Brexit & Working in the UK

With the upcoming vote in the UK and it looking more and more like they'll be leaving the EU (if polls are anything to go by), how will this affect Irish people moving and working in the UK?

I know we have a Common Travel Area, but is this expected to change if the vote passes?

Speedwell

I am a non-EU citizen (American) working from home for an IT company from London. They have properly registered as an Irish company and everything, so I am basically the Irish branch office of a very tiny multinational. I don't actually have the proper sort of visa to work in the UK, and they do not at present have the money to relocate me (though this is something my boss mentions from time to time as wanting to do). I don't think that it will affect me much because they are properly registered in the UK and in Ireland and I am paid in euro. But it still worries me.

uck51js9zml2yt

[Deleted User] wrote: »

With the upcoming vote in the UK and it looking more and more like they'll be leaving the EU (if polls are anything to go by), how will this affect Irish people moving and working in the UK?

I know we have a Common Travel Area, but is this expected to change if the vote passes?

No one knows

Speedwell

As far as the Common Travel Area is concerned, I think we need to think less about how the UK will handle it as how the EU will. Just a hunch purely.

323

Don't see why it would change OP. The Common Travel Area was there before the EU or even the EEC.
But Enda was in Queens earlier today spouting off all sorts of doom and gloom about putting in all sorts of border controls, no doubt his his boss Frau Merkels behest. Think it would be a case of cutting off your nose to spite your face.

Atlantic Dawn

Your worst worry would be if sterling dropped and imported goods became more expensive.

prinzeugen

Speedwell wrote: »

I am a non-EU citizen (American) working from home for an IT company from London. They have properly registered as an Irish company and everything, so I am basically the Irish branch office of a very tiny multinational. I don't actually have the proper sort of visa to work in the UK, and they do not at present have the money to relocate me (though this is something my boss mentions from time to time as wanting to do). I don't think that it will affect me much because they are properly registered in the UK and in Ireland and I am paid in euro. But it still worries me.

Are you in the UK?

If the UK border force finds out, you will be on the first flight back to the US tomorrow. Regardless of what employers say. And they are looking at a £20,000 fine for employing you without a UK work visa.

Leonard Hofstadter

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

Your worst worry would be if sterling dropped and imported goods became more expensive.

Sterling's already dropped quite a lot in the past few days, euro rates are down in the mid 1.20s now (1 GBP ~ 1.25 EUR at present).

As someone living and working in the UK, the prospect of a leave looks all the more likely, and that frankly terrifies me, not just for my job prospects (working in the science sector in a University, which is heavily dependent on EU funding), but what it will do to Ireland as well, there will be another recession in Ireland that's for sure (trading with our main partner - the UK, will be much more difficult with them outside the EU) and it will surely give ammunition to the lunatic AAA/PBP/I4C parties who will as surely as night follows day start pressing for us to do the same and take the country back into the dark ages.

Sterling will devalue even more sharply if the vote is for a Brexit, which will put Ireland under severe pressure as everything will seem even more expensive than it already does relative to the UK, however that is countered by the fact that going abroad will be much more expensive for those of us working with sterling, it will mean imports (especially the price of fuel) will shoot up, so families will be a lot worse off. Of course you might argue that a devalued currency will make the UK a much cheaper place to hire people, and British exports a lot cheaper, which will insulate them from these knock on effects, but with 50% of trade in limbo, what good is that (even the leave side have said they've no idea what's going to happen if the Brexit vote passes!)?

Overall, I don't think those of us working in the UK will be any worse affected by virtue of us being Irish - we'll just be affected by the economic downturn the same as our colleagues if we're in an industry that is reliant on trade with the Eurozone or has funding coming from Europe.

Speedwell

prinzeugen wrote: »

Are you in the UK?

If the UK border force finds out, you will be on the first flight back to the US tomorrow. Regardless of what employers say. And they are looking at a £20,000 fine for employing you without a UK work visa.

It is rather difficult to be the Irish branch office if I am not in Ireland, and they would hardly be considering relocating me if I were already in the UK. As an immigrant to Ireland I am not unaware of visa issues. Thank you anyway for your thoughtful and solicitous concern.

Tomk1

captainspeed wrote: »

Sterling will devalue even more sharply if the vote is for a Brexit

Seen this many times, sell high drive currency down buy low. I bet the day of the vote the Sterling will start rising regardless of outcome.
If they do exit a lot of Irish will head over there as low unemployment & the UK economy will boom, in fact they'd be better with a devalued Sterling, but as is its just investors trying to cash in. Sell @10000 buy @9000 goes back to 10000
make 1000.

