Children in the front seat of a car!

GM228

biko wrote: »

It's 150 cm, but this only refers to when the child don't need a booster seat.

It's not less than 1.35m (135cm), was changed several years ago.

http://ec.europa.eu/transport/road_safety/users/children/index_en.htm

Under EU law, seat belts must be used in all vehicles. Children over 1.35 m can use an adult seat belt.

Those under 1.35 m must use equipment appropriate to their size and weight when travelling in cars or lorries.

biko wrote: »

I googled it for you:

There is no law against children sitting in the front seat, as long as they are using the right child restraint for their height and weight.

http://www.rsa.ie/en/RSA/Road-Safety/Campaigns/Current-road-safety-campaigns/No-Child-Car-Seat---No-Excuse/The-Law/

Welcome

Despite what Google or the RSA say there is a law about children in front seats although it's just in relation to vehicles with no safety systems.

Under EU law (Directive 2003/20/EC) a child over age 3 and under 150cm height can't legally be in a front seat.

http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=celex%3A32003L0020

without prejudice to point (ii), children aged three and over and less than 150 cm in height shall occupy a seat other than a front seat;

Atlantic Dawn

SCOOP 64 wrote: »

The amount of ford transits going round with the mother in front holding the baby in her arms, unbelievable, some are untouchable.

It's their culture so to speak :pac:

ted1

GM228 wrote: »

It's not less than 1.35m (135cm), was changed several years ago.

http://ec.europa.eu/transport/road_safety/users/children/index_en.htm




Despite what Google or the RSA say there is a law about children in front seats although it's just in relation to vehicles with no safety systems.

Under EU law (Directive 2003/20/EC) a child over age 3 and under 150cm height can't legally be in a front seat.

http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=celex%3A32003L0020

EU Directives are not law, they are simply directives that should be written into law.

What makes you think a directive is a law?

There's so much rubbish and BS behind spread here. Folks if you don't know the law , stop giving answers that you think is law.

ted1

Keane2baMused wrote: »

Note the words appropriate and safe. This doesn't apply in your case obviously.

She's looking for the law, not your personal opinion.

RustyNut

savagethegoat wrote: »

back in the day we used to drive all the way to the UK with 5 in the back and no rear seat belts fitted. how things change!

When I was a kid the safety restraint system consisted of the oul lad reaching across the bench seat of the vauxhall victor with his left arm when ever he had to hit the brakes a bit harder than usual, might have been 4 or 5 kids on the front seat to avoid the who's sitting in the front fight. It was a regular occurrence for one or more of us to face plant into the (not laminated) windscreen or end up in a heap in the footwell.

Good times,Good times.....

trixychic

sunny2004 wrote: »

Thanks but I'm interested in the legal situation.

You've already had plenty of people showing links and quotes to the Irish law on this. What else are you looking for??

GM228

ted1 wrote: »

EU Directives are not law, they are simply directives that should be written into law.

What makes you think a directive is a law?

There's so much rubbish and BS behind spread here. Folks if you don't know the law , stop giving answers that you think is law.

Rubbish and BS?

A directive is an EU legislative act, and a directive is classed as a form of secondary EU Law.

And it's not a case that they "should" be written into national law, they "must" be unless there is a derogation etc.

Emmadilema123

Dundalkian wrote: »

I was joking. I think theres a height limit but the chances of being stopped by the gardaí cause of it are extremely slim and i doubt they would do anything more than tell you not to do it again.

The booster addresses the height issue.

ted1

GM228 wrote: »

A directive is an EU legislative act, and a directive is classed as a form of secondary EU Law. It's generally referred to as "EU Law" by the EU!

And it's not a case that they "should" be written into national law, they "must" be unless there is a derogation etc.

Just because they must doesn't mean they are.
You can call it EU law if you want but unless it's written to Irish law you are not breaking the law

trixychic

GM228 wrote: »

Rubbish and BS?

A directive is an EU legislative act, and a directive is classed as a form of secondary EU Law.

And it's not a case that they "should" be written into national law, they "must" be unless there is a derogation etc.

I thought EU directives were suggestions. Not all of their directives are put into Irish law.

GM228

ted1 wrote: »

Just because they must doesn't mean they are.
You can call it EU law if you want but unless it's written to Irish law you are not breaking the law

Who mentioned breaking Irish law?

