Off Topic Thread 3.0

awec

Felix Jones is God wrote: »

Well that's a bit self evident. It's 2 completely different sports . We've seen many top amateurs fail miserably in the paid ranks, and also some poor amateurs become world champions.

True that.

In other boxing news, when is Anthony Joshua going to fight someone who isn't a bum?

Felix Jones is God

awec wrote: »

True that.

In other boxing news, when is Anthony Joshua going to fight someone who isn't a bum?

New champ and he's young, he's got to fight what the organization throw his way, I think Parker is next. But I'd say inside the next 12 months we'll see either Wilder or Haye in the ring with him.
Can't see Fury and Joshua ever happening

Synode

Think we discussed the extortionate price of Stone Roses tickets on here before.

For anyone who wanted to go but couldn't justify the price, there's some bargains to be had on www.toutless.com at the minute

Neil3030

Andy Lee could do well in amateur rules.

thomond2006

So what was Boris Johnson playing at?

thomond2006

thomond2006 wrote: »

So what was Boris Johnson playing at?

failed gamble.

Wanted to lose the referendum in order to bring some of the EuroSceptics back from UKIP. Appease some of the less extreme right and convince them that Conservatives still had them at heart.

Except he won the referendum...

Ooops.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

I think Johnson genuinely thought that Cameron would stay on and be the one to lead negotiations before stepping down, or at the very least have a pretty complete plan in place. He may have had his eye on becoming the next PM but not quite as soon as this and not with as much responsibility.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

https://twitter.com/tariqpanja/status/748480819279298560

molloyjh

Deleted User wrote: »

failed gamble.

Wanted to lose the referendum in order to bring some of the EuroSceptics back from UKIP. Appease some of the less extreme right and convince them that Conservatives still had them at heart.

Except he won the referendum...

Ooops.

Yeah this. It was a power play that's backfired on him spectacularly. Mind you it was also a power play for Cameron that backfired on him spectacularly too. It really is such a complete and total mess over there at the moment.

awec

Boris Johnson is a coward.

Synode

Slimball of the highest order. Cares only about himself and his political career and clearly doesn't give a damn about his country

Neil3030

Screw up the country to become Prime Minister. Doesn't want to be Prime Minister of a screwed up country.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

If you're struggling to get through the last few hours at work or just need a little bit of encouragement ... http://interaktiv.morgenpost.de/huh/

Clearlier

Neil3030 wrote: »

Screw up the country to become Prime Minister. Doesn't want to be Prime Minister of a screwed up country.

He does want to be the prime minister. It's just that his column in the Telegraph made it apparent to all of his supporters that he had no clothes on. When Gove decided to run he had almost no supporters left.

He's not running because he can't possibly win not because he doesn't want to.

So, now it looks like either the UK is going to have with Theresa May who has previously claimed that someone couldn't be deported because of their pet cat (the person in question did try to use the cat as a reason but the argument was dismissed). I don't know whether she lied or made a mistake. Either way it's not the act of someone you want to lead a country.

or

We'll have Michael Gove - one of the prime architects of the Brexit campaign that told lie after lie after lie.

Where the UK desperately needs statesmen and women to dig themselves out of an enormous hole they instead have these two.

irishbucsfan

Deleted User wrote: »

failed gamble.

Wanted to lose the referendum in order to bring some of the EuroSceptics back from UKIP. Appease some of the less extreme right and convince them that Conservatives still had them at heart.

Except he won the referendum...

Ooops.

It's utterly hilarious that people have managed to convince themselves this is true

irishbucsfan

Clearlier wrote: »

He does want to be the prime minister. It's just that his column in the Telegraph made it apparent to all of his supporters that he had no clothes on. When Gove decided to run he had almost no supporters left.

He's not running because he can't possibly win not because he doesn't want to.

So, now it looks like either the UK is going to have with Theresa May who has previously claimed that someone couldn't be deported because of their pet cat (the person in question did try to use the cat as a reason but the argument was dismissed). I don't know whether she lied or made a mistake. Either way it's not the act of someone you want to lead a country.

or

We'll have Michael Gove - one of the prime architects of the Brexit campaign that told lie after lie after lie.

Where the UK desperately needs statesmen and women to dig themselves out of an enormous hole they instead have these two.

I don't think Gove or May will last particularly long, certainly not long enough to see Britain out of the EU. I think Leadsom's challenge might be stronger than people expect, shes probably equally as incompetent as Gove and May but she hasn't had quite as many public screw-ups. I can't imagine Crabb or Fox will get it.