Mrs OBumble

Most people I know reckon it would be good for Ireland medium term, because we would be the only English speaking country in the EU.

Pro Hoc Vice

Speedwell wrote: »

It is rather difficult to be the Irish branch office if I am not in Ireland, and they would hardly be considering relocating me if I were already in the UK. As an immigrant to Ireland I am not unaware of visa issues. Thank you anyway for your thoughtful and solicitous concern.

Reading your first post it seemed you are in the UK and from reading that post you seem not to have relevant visa.

Speedwell

Pro Hoc Vice wrote: »

Reading your first post it seemed you are in the UK and from reading that post you seem not to have relevant visa.

To clarify, I am not in the UK nor did I claim to be in the UK. I thought that was clear from context. I am working for a company that is based in the UK, but that went through the full legal process to start a registered Irish company that employs me. I do not at the moment have a visa for the UK that allows me to "work" in the UK, nor have I ever done impermissible work in the UK (I am fully conversant with what is considered "work" for visa purposes since I held meetings and training courses in Scotland for several years as part of a US-based multinational, with the proper UK visa for each kind of task). I do currently have full Stamp 4 permission to work for any employer in Ireland. I am fully covered from a visa and work permission standpoint. Please stand down.

Atlantic Dawn

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

Your worst worry would be if sterling dropped and imported goods became more expensive.

If Britain leave I'd guess the euro will dip too as one leaving could set things in motion for others that want to leave too

Pro Hoc Vice

Speedwell wrote: »

To clarify, I am not in the UK nor did I claim to be in the UK. I thought that was clear from context. I am working for a company that is based in the UK, but that went through the full legal process to start a registered Irish company that employs me. I do not at the moment have a visa for the UK that allows me to "work" in the UK, nor have I ever done impermissible work in the UK (I am fully conversant with what is considered "work" for visa purposes since I held meetings and training courses in Scotland for several years as part of a US-based multinational, with the proper UK visa for each kind of task). I do currently have full Stamp 4 permission to work for any employer in Ireland. I am fully covered from a visa and work permission standpoint. Please stand down.

I don't really care I just pointed out it your post could be read that you worked from home and from London. That's all and that is all I said I'm not from UKBC so it's none of my business.

12Phase

It won't make any difference to Irish and British citizens in the UK and Ireland as their status is covered by the CTA, not the EU. The importance of that is being totally overstated though as it means nothing about trade.

It will totally screw up trade though. That going to make life very hard for Irish non techie SMEs who are often very dependent on the uk as their first step into the overseas market and any company operating on an all-island Irish basis will suddenly have a customs border around the North.

It's fine for Irish companies that aren't depending on the uk market, areas like tech and banking etc will probably be totally fine. It's the SMEs in areas like food, drink, small services companies etc that will be damaged.

It's got the potential to do absolutely enormous damage to the Northern Ireland economy. That really worries me as it's not going to be able to just instantly reorientate it's economy and the Tories are keen on making its own way.

It will also totally screw up distribution channels for all sorts of good and food.

Total bloody disaster impending. This could cause a major recession in both Ireland and Britain.

Pro Hoc Vice

12Phase wrote: »

It won't make any difference to Irish and British citizens in the UK and Ireland as their status is covered by the CTA, not the EU.

It will totally screw up trade though. That going to make life very hard for Irish non techie SMEs who are often very dependent on the uk as their first step into the overseas market and any company operating on an all-island Irish basis will suddenly have a customs border around the North.

It's fine for Irish companies that aren't depending on the uk market, areas like tech and banking etc will probably be totally fine. It's the SMEs in areas like food, drink, small services companies etc that will be damaged.

It's got the potential to do absolutely enormous damage to the Northern Ireland economy. That really worries me as it's not going to be able to just instantly reorientate it's economy and the Tories are keen on making its own way.

It will also totally screw up distribution channels for all sorts of good and food.

Total bloody disaster impending. This could cause a major recession in both Ireland and Britain.

You assume that Ireland will keep or more importantly be able to keep the CTA, the U.K. May also as this is almost totally a immigration issue will want to keep the CTA. In fact no one can say with any certainty what will change and what will stay the same.

12Phase

They are highly unlikely to mess with it as it would cause chaos in NI though.

CTA is around a long time and even survived the troubles.

I don't think the CTA is even on the agenda in the uk at the moment. A lot of them don't even seem to realise we're foreign at all!

