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Investigation into Tesla after fatal crash

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24

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    #32
    gctest50
    Registered Users Posts: 9,605 ✭✭✭gctest50


    looking for likes maybe / bit too carried away with the tech




    same lad that got killed :




    2,348,565 views



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    #33
    eeguy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,478 ✭✭✭eeguy


    kyote00 wrote: »
    Its really is the same thing.

    The flip side is saying that drivers didnt monitor the function of the accelerator pedal ....

    In reality, the poor guy probably had only seconds to react...was probably expecting the car to do something....
    :

    Nope. Drivers did monitor the accelerator, and it stuck and didn't know what to do. It was a fundamental flaw in the car.
    If the poor guy actually saw the obstacle and waited for the autopilot then it's his fault. He should have done something.
    In reality it looks like he was busy watching a movie while cruising down the road.
    Then again, perhaps neither the driver or the car could have done anything if the truck driver swerved suddenly.
    But we'll find out soon enough when Tesla review the footage recorded and release a statement.

    At least we'll get a definitive answer, unlike every other car company who don't record the data.


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    #34
    kyote00
    Registered Users Posts: 1,562 ✭✭✭kyote00


    They already released statements where they said that 'autopilot' failed to recognise the articulated truck in front of and perpendicular to the tesla because the sun was shining and it mistook the truck for advertising....WTF.

    The statement then goes on to say autopilot is on "beta" ..... again WTF ... my brakes are only beta

    "In reality it looks like he was busy watching a movie while cruising down the road. "
    Seriously dude, there is no mention of that anywhere

    eeguy wrote: »
    Nope. Drivers did monitor the accelerator, and it stuck and didn't know what to do. It was a fundamental flaw in the car.
    If the poor guy actually saw the obstacle and waited for the autopilot then it's his fault. He should have done something.
    In reality it looks like he was busy watching a movie while cruising down the road.
    Then again, perhaps neither the driver or the car could have done anything if the truck driver swerved suddenly.
    But we'll find out soon enough when Tesla review the footage recorded and release a statement.

    At least we'll get a definitive answer, unlike every other car company who don't record the data.


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    #35
    bertie4evr
    Registered Users Posts: 927 ✭✭✭bertie4evr


    kyote00 wrote: »
    They already released statements where they said that 'autopilot' failed to recognise the articulated truck in front of and perpendicular to the tesla because the sun was shining and it mistook the truck for advertising....WTF.

    The statement then goes on to say autopilot is on "beta" ..... again WTF ... my brakes are only beta

    "In reality it looks like he was busy watching a movie while cruising down the road. "
    Seriously dude, there is no mention of that anywhere

    They found a portable DVD player in the car. I'm guessing that's where it came from, but of course we have no idea what he was doing at the time. What we do know is that he didn't hit the brakes, or intervene in any way.

    Autopilot has been advertised as a beta from the start, the user manual page on it is littered with warnings on how you need to pay attention and it lists a load of situations where it could go wrong.


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    #36
    H3llR4iser
    Registered Users Posts: 4,027 ✭✭✭H3llR4iser


    porsche boy wrote: »
    Does your car do that? Does any?
    Reason I say that is because I have watched a few car crash compilations on you tube and the one thought I am left with is why the ABS system doesn't lock the brakes on in the event of an accident/airbag deployment. Cars seem to just wander off until they hit something that stops them, occasionally causing another crash.

    Completely different, a "normal" car doesn't "drive" for you.

    If the system doesn't have a "stop immediately in case X Gs are exceeded" feature, it's a gigantic oversight. A case where the occupants might be seriously injured and in need of urgent medical assistance, while the vehicle is still in workable conditions is not far fetched - and an automated driving one might keep on going, with little or no way of stopping it. I'd be completely surprised if the engineers in Tesla didn't implement anything along these lines - something that doesn't require remote intervention.


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    #37
    wil
    Registered Users Posts: 4,188 ✭✭✭wil


    richy wrote: »
    I wonder how many people die per 100,000 kms driven in a manually operated car in comparison to a computer controlled car. Would be good to see a comparison.
    Think you need to be looking at several orders of magnitude more than that, ie per billion km driven.
    Ireland would be between 3 or 4 per billion, the worst countries over 50 per billion.
    Would take a few years before you could expect to have any kind of meaningful stats from autonomous cars, but at the same time technology should also be improving.


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    #38
    marno21
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,350 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    Sabre Man wrote: »
    Article on Teslarati about the accident
    http://www.teslarati.com/tesla-model-s-driver-using-autopilot-killed-crash-tractor-trailer/

    It's crazy that it's possible to cross a dual carriageway like that.

