Howth Tram to Return

Grandeeod

Harvey Normal wrote: »

I think you think it has to go the exact same way as it did. I'm saying the walking path route has space for a single track tram line. Some of it admittedly on a road in an estate but not for a very long distance.

I know it can't go along its original route and I believe it can't go along the route you suggest either. But I'm glad you finally realise that the original route is dead in the water. I hope you learned something tonight.

Harvey Normal

Grandeeod wrote: »

I know it can't go along its original route and I believe it can't go along the route you suggest either. But I'm glad you finally realise that the original route is dead in the water. I hope you learned something tonight.

I don't think I ever said the existing tram line walk was inch to inch the old tram line, nor do I care. It's largely the same route. 95-99% the same route.

The only thing that matters is whether a tram can go the tram line walk. It can. I live along the route as it happens.

That's the only thing that matters for this thread. It's you who thinks it's impossible. That's what needs to be proven.

Grandeeod

Harvey Normal wrote: »

I don't think I ever said the existing tram line walk was inch to inch the old tram line, nor do I care. It's largely the same route. 95-99% the same route.

The only thing that matters is whether a tram can go the tram line walk. It can. I live along the route as it happens.

That's the only thing that matters for this thread. It's you who thinks it's impossible. That's what needs to be proven.

Where you live means nothing. Show us your route Harvey. From Howth DART station to the summit and explain to all here how it navigates through the housing estates built over part of it.

Thanks.

tricky D

The track would share the road in the estates just like tram tracks do all over the place and did originally on parts of the original route. The roads and paths in the area were built over the former track route and may be over the actual tracks in places.

If you want the route, it's from the where the bridge used to be all the way up the path and joins Balkill Park middle with only a few trees obstructing. Then it's the old route from Kruger's Cutting to the Summit and beyond (which isn't part of the plan).

Grandeeod

tricky D wrote: »

The track would share the road in the estates just like tram tracks do all over the place and did originally on parts of the original route. The roads and paths in the area were built over the former track route and may be over the actual tracks in places.

If you want the route, it's from the where the bridge used to be all the way up the path and joins Balkill Park middle with only a few trees obstructing. Then it's the old route from Kruger's Cutting to the Summit and beyond (which isn't part of the plan).

Where the Hill of Howth Tram originally shared road space is irrelevant as its incomparable to the route we are talking about.

Actual HOUSES were built over the route. From Howth train station to the rear of Grace O'Malley Drive the route is fine. But blocks of houses on Grace O'Malley drive are built on the original alignment. Then you have the Balkill estate which was also built over the alignment. Are you seriously suggesting running the tram along a meandering route through residential roads/estates until it reaches Balglass road??

tricky D

Yes houses were built over a part of the route where it curved into what is now Grace O'Malley Drive and the bottom of Balkill Park, but there is no impediment if the curve is straightened, which would be the only deviation from the original route and would actually be an advantage, so the argument is somewhat moot.

The curve can be seen here: http://maps.osi.ie/publicviewer/#V2,728518,738768,11,9 by selecting Historic 25" and varying the overlay percentage.

However that is easily bypassed using this route, so the route is viable along there with some tree issues at the yellow circle.


Talking to a councillor last night, the biggest issue is how the handle the terminus and depot - the rest of the route is easy. The likelihood that the bridge gets rebuilt is pretty much zero, so the thought is to have it run westward on a former road to the side of St Mary's Church (Aberdelghy on the Historic 25" linked above where the old Scout hall used to be). There's also the option to run it all the way to the Transport Museum but there would be big issues dealing with Howth Castle and also will the Museum remain there in the longer term considering it badly unfit for purpose ie. could move some day.

elastico

Grandeeod wrote: »

Where the Hill of Howth Tram originally shared road space is irrelevant as its incomparable to the route we are talking about.

Actual HOUSES were built over the route. From Howth train station to the rear of Grace O'Malley Drive the route is fine. But blocks of houses on Grace O'Malley drive are built on the original alignment. Then you have the Balkill estate which was also built over the alignment. Are you seriously suggesting running the tram along a meandering route through residential roads/estates until it reaches Balglass road??

Looking on google street view there appears to be an obvious route, sharing grace O'Malley road for a small section (running alongside the golf club), then cutting across a bit of a green area beside the golf club then onto a road called balkhill park, its a gentle curve, no meandering and no houses.

elastico

Didn't see Tricky D's post but that's the exact same obvious route with no meandering I was referencing in my post above!