Pro Hoc Vice

12Phase wrote: »

They are highly unlikely to mess with it as it would cause chaos in NI though.

It may not be the UK's choice there could be pressure on Ireland to do away with CTA. No one knows what might or might not happen.

12Phase

Pro Hoc Vice wrote: »

It may not be the UK's choice there could be pressure on Ireland to do away with CTA. No one knows what might or might not happen.

Pressure from whom though? Based on what?
There's no particular reason why the EU would or could do that.

We aren't in Schengen and any attempt to force us in could trigger a referendum here... they're not going there.

In reality it would actually be a private bilateral agreement between two countries outside the scope of the EU.

Pro Hoc Vice

12Phase wrote: »

Pressure from whom though? Based on what?
There's no particular reason why the EU would or could do that.

We aren't in Schengen and any attempt to force us in could trigger a referendum here... they're not going there.

In reality it would actually be a private bilateral agreement between two countries outside the scope of the EU.

Ireland would have a land border with a non member of the EU. External borders of the EU are very much a matter for the EU.

The overall common travel area principle would probably continue to be supported by the two states.
It would probably be thought necessary to make specific adjustments to common travel area arrangements, e.g. to take account of persons with EU free movement rights in the Republic of Ireland, or to cater for international protection applicants
There could be pressure for wider changes to common travel area arrangements, such as the application of immigration control to air and sea travel from the Republic of Ireland to the UK, or rights of travel. These might lead on to consideration of a more comprehensive agreement between the two states.
It would be necessary to resolve the position of Irish citizens within UK immigration law and nationality law.
A wider questioning of the special status of Irish citizens in the UK, including their political rights, is also a possibility.

https://www.freemovement.org.uk/brexit-briefing-impact-on-common-travel-area-and-the-irish/

The important word in the conclusion is probably continue. But no one can say for certain.

12Phase

I think they're going to have to make an exception and fudge it. Otherwise, I could see this spinning into an Irish threat to exit if the economy goes into a tail spin or if NI erupts into violence or something.

The EU wouldn't really have much of an argument as Ireland's not in Schengen and operates its own visa regime anyway.

Other than we recognise other EU citizens' passports/ID cards and allow them free movement, rights to live/work here etc (but not passport / ID free entry) and we are recognised in the same way in the rest of the EU, Ireland operates a totally separate visa and immigration regime for non-EU nationals.

I can see absolutely no reason why it wouldn't just continue operating the CTA unchanged. It would be very different if we were in Schengen, but outside it, can't really see there being any issue.

Plenty of countries operate differing visa arrangement and agreements with different EU states too. It's still not treated as a single bloc, even if the EU would prefer that to be the case. The USA for example still treats some Eastern European EU members differently to Western ones which is a major bone of contention, but hasn't changed and with the legacy issues, the non-Schengen status etc etc, I would suspect it'll just be 'grandfathered' in the Irish-UK case.

Wanderer78

hope people have their zombie apocalypse plans in place, going by what the stay in camp are saying!

gustafo

For me personally i'm kind of worried also as i work offshore month on month off for a uk company but i go back to ireland on my time off so don't know how it would effect me if i need a work permit or visa to work in the uk, also sterling falling away has not been good for me.

Just will have to wait and see i suppose

12Phase

gustafo wrote: »

For me personally i'm kind of worried also as i work offshore month on month off for a uk company but i go back to ireland on my time off so don't know how it would effect me if i need a work permit or visa to work in the uk, also sterling falling away has not been good for me.

Just will have to wait and see i suppose

It's *highly* unlikely the UK would demand work permits of Irish Citizens or they'll find themselves in a total mess with Ireland demanding work permits of UK citizens which would impact hundreds of thousands of people both ways.

Britain would be shooting itself in both feet doing something like that.

The reality of this situation, which is something that the Brexiters aren't recognising, is all these agreements are two-way.
If the UK undermines other countries' citizens access to the UK, those countries will just reciprocate. There are hundreds of thousands of UK citizens in Ireland and France and over a million of them in Spain and quite a lot in other countries in the EU.

Jingoism and what's possible in reality are very different things.

Pro Hoc Vice

12Phase wrote: »

It's *highly* unlikely the UK would demand work permits of Irish Citizens or they'll find themselves in a total mess with Ireland demanding work permits of UK citizens which would impact hundreds of thousands of people both ways.

Britain would be shooting itself in both feet doing something like that.