    Lots of places like that on the A1 Newry-Belfast and the N25 in Cork. Not uncommon at all


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    #39
    Renegade Mechanic
    Registered Users Posts: 7,934 ✭✭✭Renegade Mechanic


    seamus wrote: »
    Not really an investigation into Tesla, just an investigation into the crash.

    Any road, this was indeed inevitable. The upside here is that once the data is processed and the issue corrected for, it's a scenario that will never happen again in an automated vehicle.

    Unlike with human drivers, where this exact same incident will continue to happen multiple times a day, every day.

    Aw yeah, because humans can't see a ginormous juggernaut crossing the road in front of them. And even if it's close, it won't ever dawn on them to brake or aim for a wheel, so they don't get decapitated under the trailer's skirt :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

    Worrying dependence developing on technology to do things as simple as driving imo. Probably linked to people simply wanting to be held responsible for themselves less and less with each passing year...

    It's alright in the air with miles of space between ye. Not on the ground. I'll take control over automation of ground transport, thanks.
    If it becomes phased out on cars, then I'll get a bike.


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    #40
    gctest50
    Registered Users Posts: 9,605 ✭✭✭gctest50


    Renegade Mechanic wrote: »
    ..............
    It's alright in the air with miles of space between ye. Not on the ground. I'll take control over automation of ground transport, thanks.
    If it becomes phased out on cars, then I'll get a bike.

    GM ignition switches killed 124 + , loose control of steering


    http://money.cnn.com/2015/09/17/news/companies/gm-recall-ignition-switch/


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    #41
    pippip
    Registered Users Posts: 2,249 ✭✭✭pippip


    Rip first off.

    Unfortunately I feel this is a classic case you see with any automation. For the first few hundred miles I'm sure the guy was going round with hovering clenched grip of the wheel and foot an inch from the brake. And then as the miles went into the thousands you'd naturally just trust the system more and more until that point where you would possibly trust it enough to start doing other things while on your journeys.

    I'm all for automated driving but only where dedicated lanes are made for it. Don't feel you can mix and match non automated and automated.


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    #42
    eeguy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,478 ✭✭✭eeguy


    Renegade Mechanic wrote: »
    I'll take control over automation of ground transport, thanks.
    If it becomes phased out on cars, then I'll get a bike.

    I don't understand this thinking.

    Computers run safety critical operations every day and we accept this no problem.
    You won't trust a computer to drive your car, but you trust your airbag, ABS and a multitude of other features to keep you safe if you make a mistake and crash.


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    #43
    Cookie_Monster
    Registered Users Posts: 24,473 ✭✭✭✭Cookie_Monster


    Is there anything to suggest that he would have had the time to react and avoid the truck in a normal car? If you're doing 60-70mph and a truck pulls out directly in front of you there'd be very little time to do anything anyway...


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    #44
    eeguy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,478 ✭✭✭eeguy


    pippip wrote: »
    I'm all for automated driving but only where dedicated lanes are made for it. Don't feel you can mix and match non automated and automated.

    Of course you can. The only way forward is mixed lanes. The cars need to fully rely on their own sensors to deal with the infinite problems they may encounter.

    The issue is that a model S is not an autonomous car and doesn't claim to be. It's a beta cruise control and Lane assist.
    People using it as an autonomous car are putting their own lives at risk.


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    #45
    frozenfrozen
    Registered Users Posts: 7,882 ✭✭✭frozenfrozen


    Cookie_Monster wrote: »
    Is there anything to suggest that he would have had the time to react and avoid the truck in a normal car? If you're doing 60-70mph and a truck pulls out directly in front of you there'd be very little time to do anything anyway...


    forward planning. Would someone texting while driving have been able to avoid it? Maybe not. Would someone paying attention and actually driving properly? Probably


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    #46
    Chuchote
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,368 ✭✭✭Chuchote


    God rest him.

    This seems to have been a failure of technology in how the laser was programmed. Perhaps the makers need to reprogram it so that it will recognise a body that starts 1.5 metres above the ground and continues up to 3 metres above the ground as being a vehicle, not a sign. Perhaps it should recognise a moving body as a vehicle. There are probably a dozen factors that will be used in the next version to prevent this.

    I have to say that when I was driving (I now only cycle or take public transport) there were a good few times when I was squinting into harsh early-morning or late-afternoon sunlight when going directly southeast into dawn sun or directly southwest into setting sun, during which I did not have the ability to see safely enough. I should have had sense enough to pull in and wait an hour, but never did. There is no question but many accidents - and many fatal accidents - must happen in these circumstances.


