiddie fiddlers, God doesn't seem to mind them so much.:( )

That is an odd one alright. But all wizards seem to hate the Gays ... For some reason.

realitykeeper

darkpagandeath wrote: »

I'm wearing 2 types of yarn spun together .... the humanity.

The Jews and the Zoroastrians believe in keeping things Kosher i.e. separate. The practice is related to the necessity to identify and keep separate good from evil. It is good to think like this when faced with moral dilemma`s. Blurring the lines is the work of the devil.

L1011

realitykeeper wrote: »

The Jews and the Zoroastrians believe in keeping things Kosher i.e. separate. The practice is related to the necessity to identify and keep separate good from evil. It is good to think like this when faced with moral dilemma`s. Blurring the lines is the work of the devil.

So wearing two types of yarn spun is the work of the devil?

Where exactly do you buy your clothes?

uck51js9zml2yt

hju6 wrote: »

I'm an atheist and try to conduct my life around

'do no harm'

Believers in the various 'sky fairies' could do a lot better if they adopted the same attitude .

Seems like a lot of atheists believe in sky fairies which I find intriguing. Can you prove their existence?

realitykeeper

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

Prayer to whom?

How would this "inspire" people of no faith?

I am referring to a short but inspirational speech a bit like a barristers summation but built into a prayer for the faithful with deference to those of the non Christian and atheist persuasions.

L1011

realitykeeper wrote: »

I am referring to a short but inspirational speech a bit like a barristers summation but built into a prayer for the faithful with deference to those of the non Christian and atheist persuasions.

Which would inspire people how, exactly?

I would never be inspired by a throwaway "deference" in a prayer. I would be highly insulted by its presence, actually. If you want to pray to something you believe in, fine - do not dare involve me.

For Reals

#MOD NOTE#
Thread moved to World Religion.
Please read the forum charter at http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057568762.

looksee

realitykeeper wrote: »

I am referring to a short but inspirational speech a bit like a barristers summation but built into a prayer for the faithful with deference to those of the non Christian and atheist persuasions.

Oh you mean an uninterruptible and non-contestable party political broadcast?

fran17

Zaph wrote: »

If you're going to come out with sh*te like that and tell me that I have no proper sense of what is morally or socially acceptable, I'm going to have to ask you to produce proper evidence for your statement or retract it.

A correlation is not a causation,it is an association.There is a correlation between atheism and decadence but that is not to say that all atheists are decadent.Similarly there is a correlation between the Irish and alcoholism but that's not to say all Irish are,or will become,alcoholics.

fran17

L1011 wrote: »

Can you prove that statement? Again, reputable source

Making stuff up is lying in pretty much everyone's moral code, and that is what you are doing. Either provide some proof or stop.

There is nothing "self-defeating" in demanding someone show their cards. It appears you are lying on a massive scale - you have the option to provide proof of your statements or let it become obvious that you are lying. Which I'm sure breaks the moral code of whichever religion you are a member of.

To continue quoting Dahmer's atheistic logic regarding his depravity:"I always believed the theory of evolution as truth,that we all just came from the slime.When we died,you know,that was it,there was nothing"
A man clearly lacking objective morality.

Zaph

fran17 wrote: »

A correlation is not a causation,it is an association.There is a correlation between atheism and decadence but that is not to say that all atheists are decadent.Similarly there is a correlation between the Irish and alcoholism but that's not to say all Irish are,or will become,alcoholics.

You can come up with all the semantics you like, but you stated the following:

fran17 wrote: »

All studies will conclude that an atheists sense of what is socially/morally acceptable is dangerously skewed.

I asked you to show me evidence of these "studies" or to retract your statement. You have so far failed to do either.

Satriale

fran17 wrote: »

To continue quoting Dahmer's atheistic logic regarding his depravity:"I always believed the theory of evolution as truth,that we all just came from the slime.When we died,you know,that was it,there was nothing"
A man clearly lacking objective morality.

”Some months I've tried to keep this thing from happening. But I now see it's the will--it's the will of Sovereign Being that this happen to us. That we lay down our lives to protest against what's being done".

"Please. For God's sake, let's get on with it. We've lived--we've lived as no other people lived and loved. We've had as much of this world as you're gonna get. Let's just be done with it. Let's be done with the agony of it."

"Let's make our peace. And those who had a right to go, and they had a right to--How many are dead? Aw, God Almighty, God."


Since your fond of quoting serial killers, there are a few more for your collection. That's the Reverend Jim Jones as he persuaded 605 people to poison themselves and their 304 children with cyanide.


Jonestown Nsfw

fran17

Zaph wrote: »

You can come up with all the semantics you like, but you stated the following:



I asked you to show me evidence of these "studies" or to retract your statement. You have so far failed to do either.

Fair enough,I may have slightly over generalised there.Apologies if it was construed as personal.I did clarify however.

fran17

Satriale wrote: »

”Some months I've tried to keep this thing from happening. But I now see it's the will--it's the will of Sovereign Being that this happen to us. That we lay down our lives to protest against what's being done".

"Please. For God's sake, let's get on with it. We've lived--we've lived as no other people lived and loved. We've had as much of this world as you're gonna get. Let's just be done with it. Let's be done with the agony of it."