The reality of this situation, which is something that the Brexiters aren't recognising, is all these agreements are two-way.
If the UK undermines other countries' citizens access to the UK, those countries will just reciprocate. There are hundreds of thousands of UK citizens in Ireland and France and over a million of them in Spain and quite a lot in other countries in the EU.

Jingoism and what's possible in reality are very different things.

Funny thing is the amount that prob vote out who have every intention of moving to Spain for for the twilight years who forget it's a two way street. But then again they are not immigrants they are ex-pats.

12Phase

Pro Hoc Vice wrote: »

Funny thing is the amount that prob vote out who have every intention of moving to Spain for for the twilight years who forget it's a two way street. But then again they are not immigrants they are ex-pats.

Spain's actually having a major national debate about UK pensioners too. There's increasing anger about people who have been using the Spanish healthcare system for long periods of time without signing up for the social services system i.e. just using their EHIC cards and not declaring residence.

That's going to boil over into a call for means tests for residency permits to prevent people from being burdens on the state and so on.

France is already mentioning that it will likely be requiring Carte de Sejour (Green Card) for UK citizens resident there and that comes with a package of means tests and even a requirement to speak a level of French in some cases for non-EU residency permits.

Whole thing could open up a complete mess for British pensioners, especially ones who moved just based on a house sale releasing capital and who relied on state pensions / state healthcare cover.

Even in basic terms, it means things like limited access to medical cover while on holiday in the EU. EHIC would be gone, so you'd be looking at UK citizens requiring more expensive medical insurance, particularly of extended stays beyond a few weeks.

UKIP could end up having to deal with a flood of British grey haired immigrants coming to take your house, clogging up A&Es in England...

prinzeugen

Speedwell wrote: »

I am a non-EU citizen (American) working from home for an IT company from London.

That's what made me ask if you were in the UK.. You said from London.

Speedwell

prinzeugen wrote: »

That's what made me ask if you were in the UK.. You said from London.

Right, I'm working from home for an IT company based in London.

Irish_Elect_Eng

The biggest risk to the CTA would be if Ireland's immigration policies allowed a large number of non-eu-nationals to transition through Ireland to the UK.

But that is unlikely at present.

The J Stands for Jay

RoboKlopp wrote: »

If Britain leave I'd guess the euro will dip too as one leaving could set things in motion for others that want to leave too

This is why I can see the EU negotiating a punitive deal with the UK if they leave. Absolutely destroy them so no one else fancys leaving.

mightybashful

Pro Hoc Vice wrote: »

Reading your first post it seemed you are in the UK and from reading that post you seem not to have relevant visa.

Exactly how I read it too

Speedwell

mightybashful wrote: »

Exactly how I read it too

Nobody else seems to misunderstand, including border staff when I travel, so I'm happy with that.

shaunr68

McGaggs wrote: »

This is why I can see the EU negotiating a punitive deal with the UK if they leave. Absolutely destroy them so no one else fancys leaving.

I can see that too, sadly. Shows an utter contempt for democracy and self determination.

Annasopra

Deleted User wrote: »

With the upcoming vote in the UK and it looking more and more like they'll be leaving the EU (if polls are anything to go by), how will this affect Irish people moving and working in the UK?

I know we have a Common Travel Area, but is this expected to change if the vote passes?

We can't say what will happen. And it will be a minimum of 2 years before it's clearer. Could take 4 or 6 tears if it turns into long negotiations.

Annasopra

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Most people I know reckon it would be good for Ireland medium term, because we would be the only English speaking country in the EU.

But all of our trade with the UK could be really badly affected because of currency fluctuation, border uncertainty, tarrif uncertainty. I really think that view is extremely optimistic.

Annasopra

12Phase wrote: »

They are highly unlikely to mess with it as it would cause chaos in NI though.

CTA is around a long time and even survived the troubles.

I don't think the CTA is even on the agenda in the uk at the moment. A lot of them don't even seem to realise we're foreign at all!

But there is no guarantees at all about the common travel area!

from_atozinc

Speedwell wrote: »

To clarify, I am not in the UK nor did I claim to be in the UK. I thought that was clear from context. I am working for a company that is based in the UK, but that went through the full legal process to start a registered Irish company that employs me. I do not at the moment have a visa for the UK that allows me to "work" in the UK, nor have I ever done impermissible work in the UK (I am fully conversant with what is considered "work" for visa purposes since I held meetings and training courses in Scotland for several years as part of a US-based multinational, with the proper UK visa for each kind of task). I do currently have full Stamp 4 permission to work for any employer in Ireland. I am fully covered from a visa and work permission standpoint. Please stand down.