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    #47
    Renegade Mechanic
    Registered Users Posts: 7,934 ✭✭✭Renegade Mechanic


    gctest50 wrote: »
    GM ignition switches killed 124 + , loose control of steering


    http://money.cnn.com/2015/09/17/news/companies/gm-recall-ignition-switch/

    Still better than not being in control. 124 died, how many lived because they could react in ways a computer could not?

    eeguy wrote: »
    I don't understand this thinking.

    Computers run safety critical operations every day and we accept this no problem.
    You won't trust a computer to drive your car, but you trust your airbag, ABS and a multitude of other features to keep you safe if you make a mistake and crash.

    I trust my brain to avoid situations where they're required to begin with. And in situations out of my control, where they are required, it's still better to be in control. Crashes are rarely one impact, quite often they're a series.
    The first impact can easily knock out sensors/radars. If your car is still careening and you're only hope is now ineffective sensor arrays, you're done... Meanwhile, the lowly pleb with only his brain to help him is still making decisions, likely reducing the total outcome.

    And this is ever before we get into hacking.


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    #48
    Buffman
    Registered Users Posts: 2,756 ✭✭✭Buffman


    kyote00 wrote: »
    "In reality it looks like he was busy watching a movie while cruising down the road. "
    Seriously dude, there is no mention of that anywhere
    bertie4evr wrote: »
    They found a portable DVD player in the car. I'm guessing that's where it came from, but of course we have no idea what he was doing at the time. What we do know is that he didn't hit the brakes, or intervene in any way.

    Ye, It's being reported by witnesses that 'Harry Potter' was still playing in the car after the crash.
    The 62-year-old driver of the tractor trailer, Frank Baressi, told the Associated Press (AP) that the Tesla was driving so quickly that it “went so fast through my trailer I didn’t see him.” Combined with the alleged high rate of speed the Model S was traveling, Baressi tells the AP that he witnessed the Tesla “playing Harry Potter on the TV screen” though he acknowledged that he only heard the movie and couldn’t see it. “It was still playing when he died and snapped a telephone pole a quarter mile down the road,” Baressi tells in an interview with the AP.
    Also reports that the Tesla passed another car which was doing 85mph.

    My own take on these 'autopilots', is that it is the future, but there'll be a massive learning curve for the industry. It'll be similar to the way aviation has evolved over the last few decades. Motor vehicles will end up with a 'TCAS' type system to see each other in real time. But 'Murphy's law' still applies, 'Anything that can go wrong, will go wrong'.

    FYI, if you move to a 'smart' meter electricity plan, you CAN'T move back to a non-smart plan.



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    #49
    bertie4evr
    Registered Users Posts: 927 ✭✭✭bertie4evr


    Buffman wrote: »
    My own take on these 'autopilots', is that it is the future, but there'll be a massive learning curve for the industry. It'll be similar to the way aviation has evolved over the last few decades. Motor vehicles will end up with a 'TCAS' type system to see each other in real time. But 'Murphy's law' still applies, 'Anything that can go wrong, will go wrong'.

    V2V is the solution to that, and it's been approved in the US. So hopefully in the future these cars will have no blind spots and could anticipate an accident sooner.

    One example is I'm behind a BMW, with a Toyota in front of that. The Toyota brakes, sends the signal to the BMW that it's doing an emergency brake and the BMW sends the signal back to me. All the cars would know what the others are doing.


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    #50
    Atomic Pineapple
    Registered Users Posts: 18,272 ✭✭✭✭Atomic Pineapple


    I can't find it now but I had come across a post on Twitter that linked a video claimed to be from the driver of the car that crashed showing him previously abusing the autopilot function. I didn't actually get to see the video so now sure how you would abuse the system?


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    #51
    pablo128
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,221 ✭✭✭pablo128


    bertie4evr wrote: »
    One example is I'm behind a BMW, with a Toyota in front of that. The Toyota brakes, sends the signal to the BMW that it's doing an emergency brake and the BMW sends the signal back to me. All the cars would know what the others are doing.

    All well and good until you have a Renault in front. I'd be a bit nervous putting my life in the hands of a French electrical system!:pac:


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    #52
    eeguy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,478 ✭✭✭eeguy


    bertie4evr wrote: »
    V2V is the solution to that, and it's been approved in the US. So hopefully in the future these cars will have no blind spots and could anticipate an accident sooner.

    One example is I'm behind a BMW, with a Toyota in front of that. The Toyota brakes, sends the signal to the BMW that it's doing an emergency brake and the BMW sends the signal back to me. All the cars would know what the others are doing.

    The new haulage trucks have that system so they can organise convoys where only the driver at the front does any work.


