Guinness Pro12 2016-2017

Cathalthesmart

Tigerandahalf wrote: »

Ulster really need to find the right balance in that backline. Big test for Kiss to get the right blend.

They still have the same tendency to crab across the field and I am not sure if mentally they have that edge yet.

They still need to learn to grind out games and take their penalties when they come and build a score.

Weak in reserve at scrumhalf/10 and in the prop positions. Plus their backrow is limited. I guess Henderson will play more at 6 which is not his best position.

I just think their pack isn't good enough to give the backline the platform it needs.

Be interesting to see what happens when Payne comes back. I'd prefer to see him at fullback. Maybe try Piatau at 13.

Sure you could say the exact same thing about Glasgow, there 9 is average and there is nothing behind him, they had to play a centre at 10 vs Leinster and there props aren't very good either.

When Payne comes back I'd play CP at 13 and Payne at 15. LM and SM are likely out next week so there is opportunity there.

bilston

Tigerandahalf wrote: »

Ulster really need to find the right balance in that backline. Big test for Kiss to get the right blend.

They still have the same tendency to crab across the field and I am not sure if mentally they have that edge yet.

They still need to learn to grind out games and take their penalties when they come and build a score.

Weak in reserve at scrumhalf/10 and in the prop positions. Plus their backrow is limited. I guess Henderson will play more at 6 which is not his best position.

I just think their pack isn't good enough to give the backline the platform it needs.

Be interesting to see what happens when Payne comes back. I'd prefer to see him at fullback. Maybe try Piatau at 13.

We haven't needed to grind out a result in fairness.

I think our pack is better than people think, but then maybe our backline aren't quite well oiled machine people think either. Henderson and Best starting next week will add a lot of edge to the forwards. Trimble on the wing will bring experience and an ability to finish off more of those chances.

As for not taking our chances, well I suppose at the moment the positive is that we're creating them.

Oh and just on depth at prop, I think the emergence of Ross Kane suggests we're going to be ok there. Rodders is doing a decent job and we have Herbst to come back. We are well stocked at LH with McCall, Black and Warwick and have Best and Herring at hooker which is as good a pairing as you can ask for really.

Still we've beaten three average teams so far, although I think that despite their poor start the Scarlets are a decent team, the next three weeks will tell us more about ourselves with Glasgow (a), Ospreys (h) and Connacht (a).

Tigerandahalf

bilston wrote: »

We haven't needed to grind out a result in fairness.

I think our pack is better than people think, but then maybe our backline aren't quite well oiled machine people think either. Henderson and Best starting next week will add a lot of edge to the forwards. Trimble on the wing will bring experience and an ability to finish off more of those chances.

As for not taking our chances, well I suppose at the moment the positive is that we're creating them.

Oh and just on depth at prop, I think the emergence of Ross Kane suggests we're going to be ok there. Rodders is doing a decent job and we have Herbst to come back. We are well stocked at LH with McCall, Black and Warwick and have Best and Herring at hooker which is as good a pairing as you can ask for really.

Still we've beaten three average teams so far, although I think that despite their poor start the Scarlets are a decent team, the next three weeks will tell us more about ourselves with Glasgow (a), Ospreys (h) and Connacht (a).

3 tough fixtures. Ross Kane is still very inexperienced. Until we see him against the bigger boys we won't know. Herbst is always injured and Ah You can't be depended on.
Black, McCall and Warwick are all just about pro12 level. Not sure if they will cut it in the big games.

Herring I would still have issues with his lineout throwing. Even Rory has issues.

With Coetzee out injured for a good while the backrow you would feel will struggle against the better backrows in the pro12 and Europe.

Cathalthesmart

Tigerandahalf wrote: »

3 tough fixtures. Ross Kane is still very inexperienced. Until we see him against the bigger boys we won't know. Herbst is always injured and Ah You can't be depended on.
Black, McCall and Warwick are all just about pro12 level. Not sure if they will cut it in the big games.