Grandeeod

tricky D wrote: »

Yes houses were built over a part of the route where it curved into what is now Grace O'Malley Drive and the bottom of Balkill Park, but there is no impediment if the curve is straightened, which would be the only deviation from the original route and would actually be an advantage, so the argument is somewhat moot.

The curve can be seen here: http://maps.osi.ie/publicviewer/#V2,728518,738768,11,9 by selecting Historic 25" and varying the overlay percentage.

However that is easily bypassed using this route, so the route is viable along there with some tree issues at the yellow circle.


Talking to a councillor last night, the biggest issue is how the handle the terminus and depot - the rest of the route is easy. The likelihood that the bridge gets rebuilt is pretty much zero, so the thought is to have it run westward on a former road to the side of St Mary's Church (Aberdelghy on the Historic 25" linked above where the old Scout hall used to be). There's also the option to run it all the way to the Transport Museum but there would be big issues dealing with Howth Castle and also will the Museum remain there in the longer term considering it badly unfit for purpose ie. could move some day.

I saw that one coming. You are still trying to run a tram along roads in a residential housing estate. That will not happen. Ever.

tricky D

Why not? Objections from the residents? The ones I've talked to view the idea much more positively than I do.

There's no problem with the route itself as clearly shown in the pic. No houses in the way and shared road and tracks work fine for that route.

Besides it's for the consultants are determine, so it is still a possibility.

elastico

Grandeeod wrote: »

I saw that one coming. You are still trying to run a tram along roads in a residential housing estate. That will not happen. Ever.

Why?

This project may never see the light of day, but a few hundred metres sharing a residential road won't be reason.

Grandeeod

tricky D wrote: »

Why not? Objections from the residents? The ones I've talked to view the idea much more positively than I do.

There's no problem with the route itself as clearly shown in the pic. No houses in the way and shared road and tracks work fine for that route.

Besides it's for the consultants are determine, so it is still a possibility.

We'll agree to differ so. But I cannot see a tram running along a residential housing estate road with cars and driveways being a goer. The route suggested above has a tram running along a fairly narrow two way road in Balkill Park estate towards its junction with Balglass road. There is no precedent in this country for such a thing or anywhere for that matter.

As for consultants, I could determine it in less than 5 minutes for them.

Grandeeod

elastico wrote: »

Why?

This project may never see the light of day, but a few hundred metres sharing a residential road won't be reason.

I thought we were discussing it here as being a reason.

tricky D

Grandeeod wrote: »

As for consultants, I could determine it in less than 5 minutes for them.

We can agree on this. See my post#5. Just can't see it being economic.

Del.Monte

tricky D wrote: »

We can agree on this. See my post#5. Just can't see it being economic.

It's got little to do with economics and more to do with a 'can't do' attitude from officialdom. In what other country would the National Transport Museum be in a hay shed?

Losty Dublin

Grandeeod wrote: »

As for consultants, I could determine it in less than 5 minutes for them.

And diddle them out of an easy thirty grand? You spoilsport

Grandeeod

tricky D wrote: »

We can agree on this. See my post#5. Just can't see it being economic.

I'd love to see it happen along with a lot of things. I spent a long time in Howth tracing the original route. But it will earn money for consultants that have never stood outside Howth national School and imagined the tram coming down from the summit through what was then countryside.

railer201

tricky D wrote: »

Yes houses were built over a part of the route where it curved into what is now Grace O'Malley Drive and the bottom of Balkill Park, but there is no impediment if the curve is straightened, which would be the only deviation from the original route and would actually be an advantage, so the argument is somewhat moot.

The curve can be seen here: http://maps.osi.ie/publicviewer/#V2,728518,738768,11,9 by selecting Historic 25" and varying the overlay percentage.

However that is easily bypassed using this route, so the route is viable along there with some tree issues at the yellow circle.


Talking to a councillor last night, the biggest issue is how the handle the terminus and depot - the rest of the route is easy. The likelihood that the bridge gets rebuilt is pretty much zero, so the thought is to have it run westward on a former road to the side of St Mary's Church (Aberdelghy on the Historic 25" linked above where the old Scout hall used to be). There's also the option to run it all the way to the Transport Museum but there would be big issues dealing with Howth Castle and also will the Museum remain there in the longer term considering it badly unfit for purpose ie. could move some day.

