"Women needs to face facts about the link between rape and drinking"

Choc Chip

A quick google threw up this: "76% of all rape defendants had been drinking at the time of the alleged offence - See more at: http://alcoholireland.ie/facts/case-studies-kids/#sthash.4GvscpH0.dpuf"

Rape defendants OP. The people that commit the rape. Stopping women drinking isn't going to impact those stats much.

Penny Tration

spud82 wrote: »

When I was 23, I was happy in a relationship. I went to visit my OH, and he was in a weird and ratty mood all day. I ignored it, and thought it was because he was stressed/tired/hungry. To cut a long story short, we went out that and he got hammered drunk. When we got back to where we were staying, he beat the sh7t out of me and raped me. He had sobered up by than but I can remember him screaming at me ( the alcohol is giving me the courage to do what you deserve whore) I hadn't drank all night and can remember thinking that I was going to be murdered that night it was just horrendous.

After this incident I didn't tell anyone for years because I was so ashamed and scared. I suffered from panic attacks a lot. However one day I was sick of feeling like **** so I went to the Rape Crisis Centre and started going there every week. I know am training to work up there, and help survivors of rape. What is scary is the amount of rape cases in Ireland on a yearly basis, and how many of them don't get reported. There is so much stigma anytime a rape case is reported, and women are afraid to report it because they won't be believed and because of the **** conviction figures.

If anyone here has been assaulted and wishes to talk feel free to DM me x

I'm so sorry for what happened to you, but I wanted to say how wonderful it is that you're making a positive out of such a terrible situation by training to help others who have been in your position. You're fantastic.

spud82

Penny Tration wrote: »

I'm so sorry for what happened to you, but I wanted to say how wonderful it is that you're making a positive out of such a terrible situation by training to help others who have been in your position. You're fantastic.

thanks hon, means a lot xxx

Story Bud?

Choc Chip wrote: »

A quick google threw up this: "76% of all rape defendants had been drinking at the time of the alleged offence - See more at: http://alcoholireland.ie/facts/case-studies-kids/#sthash.4GvscpH0.dpuf"

Rape defendants OP. The people that commit the rape. Stopping women drinking isn't going to impact those stats much.

So men shouldn't get sh*tfaced because it turns them into potential rapists.

Or is that also absolutely rifcukingdiculous? (answer: of course it is).

Trent Houseboat

rjpf1980 wrote:

Yet again I am amazed I actually have to repeat this. The rapist is 100% responsible for the rape. What part of that didn't you understand? I said it in the OP. I am not victim blaming. I am merely pointing out the link between alcohol and rape.

I'm not racist but...

Maximus Alexander

rjpf1980 wrote: »

Yet again I am amazed I actually have to repeat this. The rapist is 100% responsible for the rape. What part of that didn't you understand? I said it in the OP. I am not victim blaming. I am merely pointing out the link between alcohol and rape.

I fully understand that a rapist is 100% responsible for rape, so I'd say I understand pretty well.

You're pointing it out, to what end? What is your actual point? There's a strong link between leaving the house and rape. Thoughts?

Wigglepuppy

28064212 wrote: »

I read somewhere that something like 8 out of 10 assault cases involve alcohol.

The most vulnerable men are those who are drunk and are most likely to get attacked. A man goes out with friends goes from pub to pub and gets drunk. An opportunistic guy looking for a fight sees a drunk man and takes a swing at him.

Sober men are less likely to be attacked. The case last week in which a man was apparently punched by a trio of young men in broad daylight is the exception.

Let's get this clear right now. No man is to blame for being assaulted full stop.

A man who assaults another man against his will and without his consent is an assaulter. He deserves what is coming to him. Full stop.

However getting sh*tfaced obviously doesn't help.

Anyone who points this out is screamed at by hysterical types for victim blaming and excusing assault preventing a discussion about the obvious link between assaults and alcohol.

Thoughts?

Exactly. When people say it's unwise not to be vigilant about your personal safety, they don't just mean women getting drunk - they mean anyone, in any situation!

Ideally people should be able to do what they want (within reason - it's stupid to get blind drunk though, and I will happily direct that at myself numerous times in the past) but unfortunately there are ruthless pieces of crap out there who will take advantage if you let your guard down, and while they are obviously the parties at fault, there is absolutely nothing wrong with saying it's unwise not to take precautions against them.

Wigglepuppy

Maximus Alexander wrote: »

That's exactly what the implication is: women should avoid getting drunk if they don't want to be raped. Struggling to see how you could read it any other way to be fair.

You're "struggling" are ya?

Nah, nobody implied women should become teetotal (which is what being a pioneer is).

Maximus Alexander

Wigglepuppy wrote: »

You're "struggling" are ya?

Nah, nobody implied women should become teetotal (which is what being a pioneer is).

Regale me with your interpretation then, of what was implied.

Wigglepuppy

Maximus Alexander wrote: »

Regale me with your interpretation then, of what was implied.