Herring I would still have issues with his lineout throwing. Even Rory has issues.

With Coetzee out injured for a good while the backrow you would feel will struggle against the better backrows in the pro12 and Europe.

I got a better idea, lets stop talking up our opposition all the time and being pessimistic about our own team. They can only play whats in front of them and those 3 games they looks more than up for it and we will only have proof that they aren't when someone stops them.

former total

Tigerandahalf wrote: »

Be interesting to see what happens when Payne comes back. I'd prefer to see him at fullback. Maybe try Piatau at 13.

Cathalthesmart wrote: »

When Payne comes back I'd play CP at 13 and Payne at 15. LM and SM are likely out next week so there is opportunity there.

I'm sure I speak for all the fans of the other 11 teams when I say that I really hope Ulster play Piutau at 13 and Payne at 15.

Cathalthesmart

former total wrote: »

I'm sure I speak for all the fans of the other 11 teams when I say that I really hope Ulster play Piutau at 13 and Payne at 15.

Based on how CP played at 13 last season I wouldn't be so optimistic either.

irishbucsfan

Cathalthesmart wrote: »

Based on how CP played at 13 last season I wouldn't be so optimistic either.

CP barely played 13 last season, only a couple of games when Elliot Daly and Macken weren't available, he's much better at 15 and Ulster would be mad not to play him there unless their many other centers are unavailable

bilston

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Cathalthesmart wrote: »

Based on how CP played at 13 last season I wouldn't be so optimistic either.

CP barely played 13 last season, only a couple of games when Elliot Daly and Macken weren't available, he's much better at 15 and Ulster would be mad not to play him there unless their many other centers are unavailable

I'd say Payne will play 15, particularly if Kearney is out for any length of time as Ireland will need him to play there. Piutau and Trimble on the wings.

When Bowe comes back I suppose we might see Payne move to 13 with CP at 15. It depends on how good Tommy is on his return.

Whatever the make up of the side I'd hope Piutau at 13 isn't really part of the conversation unless absolutely necessary.

awec

Piutau would be wasted on the wing IMO. Be much more difficult to get him involved.

irishbucsfan

bilston wrote: »

I'd say Payne will play 15, particularly if Kearney is out for any length of time as Ireland will need him to play there. Piutau and Trimble on the wings.

When Bowe comes back I suppose we might see Payne move to 13 with CP at 15. It depends on how good Tommy is on his return.

Whatever the make up of the side I'd hope Piutau at 13 isn't really part of the conversation unless absolutely necessary.

If Ulster aren't going to play Piutau at 15 they could do with him on the wing, but with Henshaw out injured Ireland are probably looking to Payne to play 13. Ideally we'd see Payne at 15 and Marshall at 13 with Piutau on the wing, gets the most out of the talent.

awec

Payne would make a great #23.

The IRFU wouldn't like it but stuff them, not feeling too generous toward them at this particular time.

irishbucsfan

awec wrote: »

Piutau would be wasted on the wing IMO. Be much more difficult to get him involved.

I think he'd be much more effective on the wing than at 13 anyway. Certainly looked that way last season.

bilston

awec wrote: »

Piutau would be wasted on the wing IMO. Be much more difficult to get him involved.

Ah I dunno. On Friday night Gilroy touched the balls loads of times. We.tend to get the ball into our wingers hands quite a bit.

I know you aren't his biggest fan for whatever reason but there is no way whatsoever Payne doesn't play. We have 4 backs absolutely 100% guarenteed a spot in the team and they are Pienaar, Jackson, Piutau and Payne. Trimble is possibly a 5th. It's just a matter of where they play.

former total

If everyone is fit, then Bowe, Trimble, Payne and Piutau all play. Olding and McCloskey are fighting over 12. Marshall's career is looking precarious anyway but he won't break in at 13 yet.