Ultimately if it's Gove or May the only thing that might cut them some slack is the fact the opposition is in complete disarray. The most important thing they can do for the party is fight off demand for a general election (which is exactly what the countries needs imo)

awec

irishbucsfan wrote: »

It's utterly hilarious that people have managed to convince themselves this is true

Here we go.

ibf vs emmet, round 25.

connemara man

awec wrote: »

Here we go.

ibf vs emmet, round 25.

Neil3030

Clearlier wrote: »

He does want to be the prime minister. It's just that his column in the Telegraph made it apparent to all of his supporters that he had no clothes on. When Gove decided to run he had almost no supporters left.

He's not running because he can't possibly win not because he doesn't want to.

Do you mean this article, or did he write one more recently?

I don't know... when is he ever going to get a better opportunity to be PM? Hold out until 2020 and trust his ability to win with the public?

irishbucsfan

Neil3030 wrote: »

Do you mean this article, or did he write one more recently?

I don't know... when is he ever going to get a better opportunity to be PM? Hold out until 2020 and trust his ability to win with the public?

He needed the support of someone like Gove to have any chance of winning.

Instead Gove has effectively stabbed him in the back, which is very entertaining in a Game of Thrones way:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36677028


Also on GoT, this tweet from Andrew Neill is amusing

https://twitter.com/afneil/status/748480098513391616

Neil3030

irishbucsfan wrote: »

He needed the support of someone like Gove to have any chance of winning.

Instead Gove has effectively stabbed him in the back, which is very entertaining in a Game of Thrones way:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36677028


Also on GoT, this tweet from Andrew Neill is amusing

https://twitter.com/afneil/status/748480098513391616

Don't watch GoT, have you any tweets with House of Cards references? :pac:

Well if he can't win without Gove (or against him) you'd have to imagine that's it for any future shots at PM. How could he possibly run again in the future if he balks at any competition? All the public will now see is Big Boris running scared from a little pudgy chinless Scotsman.

Clearlier

Neil3030 wrote: »

Do you mean this article, or did he write one more recently?

I don't know... when is he ever going to get a better opportunity to be PM? Hold out until 2020 and trust his ability to win with the public?

Yes, that one. Most of which was setting him up nicely for the leadership of the Tories until this paragraph

The only change – and it will not come in any great rush – is that the UK will extricate itself from the EU’s extraordinary and opaque system of legislation: the vast and growing corpus of law enacted by a European Court of Justice from which there can be no appeal. This will bring not threats, but golden opportunities for this country – to pass laws and set taxes according to the needs of the UK.

which betrayed such a colossal lack of understanding of what had just happened and what is about to happen that when Gove stopped supporting him and offered himself as an alternative (I imagine that Gove was looking out for such an opportunity) all of Boris's supporters jumped ship more or less instantaneously.

While I wouldn't rule him out completely forever I think and hope that he will not ever have another serious opportunity to be PM having botched this one.

irishbucsfan

Neil3030 wrote: »

Well if he can't win without Gove (or against him) you'd have to imagine that's it for any future shots at PM. How could he possibly run again in the future if he balks at any competition? All the public will now see is Big Boris running scared from a little pudgy chinless Scotsman.

I'm not sure. He's a charismatic demagogic figure who would attract more cross-party support than traditional Tories like Gove.

It's possible that the answer in all of this is that they take 2 years (posibly 3 years) to negotiate whatever they possibly can with everyone around the world after triggering Article 50, and then go back to the people for an Election to look for a mandate on proceeding with the deal, and if the Labour party are still as weak then as they are now then a "triangulator" like Johnson might come to the fore. The interim years are going to be messy for anyone in charge and it all feels a little fishy to me that Gove would try and "House of Cards" Johnson this morning out of nowhere.

Clearlier

irishbucsfan wrote: »

I'm not sure. He's a charismatic demagogic figure who would attract more cross-party support than traditional Tories like Gove.

It's possible that the answer in all of this is that they take 2 years (posibly 3 years) to negotiate whatever they possibly can with everyone around the world after triggering Article 50, and then go back to the people for an Election to look for a mandate on proceeding with the deal, and if the Labour party are still as weak then as they are now then a "triangulator" like Johnson might come to the fore. The interim years are going to be messy for anyone in charge and it all feels a little fishy to me that Gove would try and "House of Cards" Johnson this morning out of nowhere.