It's not that I'm calling it EU Law, it is EU Law, that's what it is called!

The EU Directive is backed up by Irish legislation by the way.

GM228

trixychic wrote: »

I thought EU directives were suggestions. Not all of their directives are put into Irish law.

No you are thinking of EU Recommendations, not all directives are put into law only when there are specific exemptions, timeframes for implementation or an opt-out, and an opt-out can apply only to certain categories of directives.

okonomiyaki

sunny2004 wrote: »

I might need to put my daughter in the front seat of my car, she is 9.

Now I have looked online and find the information either confusion or out of date.

Does anyne know if it's legal to put a 9yr old in the front seat with the appropriate booster seat ?

Thanks.

I phoned the Gardai about this a few years ago on behalf of someone who was quite upset after being told off by some random person for doing it. Apparently once the child is in an appropriate car seat for their height and weight, it is legal for a child to sit in the front.

Boosters arent really that safe though, i think they are going to ban them eventually. A few countries already have. Children should be in High Backed Boosters until they are the right height for the seat belt in the car. The amount of kids who sit in a booster at 4 years old and have the belt touching their chin or put it under their arm is just crazy. I cant believe the things i see sometimes. A simple booster doesnt cut it, but it will take a while before culture changes on that one.

A lot of people here are saying that kids are safer in the back. This isnt always the case. For example, (though not relevant to your 9 year old) children are 5 times safer rear facing than forward facing. So a rear facing seat in the front (with airbag off) is 5 times safer than a forward facing seat in the back. A lot of car seats now are coming out that can hold a child rear facing until 5 or 6 years old.

Emmadilema123

okonomiyaki wrote: »

I phoned the Gardai about this a few years ago on behalf of someone who was quite upset after being told off by some random person for doing it. Apparently once the child is in an appropriate car seat for their height and weight, it is legal for a child to sit in the front.

Boosters arent really that safe though, i think they are going to ban them eventually. A few countries already have. Children should be in High Backed Boosters until they are the right height for the seat belt in the car. The amount of kids who sit in a booster at 4 years old and have the belt touching their chin or put it under their arm is just crazy. I cant believe the things i see sometimes. A simple booster doesnt cut it, but it will take a while before culture changes on that one.

A lot of people here are saying that kids are safer in the back. This isnt always the case. For example, (though not relevant to your 9 year old) children are 5 times safer rear facing than forward facing. So a rear facing seat in the front (with airbag off) is 5 times safer than a forward facing seat in the back. A lot of car seats now are coming out that can hold a child rear facing until 5 or 6 years old.

My own car seat is in 2 parts. I have never used it with just the booster and j ever will. I don't see any advantage of taking away the high back. It doesn't make any more room in the car. It seems strange that ppl would use only the booster if they have the 2 parts especially considering the high back has side impact protection.

trixychic

Oh for God sake. This is Irish law we are talking about.

In the RSA website on page stating its "THE LAW"!!!! it clearly states

"There is no law against children sitting in the front seat, as long as they are using the right child restraint for their height and weight."

And here's the link.
http://www.rsa.ie/en/RSA/Road-Safety/Campaigns/Current-road-safety-campaigns/No-Child-Car-Seat---No-Excuse/The-Law/

Seriously what more is needed????

GM228

trixychic wrote: »

Oh for God sake. This is Irish law we are talking about.

In the RSA website on page stating its "THE LAW"!!!! it clearly states

"There is no law against children sitting in the front seat, as long as they are using the right child restraint for their height and weight."

And here's the link.
http://www.rsa.ie/en/RSA/Road-Safety/Campaigns/Current-road-safety-campaigns/No-Child-Car-Seat---No-Excuse/The-Law/

Seriously what more is needed????

And when was it last updated I wonder?

I am talking about Irish law, the RSA guide is incorrect.

In 2014 the revevant 2006 Irish Law was amended to comply with the EU Directive which for example lowered the 150cm height and provided the fromt seat law for vehicles with no safety systems which I mentioned earlier.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2014/si/380/made/en/print

Appropriate child restraint is now as per EU Law!

Big Bag of Chips

okonomiyaki wrote: »

A lot of people here are saying that kids are safer in the back. This isnt always the case. For example, (though not relevant to your 9 year old) children are 5 times safer rear facing than forward facing. So a rear facing seat in the front (with airbag off) is 5 times safer than a forward facing seat in the back.