The odds on everyone being fit at any given time are pretty long so chances are it won't be an issue.

awec

Marshall is Ulster's best 13 so I don't see how he doesn't "break in".

irishbucsfan

awec wrote: »

Marshall is Ulster's best 13 so I don't see how he doesn't "break in".

Yeah I'd disagree with FT there, Marshall seems pretty likely to play a lot of rugby at 13 this year from where I'm sitting. One of Trimble or Bowe more likely to miss out for me.

bilston

15 Payne
14 Trimble
13 Marshall
12 Olding
11 Piutau
10 Jackson
9 Pienaar

To me that's our best backline. I don't think Piutau would be wasted on the wing. I watched him win MOTM from the wing for the ABs away to SA last year. We just have to make sure he gets on the ball a lot.

A fully fit and on form Bowe will confuse matters, and if we were up against a particularly big midfield you'd probably stick McCloskey in as a horses for courses selection.

Nice problems to have in fairness.

former total

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Yeah I'd disagree with FT there, Marshall seems pretty likely to play a lot of rugby at 13 this year from where I'm sitting. One of Trimble or Bowe more likely to miss out for me.

Trimble is the captain, if that carries any weight. If Bowe comes back at even 80% of his ability then he'll get picked. Payne is going to be in the XV whatever happens.

Marshall is a good player but he's not going to be picked ahead of Payne at 13.

But more than likely injuries will decide a lot of this anyway.

irishbucsfan

former total wrote: »

Trimble is the captain, if that carries any weight. If Bowe comes back at even 80% of his ability then he'll get picked. Payne is going to be in the XV whatever happens.

Marshall is a good player but he's not going to be picked ahead of Payne at 13.

But more than likely injuries will decide a lot of this anyway.

I don't see why not. He played better at 13 for Ulster throughout last season than Payne has done. At a certain point he has to have won the jersey.

awec

If it's a straight choice between Marshall or Payne at 13 then based on performances there in the past year and a bit Marshall is the clear pick.

former total

irishbucsfan wrote: »

I don't see why not. He played better at 13 for Ulster throughout last season than Payne has done. At a certain point he has to have won the jersey.

Just to be clear; this is what I think will/would happen if everyone is fit. I'm not a huge fan of Payne at 13 either but Kiss is and I think he'll be picked there.

Payne's move to 15 last year happened in the complete absence of anyone else who could play fullback. It wasn't by choice; they had no one else. Piutau and Ludik being back changes that.

Felix Jones is God

I know it's controversial, and lord knows I hate being so.....but shouldn't our best players be picked in their best positions...

irishbucsfan

former total wrote: »

Just to be clear; this is what I think will/would happen if everyone is fit. I'm not a huge fan of Payne at 13 either but Kiss is and I think he'll be picked there.

Payne's move to 15 last year happened in the complete absence of anyone else who could play fullback. It wasn't by choice; they had no one else. Piutau and Ludik being back changes that.

Unless I'm missing something... Ludik was fit when Payne came back in at 15 last year? In fact he started at 15 the next week after the Champions Cup games that Payne started at 15.

former total

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Unless I'm missing something... Ludik was fit when Payne came back in at 15 last year? In fact he started at 15 the next week after the Champions Cup games that Payne started at 15.

No, he wasn't fit. He came back from injury for the game you've linked above (when Payne was on Ireland duty), played the following week, then was gone for the rest of the season.

So we don't know where Payne would have played if he, Ludik and Marshall were all fit last year.

irishbucsfan

former total wrote: »

No, he wasn't fit. He came back from injury for the game you've linked above (when Payne was on Ireland duty), played the following week, then was gone for the rest of the season.

So we don't know where Payne would have played if he, Ludik and Marshall were all fit last year.

