"Women needs to face facts about the link between rape and drinking"

LETHAL LADY · 14-06-2016 5:13pm

I'd like to hear Ms. Horan's views on the rape of prostitutes. After all, given the nature of their employment, they are constantly putting themselves in danger and must be more culpable when assaulted.

stoplooklisten · 14-06-2016 5:13pm

bubblypop wrote: »

But it's still the rapists fault, & nothing to do with the girl.
It's a rapists idea to rape a woman, drunk or sober, so society trying to say that in some way that girl is at fault because she couldn't defend herself , is society saying to that rapist, that's OK, sure you can't help yourself.

By saying that a drunk girl can't defend themselves against rapists, you are actually placing partial blame onto the victim, whether you accept that or not.

Not really it's more, rapist nutters exist, don't put yourself in a vulnerable situation by drinking too much.

To deny rapists exist and pretend we can all live in lala land is unrealistic

suicide_circus · 14-06-2016 5:16pm

LETHAL LADY wrote: »

I'd like to hear Ms. Horan's views on the rape of prostitutes. After all, given the nature of their employment, they are constantly putting themselves in danger and must be more culpable when assaulted.

Well in that case, logic dictates that the advice would be to avoid prostitution.

These two statements are both simultaneously correct;

1. Being a prostitute increases your risk of rape.
2. Those who rape prostitutes are entirely responsible for their actions.

professore · 14-06-2016 5:18pm

LexieOnRale wrote: »

It does not matter if a woman is passed out on the street, wearing absolutely nothing, there is NO DEFENCE at all for raping her. She is not responsible for anyone else's actions. When she drinks, it doesn't mean she's fair game to be raped. When she dresses provocatively she is not inviting men to rape her.

If a man has sex with a woman without her consent then he is 100% a rapist and should be treated as such. If at any time after consenting she tells him to stop and he doesn't, he is a rapist.

This is true of course, but so is this:

It does not matter if a man is passed out on the street, wearing €50 notes, there is NO DEFENCE at all for robbing him. He is not responsible for anyone else's actions. When he drinks, it doesn't mean he's fair game to be robbed. When he attaches €50 to his clothes and walks through the dodgiest area in town he is not inviting men to rob him.

If a man robs another man without his consent then he is 100% a thief and should be treated as such. If at any time after consenting to be robbed he tells him to stop and he doesn't, he is a thief.

Both examples are f**king idiots.

14-06-2016 5:19pm

stoplooklisten wrote: »

Not really it's more, rapist nutters exist, don't put yourself in a vulnerable situation by drinking too much.

To deny rapists exist and pretend we can all live in lala land is unrealistic

Oh I'm not saying the don't exist, I'm saying it's all their fault, completely & totally. Doesnt matter whether the female is sober or drunk.
Sober women get raped, usually by someone they know.

It's actually fairly rare in this country for a female to be approached & raped in the street by an unknown assailant. Thank God, which suggests that most people don't go around raping women, drunk or not. So many people see drunken women & don't rape them.
Do you think they need to stop themselves ? Of course not, they are aware that rape is wrong.

eviltwin · 14-06-2016 5:22pm

The problem with this kind of 'advice' is it just increases the fear women have of strange men. We then wonder why there is a culture of 'all men are rapists'

storker · 14-06-2016 5:24pm

Digs wrote: »

Even a whiff of suggesting women are responsible due to drink is sending a message that rape is justifiable. It's not, ever.

How about less victim blaming and more just don't rape someone??? Novel idea I know.

It might be sending a message that rape was partly justifiable if the argument was for a lesser sentence for the rapist in such circumstances, or suggesting that he be charged with a lesser crime. But nobody is suggesting that. So rape as a crime stands. The message to men not to rape stands. What's being discussed is good old-fashioned crime prevention, which is no more about victim blaming than advising homeowners to lock their doors and windows to help prevent burglaries.

eviltwin · 14-06-2016 5:26pm

Do people have less sympathy for a drunk victim than a sober one?

stoplooklisten · 14-06-2016 5:26pm

bubblypop wrote: »

Oh I'm not saying the don't exist, I'm saying it's all their fault, completely & totally. Doesnt matter whether the female is sober or drunk.
Sober women get raped, usually by someone they know.

It's actually fairly rare in this country for a female to be approached & raped in the street by an unknown assailant. Thank God, which suggests that most people don't go around raping women, drunk or not. So many people see drunken women & don't rape them.
Do you think they need to stop themselves ? Of course not, they are aware that rape is wrong.

Yes it is the rapists fault, i agree. But it's common sense not to put yourself in such a vulnerable position.

Most people don;t go around raping women, but the rapists do. Do they have to stop themselves? I don't know ask the rapists but I would suggest there are instances where the have to fight their urges.