I thought that once article 50 is triggered that's it. They can leave before the 2 years but if no agreement has been reached after 2 years they're gone. Open to correction on this as I haven't read the article myself but that's what all of the commentators have been saying I think.

Sadly much though I decry and have decried the leadership prospects for the UK the EU isn't really any better. Both sides need people with vision, both sides are blessed with short term myopic leaders.

irishbucsfan

Clearlier wrote: »

I thought that once article 50 is triggered that's it. They can leave before the 2 years but if no agreement has been reached after 2 years they're gone. Open to correction on this as I haven't read the article myself but that's what all of the commentators have been saying I think.

Sadly much though I decry and have decried the leadership prospects for the UK the EU isn't really any better. Both sides need people with vision, both sides are blessed with short term myopic leaders.

Yes, it would certainly be very easy to think that, such is the standard of recent writing on the subject.

3. The Treaties shall cease to apply to the State in question from the date of entry into force of the withdrawal agreement or, failing that, two years after the notification referred to in paragraph 2, unless the European Council, in agreement with the Member State concerned, unanimously decides to extend this period.

They'll take as long as they need to ensure they get a deal done that doesn't negatively affect Germany's exports, if Germany suffers then what's the point in the EU at all!

Neil3030

Clearlier wrote: »

I thought that once article 50 is triggered that's it. They can leave before the 2 years but if no agreement has been reached after 2 years they're gone. Open to correction on this as I haven't read the article myself but that's what all of the commentators have been saying I think.

Sadly much though I decry and have decried the leadership prospects for the UK the EU isn't really any better. Both sides need people with vision, both sides are blessed with short term myopic leaders.

Seems to be some wiggle room on when, but not if...

The Treaty of Lisbon introduced an exit clause for members who wish to withdraw from the Union. Under TEU Article 50, a Member State would notify the European Council of its intention to exit the Union and a withdrawal agreement would be negotiated between the Union and that State. The treaties of the European Union would cease to be applicable to that State from the date of the agreement or, failing that, within two years of the notification unless the Council, in agreement with the State, unanimously decides to extend this period. The two year period of time in which the terms of the withdrawal agreement are negotiated is known as the sunset period. The agreement is concluded on behalf of the Union by the Council and must set out the arrangements for withdrawal, including a framework for the State's future relationship with the Union. The agreement is to be approved by the Council, acting by qualified majority, after obtaining the consent of the European Parliament. Should a former Member State seek to rejoin the European Union, it would be subject to the same conditions as any other applicant country.

Neil3030

But is there an option to renege article 50? The sunset period can be extended, with bilateral agreement, but can a member state completely change its mind and opt to stay?

molloyjh

Clearlier wrote: »

....both sides are blessed with short term myopic leaders.

Can anyone be surprised that when politicians are elected for 4 years by a fickle electorate that the politicians focus on the short term though? It's an inherent flaw in the whole system.

irishbucsfan

Neil3030 wrote: »

But is there an option to renege article 50? The sunset period can be extended, with bilateral agreement, but can a member state completely change its mind and opt to stay?

Yes, but only by agreement with the Commission

irishbucsfan

molloyjh wrote: »

Can anyone be surprised that when politicians are elected for 4 years by a fickle electorate that the politicians focus on the short term though? It's an inherent flaw in the whole system.

European politicians aren't elected for 4 years by a fickle electorate, if they're elected at all, and they are cursed by the same flaws.

molloyjh

irishbucsfan wrote: »

European politicians aren't elected for 4 years by a fickle electorate, if they're elected at all, and they are cursed by the same flaws.

Members of the EU Parliament are elected for 5 years and members of the EU Council are members of the Member States governments. These are the 2 legislative bodies of the EU. So while maybe my post should have said 4-5 years the point stands.

EDIT: It also refers to the UK Government, not just the EU.

awec

Boobs.

irishbucsfan

molloyjh wrote: »

Members of the EU Parliament are elected for 5 years and members of the EU Council are members of the Member States governments. These are the 2 legislative bodies of the EU. So while maybe my post should have said 4-5 years the point stands.

EDIT: It also refers to the UK Government, not just the EU.

None of that applies to the executive body of EU governance however. You can attempt to blame a fickle electorate for the EU, but you're wrong.