I actually don't really know when he was injured so you're probably right, Ludik did also start at 15 a couple of weeks before against Munster and I didn't see any mention of injury but he could well have been injured in between. It'll be interesting to see how it goes.

thomond2006

Leinster vs Ospreys and Ulster vs Glasgow are clashing tonight. Stupid scheduling.

awec

thomond2006 wrote: »

Leinster vs Ospreys and Ulster vs Glasgow are clashing tonight. Stupid scheduling.

Mentioned in the Ulster thread.

A good example of how bad this league is at marketing itself.

former total

thomond2006 wrote: »

Leinster vs Ospreys and Ulster vs Glasgow are clashing tonight. Stupid scheduling.

It's unfortunate but it's just a reflection of the situation the league finds itself in with numerous regional broadcasters rather than one exclusive carrier.

TG4 show their games on Fridays. BBCNI show their games on Fridays. Clashes are inevitable.

Not sure what the league could have done really

thomond2006

former total wrote: »

It's unfortunate but it's just a reflection of the situation the league finds itself in with numerous regional broadcasters rather than one exclusive carrier.

TG4 show their games on Fridays. BBCNI show their games on Fridays. Clashes are inevitable.

Not sure what the league could have done really

I know Ulster/BBCNI love their Friday kickoffs but surely at least 2/3 a year could be moved to Saturdays.

bilston

thomond2006 wrote: »

former total wrote: »

It's unfortunate but it's just a reflection of the situation the league finds itself in with numerous regional broadcasters rather than one exclusive carrier.

TG4 show their games on Fridays. BBCNI show their games on Fridays. Clashes are inevitable.

Not sure what the league could have done really

I know Ulster/BBCNI love their Friday kickoffs but surely at least 2/3 a year could be moved to Saturdays.

Our Sky games are moved to Saturdays already. Next week for example we play the Ospreys on a Sat.

Besides this is Glagow's home game, I assume BBC Alba or whoever is covering it in Scotland are the primary rights holder.

former total

bilston wrote: »

Our Sky games are moved to Saturdays already. Next week for example we play the Ospreys on a Sat.

Besides this is Glagow's home game, I assume BBC Alba or whoever is covering it in Scotland are the primary rights holder.

Ah yes, BBC Alba - so they wouldn't care about any clash with an Irish and Welsh team.

former total

And moving either game to tomorrow would see it clash with Scarlets v Connacht.

In fairness lads, we're absolutely spoiled. All four provinces live on TV this weekend, three of them free to air. How many pro sports leagues in the world can you say that about?

irishbucsfan

former total wrote: »

Ah yes, BBC Alba - so they wouldn't care about any clash with an Irish and Welsh team.

But the league do.

People acting as if the league just sit there staring at the wall waiting for the broadcasters to email them the schedule each week. Ultimately it's the league who sign those broadcasting agreements and it's the league who are 100% responsible for any conflicts, there are plenty of operational/contractual models which would prevent this kind of thing from happening.

Winters

There are 6 games every weekend and no games on Sundays so that means only 1 slot on Friday and 2 or 3 on Saturdays. Some clashes are going to be inevitable and unavoidable.

Edit, there is no match at 5pm on Saturday so that may have been an option.

irishbucsfan

Winters wrote: »

There are 6 games every weekend and no games on Sundays so that means only 1 slot on Friday and 2 or 3 on Saturdays. Clashes are going to be inevitable and unavoidable.

Actually, there are games on Sundays this season despite previous claims there wouldn't be.

Noone is saying there shouldn't be clashes. People are saying important games should not be scheduled against each other.

Even ignoring Sundays we have 4 slots to use. Tier the games and ensure that the slots are used optimally.

awec

On the basis of them being the best supported team in the league, and the only team with it's own dedicated TV channel, Ulster should get first dibs on all Friday night fixtures.

Other teams can play on Fridays when playing in minor fixtures.

Podge_irl

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Actually, there are games on Sundays this season despite previous claims there wouldn't be.

Noone is saying there shouldn't be clashes. People are saying important games should not be scheduled against each other.

Even ignoring Sundays we have 4 slots to use. Tier the games and ensure that the slots are used optimally.