The link above shows up the old alignment in Balkhill as being 'S' shaped - and I'm curious as to why ? Was it to moderate the gradient at that point by increasing the length of the track ? If so, then how would the original gradient be retained if the route is shortened at that point as shown by the new 'yellow dot' route ? It's a couple of years since I last cycled down the alignment and it's steep enough, brakes on all or most of the way.

The steepest gradient on the climb to the summit is 1 in 16 according to the DVD 'Memories of the Hill of Howth Trams'.

tricky D

Del.Monte wrote: »

In what other country would the National Transport Museum be in a hay shed?

A little mad idea with issues galore, but I wonder about moving the Museum to the old Edros and run a route from the Summit down to St Marys then turn back passed the DART along the prom and end at Edros/New Transport Museum/Beach if it could handle the Balscadden Road hill.

Stops: Summit, Greys Lane, Balkill/Balglass, Grace O, St Marys/Howth Castle, DART, East Pier, Transport Museum.

Pfft, pie in the sky.

whisky_galore

I think given the circumstances we're damn lucky it's in a hayshed and we're not shaving with the hayshed's contents.

At least its open to the public, things are under cover and attended which is more than one can say about other projects up and down the country.

noodler

Without knowing the cost, if we assume tens of millions then this does seem like a bad use of taxpayers resources for a purely tourism project.

Banjoxed

whisky_galore wrote: »

I think given the circumstances we're damn lucky it's in a hayshed and we're not shaving with the hayshed's contents.

At least its open to the public, things are under cover and attended which is more than one can say about other projects up and down the country.

Solution: Don't shave.

whisky_galore

noodler wrote: »

Without knowing the cost, if we assume tens of millions then this does seem like a bad use of taxpayers resources for a purely tourism project.

Money has been p*ssed away on far worse things, but I don't think we have the will or the organisational skills to see it through in this country. Most things here usually turn out to be poorly funded, half-assed efforts.

Rebuilding the little railways of Wales wasn't that bad a move, attracting tourists instead of empty trackbeds grazing sheep.

Banjoxed

whisky_galore wrote: »

Money has been p*ssed away on far worse things, but I don't think we have the will or the organisational skills to see it through in this country. Most things here usually turn out to be poorly funded, half-assed efforts.

Rebuilding the little railways of Wales wasn't that bad a move, attracting tourists instead of empty trackbeds grazing sheep.

Official Ireland since independence has had an overall policy of managing a declining population on scarce resources. This has been internalised to the extent that the late Brian Lenihan senior's blithe response to 1980s emigration was "Ah sure we can't all live on a small island" and the zero-sum attitude to infrastructure that "we" can't have both Road and Rail.

What hope has an imaginative plan like Howth got under those circumstances? Our unique intellectual Stalinism won't permit us to have nice things like that.

FixdePitchmark

Sorry for bumping a mega old thread - Covid has changed things.

But was on this route today - knew very very little about it. Was so sad and kinda depressed at it gone. What an extraordinarily brilliant tram route.

Would be hard to get anything put into Howth at this point. Let us just say the locals are very influential and they could make a very valid argument that the place is already overloaded with blow ins.

A route to deer park is genius - in fact the new developers there could make it part of the 5 star resort - but they may think that it will not mix well with their business plan.


I could be wrong there on Howth residents - sick of Howth being too overloaded with tourism.

What a place.

FixdePitchmark

vg88 wrote: »

An update http://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/howth-residents-in-favour-of-reinstating-trams-1.2820659

Impressed with this

whisky_galore

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

Impressed with this

That at least is somewhat positive, if only we could convert 'likes and shares' into serious lobbying to get this started as the greenway movement.

Del.Monte

Four year old IT article and how has the Hill of Howth tramway progressed since.......


Perhaps Fingal Co.Council can find a cottage along on the route and shove the trams into it like they did with the Fry Model Railway at Malahide. :rolleyes:

railer201

There was a programme about Howth on RTE1 yesterday with a short piece on the Howth tram project. Don't know how up to date this is, but it is a realistic appraisal of where this project is atm I'd say !

Scroll to 11 minutes in after all the ads have finished
https://www.rte.ie/player/series/tracks-and-trails/SI0000001984?epguid=AI000003050

BowWow

railer201 wrote: »

There was a programme about Howth on RTE1 yesterday with a short piece on the Howth tram project. Don't know how up to date this is, but it is a realistic appraisal of where this project is atm I'd say !

Scroll to 11 minutes in after all the ads have finished
https://www.rte.ie/player/series/tracks-and-trails/SI0000001984?epguid=AI000003050

Are you talking about the Fergal Quinn walk on Howth?