"Let's make our peace. And those who had a right to go, and they had a right to--How many are dead? Aw, God Almighty, God."


Since your fond of quoting serial killers, there are a few more for your collection. That's the Reverend Jim Jones as he persuaded 605 people to poison themselves and their 304 children with cyanide.


Jonestown Nsfw

Jim Jones was a communist who lived by the ideals of Stalin,Mao,Marx etc.Communism has been the host for the spread of atheism for the past hundred years.Jim Jones as a religious man? Pull the other one.

Timberrrrrrrr

fran17 wrote: »

Jim Jones was a communist who lived by the ideals of Stalin,Mao,Marx etc.Communism has been the host for the spread of atheism for the past hundred years.Jim Jones as a religious man? Pull the other one.

The Worlds Most Prolific Serial Killers are Devout Christians ~ Coincidence, or Men of Perfect Faith?


http://king-dave.newsvine.com/_news/2011/11/03/8623068-answered-prayers-the-worlds-most-prolific-serial-killers-are-devout-christians-coincidence-or-men-of-perfect-faith

Satriale

fran17 wrote: »

Jim Jones was a communist who lived by the ideals of Stalin,Mao,Marx etc.Communism has been the host for the spread of atheism for the past hundred years.Jim Jones as a religious man? Pull the other one.

Jim Jones was a nutter, same as Dahmer.

Setting aside Jones himself, what about his 605 faithful followers that killed 304 innocent children with cyanide laced pop. No atheists there.

Zaph

fran17 wrote: »

Fair enough,I may have slightly over generalised there.Apologies if it was construed as personal.I did clarify however.

I wasn't construing it as personal, you made a sweeping generalisation that you said was supported by studies. I'd like to see evidence of these studies or for you to retract your statement. As I've already said, so far you've done neither.

fran17

Satriale wrote: »

Jim Jones was a nutter, same as Dahmer.

Setting aside Jones himself, what about his 605 faithful followers that killed 304 innocent children with cyanide laced pop. No atheists there.

There was also a number of children who's lives were aborted because of Jim Jones,I would also add those to the figures.

fran17

Zaph wrote: »

I wasn't construing it as personal, you made a sweeping generalisation that you said was supported by studies. I'd like to see evidence of these studies or for you to retract your statement. As I've already said, so far you've done neither.

And as I've already said I have clarified it.However here is a study conducted in the US covering a large demographic concerning a wide range of moral topics:

http://www.jamesbishopblog.wordpress.com/2015/04/06/atheists-more-likely-than-theists-to-do-morally-bad-activities/

I'll await your dismissal on the grounds of it being a Christian source but oddly enough I'm failing to find an atheist source and the irreligious nature of the online media is quite the hindrance.

Its dead Jim

fran17 wrote: »

And as I've already said I have clarified it.However here is a study conducted in the US covering a large demographic concerning a wide range of moral topics:

http://www.jamesbishopblog.wordpress.com/2015/04/06/atheists-more-likely-than-theists-to-do-morally-bad-activities/

I'll await your dismissal on the grounds of it being a Christian source but oddly enough I'm failing to find an atheist source and the irreligious nature of the online media is quite the hindrance.

atheists and agnostics in America were more likely than theists to look upon the following behaviors as morally acceptable: illegal drug use, excessive drinking, sexual relationships outside of marriage, abortion, cohabitating with someone of opposite sex outside of marriage, obscene language, gambling, pornography and obscene sexual behaviour, and engaging in homosexuality/bisexuality.

Atheists and agnostics less likely to be homophobic shocker.

There isn't even a working link to the study. The title says it is stuff atheists and agnostics do while the questions ask for opinions. Not exactly a great start.

Satriale

fran17 wrote: »

And as I've already said I have clarified it.However here is a study conducted in the US covering a large demographic concerning a wide range of moral topics:

http://www.jamesbishopblog.wordpress.com/2015/04/06/atheists-more-likely-than-theists-to-do-morally-bad-activities/

I'll await your dismissal on the grounds of it being a Christian source but oddly enough I'm failing to find an atheist source and the irreligious nature of the online media is quite the hindrance.

That's fairly ridiculous, i dont care whether it's a christian source or not, but "cohabitating with someone of opposite sex outside of marriage" "sexual relationships outside of marriage" ?

You do realise that you wouldnt even be here if people didnt have sex outside marriage? 99.999% of sex since we descended from the trees has been outside marriage. Nothing moral or immoral about it.



What you think of this fine Christian lady Helen Ukpabio?

I saw a Dispatches documentary about her a few years ago, it broke my immoral Atheist heart see that child beaten as a witch.

The NYtimes says:

So well-known, in fact, that Ms. Ukpabio’s critics say her teachings have contributed to the torture or abandonment of thousands of Nigerian children — including infants and toddlers — suspected of being witches and warlocks. Her culpability is a central contention of “Saving Africa’s Witch Children,” a documentary that will make its American debut Wednesday on HBO2.



This is how you know a witch arccording to her:

"Under the age of two, the child screams at night, cries, is always feverish suddenly deteriorates in health, puts up an attitude of fear, and may not feed very well"


Sound familiar?