I guess what's important to one broadcaster isn't what is important to another.

b.gud

awec wrote: »

On the basis of them being the best supported team in the league, and the only team with it's own dedicated TV channel, Ulster should get first dibs on all Friday night fixtures.

Other teams can play on Fridays when playing in minor fixtures.

ah here

thomond2006

awec wrote: »

On the basis of them being the best supported team in the league, and the only team with it's own dedicated TV channel, Ulster should get first dibs on all Friday night fixtures.

Other teams can play on Fridays when playing in minor fixtures.

Eh...no? No team should have first dibs on anything unless it suits the league as a whole.

irishbucsfan

Podge_irl wrote: »

I guess what's important to one broadcaster isn't what is important to another.

Exactly, or to put it another way, what's important to one broadcaster isn't what's important to the league. So giving them any complete executive power over scheduling is a terrible idea (or even if they don't have executive power at the moment, allowing scheduling like we've seen).

irishbucsfan

thomond2006 wrote: »

Eh...no? No team should have first dibs on anything unless it suits the league as a whole.

The biggest games of a weekend should be played on a Friday night. Ulster can have that slot when they're in a big game or in a game that doesn't hold much relevance.

awec

thomond2006 wrote: »

Eh...no? No team should have first dibs on anything unless it suits the league as a whole.

Pfffft.

No way. Ulster invented Friday nights.

Podge_irl

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Exactly, or to put it another way, what's important to one broadcaster isn't what's important to the league. So giving them any complete executive power over scheduling is a terrible idea (or even if they don't have executive power at the moment, allowing scheduling like we've seen).

I am sure they don't have executive power but broadcaster wishes drive scheduling just as much in every other league and competition. I don't see why the Pro12 would be able to get away from that.

Tigerandahalf

There really shouldn't be clashes. If Sky had full rights no games would be clashing.

Why not have games on a Thurs evening at 7pm.

bilston

Ulster own the rights to Friday nights!

Friday nights = Home from work, Pastie Supper, Ulster Rugby

errlloyd

Tigerandahalf wrote: »

There really shouldn't be clashes. If Sky had full rights no games would be clashing.

Why not have games on a Thurs evening at 7pm.

If Sky had full rights to all the games they would show maximum three games a week, same as BT.

bilston

Tigerandahalf wrote: »

There really shouldn't be clashes. If Sky had full rights no games would be clashing.

Why not have games on a Thurs evening at 7pm.

I have wondered about Thusday nights, I think it's been tried in the Pro 12.

It seems to work ok in the Challenge Cup and let's face it unless it's an Inter Pro or Glasgow and Edinburgh there is no real travelling support in the Pro 12 anyway which would be the big argument against Thursday nights.

bilston

errlloyd wrote: »

Tigerandahalf wrote: »

There really shouldn't be clashes. If Sky had full rights no games would be clashing.

Why not have games on a Thurs evening at 7pm.

If Sky had full rights to all the games they would show maximum three games a week, same as BT.

That's the trade off though with going exclusively with Pay TV. You'd get more money but less exposure.

The Lost Sheep

awec wrote: »

Pfffft.

No way. Ulster invented Friday nights.

yeah...

Tigerandahalf wrote: »

There really shouldn't be clashes. If Sky had full rights no games would be clashing.

Why not have games on a Thurs evening at 7pm.

If sky had full rights there would be half the number of games shown live.

bilston wrote: »

I have wondered about Thusday nights, I think it's been tried in the Pro 12.

It seems to work ok in the Challenge Cup and let's face it unless it's an Inter Pro or Glasgow and Edinburgh there is no real travelling support in the Pro 12 anyway which would be the big argument against Thursday nights.

Tried and didn't really work. And hasn't it mainly been used in stadiums where there is multiple teams using stadium like Dragons and Newport FC

jacothelad

b.gud wrote: »

ah here

Rodney's brother?