Sure you could go through all the various permutations then if you like..

Rear facing in the front v Rear facing in the back
Forward facing in the front v Rear facing in the back
Unrestrained in the back v Restrained in the front
Seat properly installed in the front v Incorrectly installed in the back

Etc etc etc etc etc

None of it makes any difference to the question the OP asked. It is not illegal for a child of any age, shape, size, weight, height to be carried in the front seat of a car once they are in an appropriate car seat/booster/high back booster/restraint.

ted1

GM228 wrote: »

Who mentioned breaking Irish law?

It's not that I'm calling it EU Law, it is EU Law, that's what it is called!

The EU Directive is backed up by Irish legislation by the way.

And with regards the specific topic , please do reference the relative S.I

ted1

Emmadilema123 wrote: »

My own car seat is in 2 parts. I have never used it with just the booster and j ever will. I don't see any advantage of taking away the high back. It doesn't make any more room in the car. It seems strange that ppl would use only the booster if they have the 2 parts especially considering the high back has side impact protection.

And if they do , they never use seatbelt tensioner that is supplied

ted1

GM228 wrote: »

And when was it last updated I wonder?

I am talking about Irish law, the RSA guide is incorrect.

In 2014 the revevant 2006 Irish Law was amended to comply with the EU Directive which for example lowered the 150cm height and provided the fromt seat law for vehicles with no safety systems which I mentioned earlier.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2014/si/380/made/en/print

Appropriate child restraint is now as per EU Law!

You said that it's illegal for a child over 3 and under 150 be in the front. You have not yet provided any fact to back up you claim. We all acknowledge that they need to be in appropriate car seats.

Emmadilema123

ted1 wrote: »

And if they do , they never use seatbelt tensioner that is supplied

Yeah I've seen that. Can people not see the seatbelt coming across their child's neck?

GM228

ted1 wrote: »

You said that it's illegal for a child over 3 and under 150 be in the front

Re-read what I wrote, it's in relation to a vehicle with no seatbelt, and I never said it was illegal either.

GM228 wrote:

Despite what Google or the RSA say there is a law about children in front seats although it's just in relation to vehicles with no safety systems.

Under EU law (Directive 2003/20/EC) a child over age 3 and under 150cm height can't legally be in a front seat.

ted1 wrote: »

You have not yet provided any fact to back up you claim. We all acknowledge that they need to be in appropriate car seats.

Link was provided in the same post!

"GM228 wrote:

http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=celex%3A32003L0020

without prejudice to point (ii), children aged three and over and less than 150 cm in height shall occupy a seat other than a front seat;

Jesus.

okonomiyaki wrote: »

I phoned the Gardai about this a few years ago on behalf of someone who was quite upset after being told off by some random person for doing it. Apparently once the child is in an appropriate car seat for their height and weight, it is legal for a child to sit in the front.

Classic example of some interfering sh1t bag who should mind their own.

ted1

GM228 wrote: »

Re-read what I wrote, it's in relation to a vehicle with no seatbelt!






Link was provided in the same post!

"GM228 wrote:

http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=celex%3A32003L0020

Link is eu directive and not relevant to the question with regards Irish Law

GM228

ted1 wrote: »

GM228 wrote: »

Re-read what I wrote, it's in relation to a vehicle with no seatbelt!






Link was provided in the same post!

Link is eu directive and not relevant to the question with regards Irish Law

It's very relevant!

Perhaps you missed the post where I showed that Irish law works off the EU directives in relation to appropriate child restraint which dictates age, height, weight and when just an adults seatbelt can be used etc.

Rather than go through each piece of legislative text I'll highlight the heading and footnotes of the Irish legislation I highlighted:-

I, PASCHAL DONOHOE, Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport, in exercise of the powers conferred on me by section 3 of the European Communities Act 1972 (No. 27 of 1972) and for the purpose of giving effect to Commission Implementing Directive 2014/37/EU of 27 February 20141 , hereby make the following regulations:


These Regulations give effect to Commission Implementing Directive 2014/37/EU of 27 February 2014 which provides for enhanced requirements for child restraint systems.

There's also this in Irish law - only difference is it dosn't specify height.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2006/si/240/made/en/print

7(2)

A child of 3 years of age or more may be carried on a seat (other than a front seat) of a relevant vehicle which is not equipped with belt anchorages.

