Howth Tram to Return

Grandeeod

webwayz wrote: »

Agreed Sam, hard on the horse, the waterfront idea was mooted to be a small tram (mentioned in the Irish Times website article - Ding! Ding! Old Number 9 tram may roll again in Howth).

I think it has to be the real thing, electric and up to the summit, something to do in Dublin, and a reason to go to Howth.

Beshoff Bros. are a reason to go to Howth.:D

whisky_galore

tricky D wrote: »

Fwiw pic of the old tram master's cottage though the sign calls them electric cars!

I think tramway employees would call them just that, like some BE staff still call a bus a 'car'.

Sam Russell

whisky_galore wrote: »

I think tramway employees would call them just that, like some BE staff still call a bus a 'car'.

Particularly the French ones.

[It is just my schoolboy French coming out]

vg88

An update http://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/howth-residents-in-favour-of-reinstating-trams-1.2820659

Sam Russell

How many trams will they have? Just the No. 9?

savagethegoat

not in my lifetime.

Del.Monte

Sam Russell wrote: »

How many trams will they have? Just the No. 9?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hill_of_Howth_Tramway

There are four preserved Hill of Howth trams but I shouldn't imagine that any apart from No.9 will be available - CIE couldn't get rid of them quick enough.

railer201

There is also the not too small matter of a housing estate having since been built over a significant portion of the alignment from Howth to the Summit. Ref Google Maps.

Hollister11

railer201 wrote: »

There is also the not too small matter of a housing estate having since been built over a significant portion of the alignment from Howth to the Summit. Ref Google Maps.

Which estate?

tricky D

No estates in the way. Route was maintained between Howth Station and the Summit as a Right of Way.

railer201

There is a route still there to the Summit ok., but the old alignment has disappeared in the vicinity of Grace O'Malley/Balkhill Estates, approximately midway along Grace O'Malley Drive up to the junction of Balkhill/Balglass Road. In addition the tramway bridge across to Howth Station was removed decades ago.

Grandeeod

railer201 wrote: »

There is a route still there to the Summit ok., but the old alignment has disappeared in the vicinity of Grace O'Malley/Balkhill Estates, approximately midway along Grace O'Malley Drive up to the junction of Balkhill/Balglass Road. In addition the tramway bridge across to Howth Station was removed decades ago.

Its certainly a big gap between the DART station and Balgrass road alright.

Grandeeod

I also meant to add that I think the line crossed over Balglass road on a bridge and a short section of embankment is clearly visible in Balkhill estate near the junction with Balglass road.

Technically there are no "estates" in the way, but I know for a fact that there are two houses in the way in Balkhill estate. The right of way was protected in terms of being able to walk the route with a few slight deviations in Balkhill. But getting a tram through there these days would be problematic.

Del.Monte

Why can't they just stick up some photo storyboards in Howth station and leave it at that?

Grandeeod

Further to my last post I was feeling a bit uncomfortable as I was working from memory so I dug out my notes from 1990!:D I surveyed the line that summer.

Railer201 is indeed correct about housing estates on the original alignment. The Grace O'Malley estate was built in two phases. Phase one was built while the tram was operating and phase two was built in the 1960s after the line shut. Balkhill estate was built in the 1970s. Both estates were built over the alignment.

Harvey Normal

railer201 wrote: »

There is a route still there to the Summit ok., but the old alignment has disappeared in the vicinity of Grace O'Malley/Balkhill Estates, approximately midway along Grace O'Malley Drive up to the junction of Balkhill/Balglass Road. In addition the tramway bridge across to Howth Station was removed decades ago.

Is there a need for the bridge? The tram can start in front of the stream and cross the road.

Most of the route is still there (it's part of the walking blue, red and purple walks) - a very small part of it goes through grace o malley and balkhill park and the tram lines could be on the road there. Not much of an issue.

Harvey Normal

Also Howth takes 1M tourists a year. There's money in those hills. And trams going up em.

railer201

McAlban wrote: »

There was never a Terminus there in the original Tramway.It was Mudflats. The Bridge may not be high enough for the DB buses going through howth village however.

If they had sense they would try and tie it into the national transport museum in Deerpark.

Prague has a fantastic Historical Tram Tour you can do. However... They still have a lot of their original tram lines...

Harvey Normal wrote: »

Is there a need for the bridge? The tram can start in front of the stream and cross the road.

To meet up with the existing old alignment then the tram has to gain height as the photo shows.

Most of the route is still there (it's part of the walking blue, red and purple walks) - a very small part of it goes through grace o malley and balkhill park and the tram lines could be on the road there. Not much of an issue.

On the face of it looks possible but whether it is desirable from the residents' point of view to have a new tramway through their estates is another matter.