Rapes mightn't be a that common, but sexual assault are

One eyed Jack · 14-06-2016 5:27pm

stoplooklisten wrote: »

Not really it's more, rapist nutters exist, don't put yourself in a vulnerable situation by drinking too much.

To deny rapists exist and pretend we can all live in lala land is unrealistic

By that logic, going outside your front door increases your risk of being raped. You're putting yourself in a vulnerable situation because you just never know, rapists exist.

You're basically instilling an irrational fear and paranoia in people, well, those people who are going to take that crap seriously.

storker · 14-06-2016 5:28pm

lazygal wrote: »

These 'take precautions' warnings simply send the message out that someone is going to get raped-so here's how you make sure it isn't you the rapist goes for.

Exactly. Just like burglary and car theft. Neither of which are in any way condoned by society either.

professore · 14-06-2016 5:28pm

What's happening now is that young men are being taught that they are evil and rapists, and that women are perfect, and should take no responsibility whatsoever for their behaviour or actions. That's if they are not being told that "gender is a social construct" and equally harmful crap.

All men with an IQ above a rock know that rape is wrong - some are just assholes and don't care, and those ones won't be indoctrinated to change, but the good men - i.e. the vast majority - are being demonised. It's no wonder that this whole MGTOW movement is gaining traction.

Rant over.

eviltwin · 14-06-2016 5:30pm

professore wrote: »

What's happening now is that young men are being taught that they are evil and rapists, and that women are perfect, and should take no responsibility whatsoever for their behaviour or actions. That's if they are not being told that "gender is a social construct" and equally harmful crap.

Men know that rape is wrong - some are just assholes, and those ones won't be indoctrinated to change, but the good men - i.e. the vast majority - are being demonised. It's no wonder that this whole MGTOW movement is gaining traction.

Rant over.

Taught that where?

storker · 14-06-2016 5:32pm

endacl wrote: »

It's actually quite handy seeing the name 'Niamh Horan' at the top of any article. Saves time. You can skip it, knowing you won't miss anything. Of any substance. Whatsoever.

Poor logic, though. Any argument must stand or fall on its own merits. The identity of the arguer may feed into one's critical analysis of what is being said, but it should hardly be the deciding factor.

Digs · 14-06-2016 5:32pm

storker wrote: »

It might be sending a message that rape was partly justifiable if the argument was for a lesser sentence for the rapist in such circumstances, or suggesting that he be charged with a lesser crime. But nobody is suggesting that. So rape as a crime stands. The message to men not to rape stands. What's being discussed is good old-fashioned crime prevention, which is no more about victim blaming than advising homeowners to lock their doors and windows to help prevent burglaries.

You're 100% convinced that a vulnerable girl who has been raped or assaulted wouldn't read that article about the "link" between alcohol and rape and think to herself, God is it something I did? Seems I shouldn't have drank so much, maybe I wouldn't have been raped. Thereby taking the spotlight off the rapist and throwing it back on the victim. If so I'd have to disagree with you. Encouraging this message would surely lead to less rapes being reported.

I'm a mother of girls, I'm also a woman myself, I'm not an idiot. I very much intend to raise them with awareness of dangerous situations as I was myself. I will also be raising them to learn that in absolutely no circumstances is rape ok, in no circumstance did they contribute to it. However I think the media would do better to encourage discussion on consent and not raping people rather than how women can avoid being raped. Like others have suggested where is the line drawn, one drink, two? What time of night should we stop walking alone at? Letting people into the house etc etc

I'm not outraged, I'm not offended, I'm not hysterical like some people on the other side of the fence seem to think of people with my opinion. I'm just sick of the issue not actually being tackled. The issue is rapists, not the women who have been raped.

14-06-2016 5:33pm

stoplooklisten wrote: »

Yes it is the rapists fault, i agree. But it's common sense not to put yourself in such a vulnerable position.

If I get burgled in my house, when I'm drunk in bed, is that me putting myself in a vulnerable position because I'm now too comatose to hear the break in?

storker · 14-06-2016 5:37pm

LexieOnRale wrote: »

It does not matter if a woman is passed out on the street, wearing absolutely nothing, there is NO DEFENCE at all for raping her. She is not responsible for anyone else's actions. When she drinks, it doesn't mean she's fair game to be raped. When she dresses provocatively she is not inviting men to rape her.

All true, but irrelevant, since nobody has said that it's a defence.

stoplooklisten · 14-06-2016 5:39pm

One eyed Jack wrote: »

By that logic, going outside your front door increases your risk of being raped. You're putting yourself in a vulnerable situation because you just never know, rapists exist.

You're basically instilling an irrational fear and paranoia in people, well, those people who are going to take that crap seriously.