Rather than blaming the thickos in the electorate, people should be focusing on fixing the systemic problems with the EU, and the answer is more democracy not less of it. Varoufakis' Diem25 are a group who are lobbying for exactly that (although with an estimated 10,000 lobbyists, the majority of whom want exactly the opposite, in Brussels it's probably unlikely that sense will prevail).

https://www.project-syndicate.org/commentary/leftist-debate-european-union-by-yanis-varoufakis-2016-06

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/fintan-o-toole-how-europe-s-leaders-can-fix-the-union-1.2701889

irishbucsfan

irishbucsfan wrote: »

It's utterly hilarious that people have managed to convince themselves this is true

Swell analysis old chap.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

awec wrote: »

Boobs.

Usually I hate the GOT boob talk, but right now I concur.

molloyjh

irishbucsfan wrote: »

None of that applies to the executive body of EU governance however. You can attempt to blame a fickle electorate for the EU, but you're wrong.

Rather than blaming the thickos in the electorate, people should be focusing on fixing the systemic problems with the EU, and the answer is more democracy not less of it. Varoufakis' Diem25 are a group who are lobbying for exactly that (although with an estimated 10,000 lobbyists, the majority of whom want exactly the opposite, in Brussels it's probably unlikely that sense will prevail).

https://www.project-syndicate.org/commentary/leftist-debate-european-union-by-yanis-varoufakis-2016-06

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/fintan-o-toole-how-europe-s-leaders-can-fix-the-union-1.2701889

Ah Jesus IBF I never blamed "thickos" for anything. Reign it in there. I simply made the point that when the system is set up to have politicians elected for short terms in office we have to expect that there will be a real element of shot termism from politicians as they seek reelection. It was a general point. Do you have to look for a row in everything!?

EDIT: I used the term "fickle", a far cry from "thickos", because an electorate is fickle by nature. What was important in 2005 was different to what was important in 2009 for example.

irishbucsfan

molloyjh wrote: »

Ah Jesus IBF I never blamed "thickos" for anything. Reign it in there. I simply made the point that when the system is set up to have politicians elected for short terms in office we have to expect that there will be a real element of shot termism from politicians as they seek reelection. It was a general point. Do you have to look for a row in everything!?

EDIT: I used the term "fickle", a far cry from "thickos", because an electorate is fickle by nature. What was important in 2005 was different to what was important in 2009 for example.

I didn't actually say you called anyone thick. That's just been the prevailing wisdom on display from some corners in recent days, as was pointed out quite succinctly by Vincent Browne in his article.

As I pointed out, democracy, or term length, is absolutely not the cause of the problems we're currently seeing. The problem is the subversion of it both in Brussels and Westminster.

molloyjh

irishbucsfan wrote: »

I didn't actually say you called anyone thick. That's just been the prevailing wisdom on display from some corners in recent days, as was pointed out quite succinctly by Vincent Browne in his article.

As I pointed out, democracy, or term length, is absolutely not the cause of the problems we're currently seeing. The problem is the subversion of it both in Brussels and Westminster.

Thing is I didn't say it was the cause of the problems we were seeing. I just replied to a comment about short term thinking from politicians. I'm not getting into a debate over something I was never talk about and you can stop applying the "prevailing wisdom" to my posts as well. If I didn't say it then it doesn't apply.

irishbucsfan

molloyjh wrote: »

Thing is I didn't say it was the cause of the problems we were seeing. I just replied to a comment about short term thinking from politicians. I'm not getting into a debate over something I was never talk about and you can stop applying the "prevailing wisdom" to my posts as well. If I didn't say it then it doesn't apply.

I meant prevailing wisdom like this:

The simple fact is that people are lazy. They could do research themselves, they just don't want to. They want the benefits of democracy without the responsibilities of it. They'd rather blame someone than work proactively to resolve issues

You replied to a comment about short term thinking about politicians blaming term length and claiming it's an inherent flaw in the whole system. I pointed out it's not a flaw in the whole system. The rest of my post had nothing to do with that.

molloyjh

irishbucsfan wrote: »

I meant prevailing wisdom like this:



You replied to a comment about short term thinking about politicians blaming term length and claiming it's an inherent flaw in the whole system. I pointed out it's not a flaw in the whole system. The rest of my post had nothing to do with that.

Again, how does that say "thickos"?

Clue: It doesn't.