The directive is more favourable as it specifies a height and so would apply in a court of law and override domestic law even if not specifically mentioned in Irish law if someone so wishes to use it as a defence.

ted1 wrote: »

And with regards the specific topic , please do reference the relative S.I

Just in relation to the above, do you realise that directives don't actually have to be implemented via a statutory instrument, they can be implemented via Statute/ministerial regulation as opposed to a statutory instrument, but a statutory instrument is generally the way they are implemented or transpositioned.

As per Irish Law any act adopted by the EU as per the EU Treaties is legally binding on Ireland (unless there an opt-out, derogation etc) and is part of domestic law-without prejudice to which any act of the EU has the force of law in Ireland.

In other words as per Irish Law an EU Directive (which is a legislative act) is a part of Irish domestic law.

So perhaps you should re-think your "there's so much rubbish and BS behind spread here. Folks if you don't know the law , stop giving answers that you think is law" statement considering the directives I mentioned has been implemented/transpositioned into Irish law.

sunny2004

UPDATE

Ok, as there is clearly 2 camps of thoughts on this, both convincing, some with links to back up their argument, I decided on Saturday to make a few calls..

First call to An Garda Síochána HeadquartersAddress:Phoenix Park, Dublin 8, D08 HN3X.
Telephone:+353 1 666 0000

I was told there was an age/height restriction. I mentioned the ROAD SAFETY AUTORITY WEBSITE, the response was, "ok, I tell you what to do, call the TRAFFIC SECTION, they will be able to give you a definitive answer..

Call 2. Traffic division 01- 6669800

Asked if it would be legal to put a child in the front seat. Gave the age of the child.
Response, "why would you want to do that ? "
I responded "you sound exactly like a Garda haha, I explained it was a once off, but I wanted to know exactly what the legal situation was.."

The Garda explained it was a Age/height issue, as a "GENERAL RULE" the child must be over 12. The next part shocked me, without prompting he said he was aware of the RSA website information, and he said it was incorrect under current law.. He also added that its unlikely any guard is going to prosecute anyone for this if the child has the appropriate booster seat for their age etc, but that I need to be aware that it is in fact illegal.

I found the Garda very helpful and if anyone else has the time to confirm this position, Garda Traffic can be contacted on 01- 6669800 or http://www.garda.ie/stations/default.aspx for a full list of Garda Stations..

bladespin

Don't even think about asking about kids riding pillion lol.

Red Kev

Second Toughest in_the Freshers wrote: »

Jaysis, I remember 7 of us packed into a car getting a lift to a match. Two in the front passenger seat, 4 in the back, and the smallest lad up behind the back headrests...

We used to beat the heads off each other to see who would get to sit in the rear luggae compartment of our Aunts Beetle. Two in that, 5 in the back seat and two more up front with her. All of us in to watch the Paddy's Day parade.

Two of us in the open boot of a K20 Corolla on the 3 mile run to and from the bog every day for a fotnight in summer.

sunny2004

GM228 wrote: »

Yes the RSA site is incorrect as I already stated, but "as general rule", what's that supposed to mean.

The age 12 requirenent was removed in 2014.

I have no idea, I'm assuming he was simplifying the regulations as I am neither a Garda or solicitor.

I supplied the phone numbers if you wish to get clarification.

GM228

My post deleted when updating it by accident so re-posted

sunny2004 wrote: »

UPDATE

Ok, as there is clearly 2 camps of thoughts on this, both convincing, some with links to back up their argument, I decided on Saturday to make a few calls..

First call to An Garda Síochána HeadquartersAddress:Phoenix Park, Dublin 8, D08 HN3X.

Telephone:+353 1 666 0000

I was told there was an age/height restriction. I mentioned the ROAD SAFETY AUTORITY WEBSITE, the response was, "ok, I tell you what to do, call the TRAFFIC SECTION, they will be able to give you a definitive answer..

Call 2. Traffic division 01- 6669800

Asked if it would be legal to put a child in the front seat. Gave the age of the child.

Response, "why would you want to do that ? "

I responded "you sound exactly like a Garda haha, I explained it was a once off, but I wanted to know exactly what the legal situation was.."

The Garda explained it was a Age/height issue, as a "GENERAL RULE" the child must be over 12. The next part shocked me, without prompting he said he was aware of the RSA website information, and he said it was incorrect under current law.. He also added that its unlikely any guard is going to prosecute anyone for this if the child has the appropriate booster seat for their age etc, but that I need to be aware that it is in fact illegal.