Why not sleep with your house door unlocked? In fact, why have a door at all?

Having a door on your house is basically instilling an irrational fear and paranoia in people, well, those people who are going to take that crap seriously

scream · 14-06-2016 5:43pm

About a year or so ago some famous woman, I think it may have been Blondie, was reminiscing about being a wild child and what she felt were some of the stupid and dangerous things that she'd done in her youth, anyway she made a comment along the lines of ''if you're gonna go somewhere dangerous wearing fcuk me clothes and get drunk make sure you're wearing shoes you can run in''. That made a lot of sense but she got vilified by people who feel that everyone is a precious snowflake who should be able to do anything without consequence. Her point was simply ''do what you want but make sure you are safe''. Nobody is trying to justify rape, it is common sense to acknowledge that rape happens and that you have personal responsibility for your own protection, whether you're male or female. Being drunk often leads to poor decision making that sometimes puts people in a vulnerable position. It's ridiculous to suggest that warning women that they're more at risk of rape when drunk is offensive.

Dyr · 14-06-2016 5:47pm

Digs wrote: »

You're 100% convinced that a vulnerable girl who has been raped or assaulted wouldn't read that article about the "link" between alcohol and rape and think to herself, God is it something I did? Seems I shouldn't have drank so much, maybe I wouldn't have been raped. Thereby taking the spotlight off the rapist and throwing it back on the victim. If so I'd have to disagree with you. Encouraging this message would surely lead to less rapes being reported.

That's a bizarre linkage, that I never understand. if you wound up being raped because you're passed out in public, then yes, something you did most certainly led to you being raped.

That does'nt absolve the rapist of anything.

It's in your self interest not to wind up being a rape victim so giving people the tools and knowledge to avoid that is empowering people.

14-06-2016 5:49pm

Bambi wrote: »

That's a bizarre linkage, that I never understand. if you wound up being raped because you're passed out in public, then yes, something you did most certainly lead to you being raped.

That does'nt absolve the rapist of anything.

It's in your self interest not to wind up being a rape victim so giving people the tools and knowledge to avoid that is empowering people.

I can't believe your blaming a woman for being raped.
And you have indeed absolved the rapist of some blame.

14-06-2016 5:51pm

Bambi wrote: »

if you wound up being raped

Because that's a kind of everyday event that you try to avoid!

SVJKarate · 14-06-2016 5:52pm

suicide_circus wrote: »

When my mother warned me to look both ways before crossing the road or warned me not to accept sweets from strangers or indeed warned me not to drink too much, was she by implication suggesting that I would be to blame if disaster did befall me? Or was she giving sound common sense evidence based advice in order to help me be safer?

The latter, obviously.

It's a sign of our outrage-fuelled PC society that people consider sensible advice to be victim-blaming. Of course, to understand why this is you'd have to realise that in very many cases where a rapist is brought to trial his defence will be that the woman was partly, if not entirely, to blame. To support that position he may refer to her sexual history, her attire, or her state of inebriation as 'evidence'. One might argue that the courts should not permit such 'evidence' to be submitted, but sadly there are actually cases where those claims of defence have some justification, albeit that they are extremely rare. However everybody accepts that being drunk puts you at risk from predators, whether that means thieves, assailants or rapists. The victim is no less a victim in such cases, and people who assert that the advice to remain sober is victim-blaming are simply being irresponsible.

Digs · 14-06-2016 5:54pm

Bambi wrote: »

That's a bizarre linkage, that I never understand. if you wound up being raped because you're passed out in public, then yes, something you did most certainly led to you being raped.

That does'nt absolve the rapist of anything.

It's in your self interest not to wind up being a rape victim so giving people the tools and knowledge to avoid that is empowering people.

Yeah my point went completely over your head.

eviltwin · 14-06-2016 5:56pm

scream wrote: »

About a year or so ago some famous woman, I think it may have been Blondie, was reminiscing about being a wild child and what she felt were some of the stupid and dangerous things that she'd done in her youth, anyway she made a comment along the lines of ''if you're gonna go somewhere dangerous wearing fcuk me clothes and get drunk make sure you're wearing shoes you can run in''. That made a lot of sense but she got vilified by people who feel that everyone is a precious snowflake who should be able to do anything without consequence. Her point was simply ''do what you want but make sure you are safe''. Nobody is trying to justify rape, it is common sense to acknowledge that rape happens and that you have personal responsibility for your own protection, whether you're male or female. Being drunk often leads to poor decision making that sometimes puts people in a vulnerable position. It's ridiculous to suggest that warning women that they're more at risk of rape when drunk is offensive.