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    #53
    Chuchote
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,368 ✭✭✭Chuchote


    eeguy wrote: »
    The new haulage trucks have that system so they can organise convoys where only the driver at the front does any work.

    As a cyclist, that scares the bejapers out of me. Why don't they just use the railways!


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    #54
    Atomic Pineapple
    Registered Users Posts: 18,272 ✭✭✭✭Atomic Pineapple


    Chuchote wrote: »
    As a cyclist, that scares the bejapers out of me. Why don't they just use the railways!

    I believe it only works on Motorways, I hope you're not cycling on motorways :p


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    #55
    2RockMountain
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,012 ✭✭✭2RockMountain


    Renegade Mechanic wrote: »

    It's alright in the air with miles of space between ye. Not on the ground. I'll take control over automation of ground transport, thanks.
    If it becomes phased out on cars, then I'll get a bike.

    As a regular cyclist, I'll be far more comfortable with computer controlled cars than the large number of idiot-controlled cars out there today. Just to put this one death in context, about 100 people are killed on the roads in the USA every day by idiot-controlled cars and trucks.


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    #56
    eeguy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,478 ✭✭✭eeguy


    2RockMountain wrote: »
    As a regular cyclist, I'll be far more comfortable with computer controlled cars than the large number of idiot-controlled cars out there today. Just to put this one death in context, about 100 people are killed on the roads in the USA every day by idiot-controlled cars and trucks.

    Yep. There are car crashes every minute of every day around the world.
    Cars go up in flames all the time, one on the m50 yesterday for instance.

    Yet the world loses its sh*t every time a tesla or a Google car crashes, saying that autonomous cars are bad and going to kill us all, despite all evidence to the contrary, and you have the usual uninformed idiots with remarks like "we'll my POS PC freezes all the time, so I'm never going to trust a self driving car".

    Autonomous cars are the way forward and will start to appear in the next 5-10 years.

    And 15 years later people will wonder how they lived their lives without a self driving car and how backwards they were pressing pedals and turning a wheel like a child.


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    #57
    iseedeadpeople
    Registered Users Posts: 31 ✭iseedeadpeople


    Shannon757 wrote: »
    It's the first fatal accident in 130 million miles. Not bad for new technology but tragic all the same.

    True but it will be blown up and over exaggerated.

    I mean in America what's number 1 issue?

    Terrorism. Billions spent a year if nor trillions over last decade. Yet 3500 people died. From 2000 till 2016

    Traffic accidents kills 35000 a year and where is outrage at that?

    One EV involved in fatal it will be the worse thing ever just watch


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    #58
    Mycroft H
    Registered Users Posts: 9,316 ✭✭✭Mycroft H


    seamus wrote: »
    Not really an investigation into Tesla, just an investigation into the crash.

    Any road, this was indeed inevitable. The upside here is that once the data is processed and the issue corrected for, it's a scenario that will never happen again in an automated vehicle.

    Unlike with human drivers, where this exact same incident will continue to happen multiple times a day, every day.

    Well I hope they're going to investigate other Teslas. If an accident happened to an aircraft while on Autopilot, you don't think the NTSB would be making recommendations or grounding various planes? It's happened before.

    This is an aside to why the driver wasn't at least paying attention to what's going on around him.


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    #59
    eeguy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,478 ✭✭✭eeguy


    There will be an investigation and then a software update to the cars.

    It's amazing how scrutinised Tesla is compared to other manufacturers.
    When a Tesla went on fire a few years ago it made headlines around the world.

    When that car went on fire yesterday the headline was "2 hour delay on M50".
    It didn't even report the make of model.

    It was a BMW X5 BTW.


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    #60
    bertie4evr
    Registered Users Posts: 927 ✭✭✭bertie4evr


    eeguy wrote: »
    There will be an investigation and then a software update to the cars.

    It's amazing how scrutinised Tesla is compared to other manufacturers.
    When a Tesla went on fire a few years ago it made headlines around the world.

    When that car went on fire yesterday the headline was "2 hour delay on M50".
    It didn't even report the make of model.

    It was a BMW X5 BTW.

    They're the Apple of the car world, they have the loyal fans who can hear no bad about them and there's the press who crucify them whenever there's any slip up.


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    #61
    Renegade Mechanic
    Registered Users Posts: 7,934 ✭✭✭Renegade Mechanic


    bertie4evr wrote: »
    They're the Apple of the car world, they have the loyal fans who can hear no bad about them and there's the press who crucify them whenever there's any slip up.

    Ah no, in fairness I'll give Tesla that much credit at least - they haven't had to install nets around their factories to catch workers who have had enough.

    But I'm not sure the company is even viable without all the rather ironically named "green rebates" they're getting.


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