I found the Garda very helpful and if anyone else has the time to confirm this position, Garda Traffic can be contacted on 01- 6669800 or http://www.garda.ie/stations/default.aspx for a full list of Garda Stations..

Yes the RSA site is incorrect as I already stated, but "as general rule", what's that supposed to mean.

The age 12 requirenent was removed in 2003 from the EU Directives and the appropriate directive SI was introduced here in 2006.

The appropriate EU Directive 91/671/EEC Article 2 used to specify the age 12 requirement:-

http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/en/ALL/?uri=CELEX:31991L0671

Article 2

Member States shall ensure that the driver and passengers occupying the seats of vehicles on the road as referred to in Article 1 wear safety belts or are restrained by an approved restraint system provided the occupied seats are fitted with such equipment. Rear-seat occupants must use equipped seats before others.



Member States shall ensure that children under 12 years of age and who are less than 150 cm tall, travelling in such vehicles and occupying belted seats, are restrained by an approved restraint system suitable for the child's height and weight. These seats must be occupied before the others.

The use of a restraint system approved by the competent authority of a Member State shall be permitted by the other Member States.

However EU Directive 2003/20/EC amended Article 2 to say:-

http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=celex%3A32003L0020

Directive 91/671/EEC is hereby amended as follows:



3. Article 2 shall be replaced by the following:


"Article 2

1. M1, N1, N2 and N3 vehicles:

(a) (i) for M1, NI, N2 and N3 vehicles, Member States shall require that all occupants of vehicles in use shall use the safety systems provided.

Children less than 150 cm in height occupying M1, N1, N2 and N3 vehicles fitted with safety systems shall be restrained by an integral or non-integral child-restraint system, within the meaning of Article 1(4)(a) and (b), suitable for the child's mass as defined in Article 1(3);

in M1, N1, N2 and N3 vehicles that are not fitted with safety systems:

- children under three years of age may not be transported,

- without prejudice to point (ii), children aged three and over and less than 150 cm in height shall occupy a seat other than a front seat;

(ii) Member States may allow, in their territory, children of less than 150 cm in height and of at least 135 cm in height to be restrained by a safety belt for adults. These height limits shall be re-examined according to the procedure referred to in Article 7b(2);



(iii) Member States may, however, allow, in their territory, those children referred to in (i) and (ii) not to be restrained by a child-restraint system when travelling in taxis. However, when the abovementioned children are travelling in taxis not fitted with restraint systems they shall occupy a seat other than a front seat;

(b) children may not be transported using a rearward-facing child-restraint system in a passenger seat protected by a front air bag, unless the air bag has been deactivated, even in cases where the air bag is automatically deactivated in a sufficient manner;

(c) where a child-restraint system is used, it shall be approved to the standards of UN-ECE Regulation 44/03 or Directive 77/541/EEC, or any other subsequent adaptation thereto;

(d) until 9 May 2008 Member States may permit the use of child-restraint systems approved in accordance with the national standards applicable in the Member State on the date of installation of the restraint system or with national standards equivalent to Regulation 44/03 of the United Nations Economic Commission for Europe or Directive 75/541/EEC.



2. M2 and M3 vehicles:

(a) Member States shall require that all occupants aged three and over of M2 and M3 vehicles in use shall use the safety systems provided while they are seated.



Child restraints shall be approved in accordance with paragraph (1)(c) and (d);



(b) passengers in M2 and M3 vehicles shall be informed of the requirement to wear safety belts whenever they are seated and the vehicle is in motion. They shall be informed in one or more of the following ways:

- by the driver,

- by the conductor, courier or official designated as group leader,

- by audio-visual means (e.g. video),

- by signs and/or the pictogram established by the Member States in accordance with the Community design in the Annex, prominently displayed at every seating position.";

As you can see there is no age 12 requirement. Infact age 12 isn't and never was specifically written into domestic law, just the directive which is now amended.

Both these directives and the 2014 directive have been implemented/transpositioned into Irish law, but the huge problem with referencing to EU Directives in Irish law is the Gardaí arn't always aware of such changes without specifically reading the EU Directive as opposed to Irish law.

If a Guard did try do you for having an 11 year old for example then once the child satisfied the height/weight requirements then such a case would have to be thrown out.