Not to get absolutely blackout drunk. Big gap between that and being a pioneer.

I know it's a very emotive topic, and one which draws the wind-up artists like bees to honey, but inversely it can lead to people losing sight of common sense. If people stand back and try not to be emotional, it is just a recommendation to keep yourself safe, which is something that can be applied to absolutely any context.

If someone says stuff like "stupid bitch, shouldn't have got so drunk", that's being ****ty, but "Don't get locked drunk and put yourself in a vulnerable position" is perfectly reasonable in any context.

Lux23

In countries where women don't normally drink alcohol rape is as common (if not more common) than in a country like Ireland. So I don't think alcohol is to blame, predators will always seek out the most vulnerable whether they be drunk, too frail to fight back or a young child.

Still we all should look after ourselves when drunk and look after friends that get in a state (both male and female!)

Pac1Man

OP your blood pressure must be sky high after these last few threads.

Maximus Alexander

Wigglepuppy wrote: »

Not to get absolutely blackout drunk. Big gap between that and being a pioneer.

I know it's a very emotive topic, and one which draws the wind-uo artists like bees to honey, but inversely it can lead to people losing sight of common sense. If people stand back and try not to be emotional, it is just a recommendation to keep yourself safe, which is something that can be applied to absolutely any context.

If someone says stuff like "stupid bitch, shouldn't have got so drunk", that's being ****ty, but "Don't get locked drunk and put yourself in a vulnerable position" is perfectly reasonable in any context.

The OP talks about rape cases that 'involve alchohol', not ones that involve a woman who is 'blackout drunk'. Unless you've gone teetotal, you're going to involve alcohol. Unsurprisingly, he doesn't cite any sources. I suspect he would be very hard pressed to find sources that back up your interpretation; that 8 out of 10 rape cases involve women who are 'blackout drunk'.

As I have previously stated, I'm all for advising people in general to avoid getting locked and putting themselves in danger. Drink puts people in all sorts of danger. But it's notable that this thread isn't about that; it's about pointing the finger at a specific gender and one specific type of danger, which brings a rather different tone to the discussion than your rather more reasonable second paragraph.

Little CuChulainn

Being blind drunk makes you vulnerable to many crimes, not just rape. It also makes you vulnerable to doing stupid things and getting hurt. Not sure why everyone loses their **** when it is brought up in relation to rape. If we lived in a utopia then worrying about personal safety and crime wouldn't be a thing but we don't. That's why we have house alarms, car alarms, bike locks, police patrols. Taking steps to reduce your vulnerability to these things should be met with support, not hysterics.

Maximus Alexander

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

Not sure why everyone loses their **** when it is brought up in relation to rape.

Because you'll notice that you will never see a thread called "Alcohol and getting mugged", and some people can read between the lines.

timmyntc

Maximus Alexander wrote: »

Because you'll notice that you will never see a thread called "Alcohol and getting mugged", and some people can read between the lines.

because thats generally accepted as being true, not much to discuss on that front. However replace mugged with raped and it's completely different?

Maximus Alexander

timmyntc wrote: »

because thats generally accepted as being true, not much to discuss on that front. However replace mugged with raped and it's completely different?

How is it completely different? Everyone knows they're more vulnerable after a few drinks. It's not news to anyone. Yet this only comes up in relation to rape, where people are at pains to find ways to make women moderate their behaviour, instead of trying to figure out how to stop people raping.

bonyn

Story Bud? wrote: »

What's that got to do with the OP?

I'm intrigued.

I was preempting how the thread was going to go.

No one argues that rape (forced, non-consensual sex) is wrong.

But the definition or rape can be slightly murky, with the consumption of alcohol used to muddy the waters even more. Sometimes, drunken sex is just drunken sex.

Penny Tration

bonyn wrote: »

I was preempting how the thread was going to go.

No one argues that rape (forced, non-consensual sex) is wrong.

But the definition or rape can be slightly murky, with the consumption of alcohol used to muddy the waters even more. Sometimes, drunken sex is just drunken sex.

The definition of rape really isn't murky in the slightest. It's sex without informed consent.

If someone is absolutely locked, they cannot give informed consent. So, don't shag people that are too drunk to walk straight, and you're good. Pretty simple, I'd have thought.

The only real grey area (which is a huge one, IMO) is that if BOTH people are so locked that they can't stand, only the man is at fault if sex happens. IMO neither can give informed consent, so I disagree that only the man in that scenario could be prosecuted.


Realistically though, how many people have drunk sex and go to the police? Even the woman in the Ched Evan's case didn't, she went to the police because she couldn't find her handbag.

bonyn

Maximus Alexander wrote: »

Because you'll notice that you will never see a thread called "Alcohol and getting mugged", and some people can read between the lines.

Now that you mention it, it's a good idea for a thread.

I was mugged while drunk before. No doubt about it, pushed to the ground by two guys who relieved me of my phone.