A system can have many flaws. I made a general point about one. It wasn't something that deserved all these additional follow up posts. You're just looking to have a row and I'm not going to facilitate any further.

irishbucsfan

molloyjh wrote: »

Again, how does that say "thickos"?

Clue: It doesn't.

A system can have many flaws. I made a general point about one. It wasn't something that deserved all these additional follow up posts. You're just looking to have a row and I'm not going to facilitate any further.

Never said you called anyone a thicko, as I said in another post. I'm sorry that it caused offense though. That was supposed to be a general post about the very condescending attitude people often take towards the general electorate when they do something they disagree with.

awec

Lads lads lads, can we all relax and think of the boobs?

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

Ronaldo to miss in the shootout and retire?

b.gud

awec wrote: »

Lads lads lads, can we all relax and think of the boobs?

That implies that there would need to be a time I'm not thinking about boobs

Podge_irl

irishbucsfan wrote: »

They'll take as long as they need to ensure they get a deal done that doesn't negatively affect Germany's exports, if Germany suffers then what's the point in the EU at all!

Unless Slovakia decides otherwise. Or Slovenia, or maybe Greece. Maybe France wants to get it over and done with.

A unanimous agreement is a big thing to be betting on when there is so much politics involved. Absolutely everything is going to need to be conducted on the assumption that there is a 2 year hard deadline.

irishbucsfan

Podge_irl wrote: »

Unless Slovakia decides otherwise. Or Slovenia, or maybe Greece. Maybe France wants to get it over and done with.

A unanimous agreement is a big thing to be betting on when there is so much politics involved. Absolutely everything is going to need to be conducted on the assumption that there is a 2 year hard deadline.

Wouldn't disagree with that they need to assume there is a hard deadline.

In reality the EU are masters at "discovering" loopholes when they are needed, yet another example this afternoon when the Italians announced they are being allowed to bail out their banks despite it being explicitly disallowed (and I can't imagine the Germans are too pleased about this).

Podge_irl

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Wouldn't disagree with that they need to assume there is a hard deadline.

In reality the EU are masters at "discovering" loopholes when they are needed, yet another example this afternoon when the Italians announced they are being allowed to bail out their banks despite it being explicitly disallowed (and I can't imagine the Germans are too pleased about this).

Oh yeah, sure. Loophole central when needs arise.

I wouldn't be so sure as you that they will even try and find it in this scenario. There comes times when politics trumps economics (not even sure that's a fair description in this case - there also comes a time when long term interests trump short term ones).

irishbucsfan

Podge_irl wrote: »

Oh yeah, sure. Loophole central when needs arise.

I wouldn't be so sure as you that they will even try and find it in this scenario. There comes times when politics trumps economics (not even sure that's a fair description in this case - there also comes a time when long term interests trump short term ones).

I don't think I can think of a time when the Union has ever put politics above economics. Possibly in the Troika's dealings with Syriza and the Greeks but I think they genuinely believe in the economic argument in favour of austerity.

bilston

Urrrggghhhh I really really hope Gove doesn't win. How could anyone possibly trust him? He has betrayed Cameron and now he has stabbed Boris in the front while looking him in the eye and making no apology for it either.

Theresa May may not be the worst option. She can probably bring the Remainers and Leavers together as well which Gove will never do. The fact she has survived 6 years as Home Secretary is an achievement in itself. I seem to remember it changed hands a few times under Blair.

I've never heard of Angela Leadsom. Liam Fox is too right wing and Steven Crabb is most likely preparing the ground for a proper craic at it next time round.

To be fair the Tories could announce Kermit the Frog as their new leader and they'd still probably win the next UK election given the state of the Labour Party.

irishbucsfan

bilston wrote: »

Urrrggghhhh I really really hope Gove doesn't win. How could anyone possibly trust him? He has betrayed Cameron and now he has stabbed Boris in the front while looking him in the eye and making no apology for it either.

Theresa May may not be the worst option. She can probably bring the Remainers and Leavers together as well which Gove will never do. The fact she has survived 6 years as Home Secretary is an achievement in itself. I seem to remember it changed hands a few times under Blair.

I've never heard of Angela Leadsom. Liam Fox is too right wing and Steven Crabb is most likely preparing the ground for a proper craic at it next time round.

To be fair the Tories could announce Kermit the Frog as their new leader and they'd still probably win the next UK election given the state of the Labour Party.

Andrea Leadsom was involved in the Brexit campaign which might help but it appears they're all behind Gove now, unfortunately.