It was Chrissie Hynde. It's total bs. Men don't rape women because they wear revealing clothing. I think we do men a disservice by implying they are little more than animals who can't control themselves. She was gang raped so I doubt her footwear would have made much difference one way or another. It's not being a snowflake whatever the fcuk that is to point that out.

Dyr · 14-06-2016 5:57pm

bubblypop wrote: »

I can't believe your blaming a woman for being raped.
And you have indeed absolved the rapist of some blame.

Ah the magic knee jerk word's, blame and women, I never mentioned either

Here's the deal, if you're passed out in public, you're in f**king danger from whatever predatory opportunist prick passes you, whether thats a rapist, thief or some nutter who's going to stick a knife in you just because they can.

Are you to blame for the other parties actions? No

But that's not going to unrape you or unstab you.

14-06-2016 5:57pm

SVJKarate wrote: »

The latter, obviously.

It's a sign of our outrage-fuelled PC society that people consider sensible advice to be victim-blaming.

It's the same as being in a car and someone is driving erratically. Sure you're perfectly entitled to stay in your lane and pretend they're not there, if they hit you it's their fault and you were in the right. You could still end up with a car destroyed and/or some injuries.
Likewise, there are scumbags around. Pretending they don't exist is fine, it would be great if they didn't, but they do. Not getting blackout drunk is good life advice in general.

Also yes, I've had several shades of ****e knocked out of my a few times, as have more lads I know and whether it was 2 pints or 10 double vodkas there was the "if you hadn't drank so much..." speech.

eviltwin · 14-06-2016 5:58pm

Bambi wrote: »

That's a bizarre linkage, that I never understand. if you wound up being raped because you're passed out in public, then yes, something you did most certainly led to you being raped.

That does'nt absolve the rapist of anything.

It's in your self interest not to wind up being a rape victim so giving people the tools and knowledge to avoid that is empowering people.

If you knew anything about rape and sexual assault you'd know it's very common for victims to blame themselves regardless of the circumstances.

14-06-2016 6:00pm

Bambi wrote: »

if you wound up being raped because you're passed out in public, then yes, something you did most certainly led to you being raped.

Tell me how this doesn't blame the victim in some way?
Something YOU did most certainly led to YOU being raped.

So not something the rapist did then? Or maybe that passed out drunk girl may have been raped anyway, if she was sober, by the same passing rapist.

storker · 14-06-2016 6:03pm

Digs wrote: »

You're 100% convinced that a vulnerable girl who has been raped or assaulted wouldn't read that article about the "link" between alcohol and rape and think to herself, God is it something I did? Seems I shouldn't have drank so much, maybe I wouldn't have been raped.

I can't speculate about what someone who has been raped might be thinking. But I certainly wouldn't suggest that we censor articles because someone might be upset by them. If we go down that road, then everything is up for censorship.

Your hypothetical victim may indeed ask those questions, and probably will whether or not she ever reads anything written by Niamh Horan, but at that point it's not relevant. The crime has happened and cannot be prevented. The victim must be treated with the same courtesy and care as any other victim, the case should be investigate with the same vigor as any other, and the full weight of the law should be brought to bear against the rapist, whose crime should not be seen to have been lessened in any way by the circumstances of his victim at the time.

Essentially, as with any other crime, prevention is for before, not after, and of course, the victim in question can never be sure that the rape wouldn't have happened anyway. Crime prevention is about stacking the odds in your favour as much as possible, but it's never a guarantee, just as locking your car doesn't guarantee that it won't be stolen, but not being a guarantee doesn't mean that it isn't a good idea, or good advice.

Thereby taking the spotlight off the rapist and throwing it back on the victim. If so I'd have to disagree with you. Encouraging this message would surely lead to less rapes being reported.

But nobody is suggesting that the rape shouldn't be reported. Nobody is suggesting that the rape is in any way less traumatising. Nobody is suggesting that woman's drunkenness should in any way be considered a mitigating circumstance for the rapist. Nobody is suggesting that the rapist should receive a lighter sentence, or that he face a reduced charge.

I will also be raising them to learn that in absolutely no circumstances is rape ok, in no circumstance did they contribute to it. However I think the media would do better to encourage discussion on consent
and not raping people rather than how women can avoid being raped.

That's all fine, but you're presenting a false dichotomy in terms of what is focused on. I din;t see why it can't all be focused on. There is no suggestion that rape is not a crime or lack of information that leaves doubt as to its legal status. There is certainly no shortage of coverage of questions of consent, so both of those aspects are being dealt with. That doesn't take away, however, from the question of crime-prevention, and I really don't see why there's so much effort to shout it down every time it comes up.

I'm just sick of the issue not actually being tackled. The issue is rapists, not the women who have been raped.

How is the issue of rapists not being tackled?

"Women needs to face facts about the link between rape and drinking"

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