On the other hand, if I was stumbling down the street and someone said "can you spare some change" and I handed them a Eur50 note.. he said "God bless you" and I replied "Merry Christmas", only for the next morning to wake up and say "it wasn't consensual, I was drunk.. he took advantage of me"... well, that's a different thing altogether. Yes, he took advantage. Maybe I'll even have felt raped. But you can hardly call it a mugging.

timmyntc

Maximus Alexander wrote: »

How is it completely different? Everyone knows they're more vulnerable after a few drinks. It's not news to anyone. Yet this only comes up in relation to rape, where people are at pains to find ways to make women moderate their behaviour, instead of trying to figure out how to stop people raping.

People have always been trying to stop people raping. The idea that it's completely ignored is absurd. But what else do you propose we do?
It's common sense that getting sh*tfaced drunk will put you more at risk of many things, whether you're male or female, so why is it so offensive to suggest that not letting yourself get blackout drunk might make you less susceptible to being a victim? It's about risk mitigation, not playing the blame game.

Little CuChulainn

Maximus Alexander wrote: »

How is it completely different? Everyone knows they're more vulnerable after a few drinks. It's not news to anyone. Yet this only comes up in relation to rape, where people are at pains to find ways to make women moderate their behaviour, instead of trying to figure out how to stop people raping.

How do you plan on stopping rape so? Do you not think that until your super duper rape stopper is invented it would be a good idea to try and reduce the opportunities for offenders and hopefully the number of victims?

Do you apply your logic to any other crime? Do you tell people not to lock up their house and just stop burglary instead? Do you tell people not to put on their seat belt and just stop crashes instead?

Maximus Alexander

You're both completely missing the point.

Penny Tration

bonyn wrote: »

Now that you mention it, it's a good idea for a thread.

I was mugged while drunk before. No doubt about it, pushed to the ground by two guys who relieved me of my phone.

On the other hand, if I was stumbling down the street and someone said "can you spare some change" and I handed them a Eur50 note.. he said "God bless you" and I replied "Merry Christmas", only for the next morning to wake up and say "it wasn't consensual, I was drunk.. he took advantage of me"... well, that's a different thing altogether. Yes, he took advantage. Maybe I'll even have felt raped. But you can hardly call it a mugging.

Did you really just compare drunkenly giving away fifty euro to feeling like you've been raped? Whether meant to be ironic or not, that's seriously insulting every man, woman or child who's ever been raped. They're not even remotely comparable.

bonyn

Penny Tration wrote: »

The definition of rape really isn't murky in the slightest. It's sex without informed consent.

If someone is absolutely locked, they cannot give informed consent. So, don't shag people that are too drunk to walk straight, and you're good. Pretty simple, I'd have thought.

The only real grey area (which is a huge one, IMO) is that if BOTH people are so locked that they can't stand, only the man is at fault if sex happens. IMO neither can give informed consent, so I disagree that only the man in that scenario could be prosecuted.


Realistically though, how many people have drunk sex and go to the police? Even the woman in the Ched Evan's case didn't, she went to the police because she couldn't find her handbag.

and i'll refer you back to my post where I said it's not rape just because she can't commit her memories to the long-term. Most people know what they're doing when they're drunk, and it's no defence to say "well I would have behaved differently if I was sober" - that's why drink drivers don't get away with it.

Girl passed out.. that's rape.
Girl begging to be spitroasted after 2 bottles of wine.. well, enjoy it love, you won't be feeling so fresh in the morning.

As for Ched, he's not actually a convicted rapist. His conviction was overturned so he's back to being an alleged rapist. But just shows how devastating rape accusations can be to men, and why after all this time we still have judges trying to split hairs on what's rape and what isn't.

Little CuChulainn

Maximus Alexander wrote: »

You're both completely missing the point.

No, I just think it's reckless and dangerous to advise people against reducing their personal risk on a matter of principle.

bonyn

Penny Tration wrote: »

Did you really just compare drunkenly giving away fifty euro to feeling like you've been raped? Whether meant to be ironic or not, that's seriously insulting every man, woman or child who's ever been raped. They're not even remotely comparable.

No, I didn't.

I compared "not being mugged" to "not being raped."

Penny Tration

Penny Tration wrote: »

The definition of rape really isn't murky in the slightest. It's sex without informed consent.

explain that. I don't think I've ever had a woman say verbally to me "yes, I agree lets make love". Its usually a non-verbal indication. So how do we determine this informed consent>?

Maximus Alexander

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

No, I just think it's reckless and dangerous to advise people against reducing their personal risk on a matter of principle.

Agreed. Hasn't happened in this thread though.

sbsquarepants

I always use the same analogy.

You leave your front door open all night and your house gets robbed, the thief is 100% to blame, we can all agree on that.
That doesn't mean telling someone to lock their front door at night is bad advice.
It's clearly good solid advice and you'd do well to heed it.