Grandeeod

Harvey Normal wrote: »

a very small part of it goes through grace o malley and balkhill park and the tram lines could be on the road there. Not much of an issue.

The original route that ran through where those estates are now has been completely obliterated. The very small part that you describe provides absolutely no option for a tram line whatsoever. Its a huge issue.

Harvey Normal

railer201 wrote: »

To meet up with the existing old alignment then the tram has to gain height as the photo shows.



On the face of it looks possible but whether it is desirable from the residents' point of view to have a new tramway through their estates is another matter.

Building the bridge again makes no sense. That old tram went to Sutton on what is now the dart line so had to do it, the new tram just needs to cross the road, or start across the road. There's a path there now from the harbour road - behind the bus stop - which skirts behind most of O'Malley park. That's the old tram line.

Incidentally for most of the route in which it is in the estates there's no housing on the right of the route (going up the hill). The line when it joins into the estates skirts to the eastern part of O'Malley park, for about 20 yards, and then joins up with a footpath to balkhill park where most of the housing on the right of the route is elevated above it. That's about 100 yards. After that it's all now a sandy footpath. All the way to the summit inn.

There about two houses that are troublesome if you need dual track. Just at the end of the footpath between O'Malley park and balkhill park.

Grandeeod

railer201 wrote: »

On the face of it looks possible but whether it is desirable from the residents' point of view to have a new tramway through their estates is another matter.

I think we both know that it isn't possible to reroute an old tram line through housing estates that were built over it.

Harvey Normal

Grandeeod wrote: »

I think we both know that it isn't possible to reroute an old tram line through housing estates that were built over it.

I think you've no clue of the route.

Grandeeod

Harvey Normal wrote: »

Building the bridge again makes no sense. That old tram went to Sutton on what is now the dart line so had to do it, the new tram just needs to cross the road, or start across the road. There's a path there now from the harbour road - behind the bus stop - which skirts behind most of O'Malley park. That's the old tram line.

Incidentally for most of the route in which it is in the estates there's no housing on the right of the route (going up the hill). The line when it joins into the estates skirts to the eastern part of O'Malley park, for about 20 yards, and then joins up with a footpath to balkhill park where most of the housing on the right of the route is elevated above it. That's about 100 yards. After that it's all now a sandy footpath. All the way to the summit inn.

There about two houses that are troublesome if you need dual track. Just at the end of the footpath between O'Malley park and balkhill park.

You don't know the original route.

railer201

Harvey Normal wrote: »

Building the bridge again makes no sense. That old tram went to Sutton on what is now the dart line so had to do it, the new tram just needs to cross the road, or start across the road. There's a path there now from the harbour road - behind the bus stop - which skirts behind most of O'Malley park. That's the old tram line.

Incidentally for most of the route in which it is in the estates there's no housing on the right of the route (going up the hill). The line when it joins into the estates skirts to the eastern part of O'Malley park, for about 20 yards, and then joins up with a footpath to balkhill park where most of the housing on the right of the route is elevated above it. That's about 100 yards. After that it's all now a sandy footpath. All the way to the summit inn.

There about two houses that are troublesome if you need dual track. Just at the end of the footpath between O'Malley park and balkhill park.

For starters the tram did not go to Sutton on the DART line - I travelled on it many times - Grandeod is correct - the breach in the old alignment is extremely problematical for a few reasons.

Harvey Normal

Grandeeod wrote: »

You don't know the original route.

I know the walking path, the tram line route. A tram could go on that route.

Harvey Normal

railer201 wrote: »

For starters the tram did not go to Sutton on the old DART track - I travelled on it many times - Grandeod is correct - the breach in the old alignment is extremely problematical for a few reasons.

It crossed the bridge to get to Howth station which would be pointless now.

Of course this is possible. The line can go through the 100 yards of the new estate it needs. The residents may complain and stop it or consider it a cool way to get to the summit, particularly if there's a stop.

The Irish times reports indicates that most Howth residents are in favour.

Atlantic Dawn

A cable car system with support pylons running the original route would make more sense from a practical and cost point of view, something like this...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=glQO341FFSQ

Grandeeod

Harvey Normal wrote: »

I know the walking path, the tram line route. A tram could go on that route.

The walking path and tram line route is broken in the area north and south of Howth National School.

railer201

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

A cable car system with support pylons running the original route would make more sense from a practical and cost point of view, something like this...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=glQO341FFSQ

Thinking outside (or above) the box there. There used to be one in Bray, alas no longer, bought the T-shirt for that too along with the Howth tram.

Harvey Normal

Grandeeod wrote: »

The walking path and tram line route is broken in the area north and south of Howth National School.

I think you think it has to go the exact same way as it did. I'm saying the walking path route has space for a single track tram line. Some of it admittedly on a road in an estate but not for a very long distance.