So where are YOU based ?

BreadnBuddha

from_atozinc wrote: »

So where are YOU based ?

She's from the US, living and working in Ireland with the appropriate visa in place. She's employed by a wholly owned, Irish subsidiary of a small IT practice based in the UK.

FFS lads, it's not that difficult really, is it?

Pro Hoc Vice

BreadnBuddha wrote: »

He's from the US, living and working in Ireland with the appropriate visa in place. He's employed by a wholly owned, Irish subsidiary of a small IT practice based in the UK.

FFS lads, it's not that difficult really, is it?

Well he is a She.

BreadnBuddha

Pro Hoc Vice wrote: »

Well he is a She.

Duly noted and apologies to Speedwell.

Speedwell

BreadnBuddha wrote: »

Duly noted and apologies to Speedwell.

Heh, that particular confusion was occasionally useful when planning training trips to the Middle East in my previous job for the oil industry. I have a gender-ambiguous first name.

McSween

Speedwell wrote: »

To clarify, I am not in the UK nor did I claim to be in the UK. I thought that was clear from context. I am working for a company that is based in the UK, but that went through the full legal process to start a registered Irish company that employs me. I do not at the moment have a visa for the UK that allows me to "work" in the UK, nor have I ever done impermissible work in the UK (I am fully conversant with what is considered "work" for visa purposes since I held meetings and training courses in Scotland for several years as part of a US-based multinational, with the proper UK visa for each kind of task). I do currently have full Stamp 4 permission to work for any employer in Ireland. I am fully covered from a visa and work permission standpoint. Please stand down.

This is all well and good but do you mind uploading your documentation so those posters can verify them?

from_atozinc

BreadnBuddha wrote: »

Duly noted and apologies to Speedwell.

FFS, how did you mess that one up, morto for you.

from_atozinc

BreadnBuddha wrote: »

She's from the US, living and working in Ireland with the appropriate visa in place. She's employed by a wholly owned, Irish subsidiary of a small IT practice based in the UK.

FFS lads, it's not that difficult really, is it?

Ah yes, how could we have messed it up. It's such a straight forward and simple scenario after all. Silly us. :rolleyes:

Phoebas

323 wrote: »

Don't see why it would change OP. The Common Travel Area was there before the EU or even the EEC.
But Enda was in Queens earlier today spouting off all sorts of doom and gloom about putting in all sorts of border controls, no doubt his his boss Frau Merkels behest. Think it would be a case of cutting off your nose to spite your face.

The fact that the EU now exists is the reason why the CTA can't be taken for granted.
The CTA is an agreement between the UK and Ireland. When Ireland is in the EU and the UK isn't then the CTA becomes the EU's business.

Think what would the EU's reaction might be to a CTA between, say, Greece and Turkey.

myshirt

For anyone thinking of making a quick buck by holding short positions or trading on the volatility of Sterling, remember this is taxable at 33% for private individuals.

Eats right into the profit.

BreadnBuddha

from_atozinc wrote: »

Ah yes, how could we have messed it up. It's such a straight forward and simple scenario after all. Silly us. :rolleyes:

You said it.

BreadnBuddha

from_atozinc wrote: »

FFS, how did you mess that one up, morto for you.

I know. Absolutely morto. I was, like, misperceptive amazeballs doesn't even stawrt to explain it, you know. Fintan was, like, haw haw haw....

from_atozinc

BreadnBuddha wrote: »

You said it.

You missed the roll eyes.

qrx

Phoebas wrote: »

The fact that the EU now exists is the reason why the CTA can't be taken for granted.
The CTA is an agreement between the UK and Ireland. When Ireland is in the EU and the UK isn't then the CTA becomes the EU's business.

Think what would the EU's reaction might be to a CTA between, say, Greece and Turkey.

Being in the EU makes no difference. Why would EU workers travel to the UK via Ireland? They can get a flight direct to London for €1 if they keep an eye on the sales. Makes no sense for them to travel to Ireland, then to NI and then to the UK.

Also, the UK will still have control of their borders. The border won't be NI, it will be the Republic of Ireland and they'll control it by proxy. What I mean by that, is if there is something they don't like they'll simply get the Irish government to sort it, or else. Besides, It's also protected by water. we don't have a migrant problem in Ireland because quite simply hoping on a dingy to cross the Irish sea is suicide.