South Africa v Ireland, Match Thread

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

Adbrowne wrote: »

If he got a YC he would have been cited anyway and probably a longer ban

Unless the citing commissioner thought the yellow was the correct call and then he wouldn't have been cited.

jm08

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

Thats more or less it. He has been given a pretty good stint to show he is up to international rugby. And has never stepped up. Been overtaken now by too many exciting players delivering, or deserving their of own chance to stake a claim. Zeebs is off the agenda now.

Actually, Zebo has been used out of position at fullback for the last year or so.

phog

Adbrowne wrote: »

If he got a YC he would have been cited anyway and probably a longer ban

You mean just like Henshaw?

Adbrowne

phog wrote: »

You mean just like Henshaw?

Henshaw didnt do what stander did.

Billysays no

Have to admit I will never support this collision game strategy. Its flat colisions all the time. And in the end the bigger team wins. I will never support this. I bitched about henshaw doing same, i bitched about marmion being so slow about the ruck. I refuse to believe that our national team, that we build on the ability of our provinces, can be such an awful team

molloyjh

phog wrote: »

Looks like the week ban was issued to safe face for the officials. A guy with a YC would probably only have got that.

No. There have been other occasions where bans were not handed out after red cards. Wasn't there a game recently where a red card was doled out and the citing commissioner afterwards made a public statement to say the red card was wrong? Can't remember the details off-hand.

Apparently CJ got 2 weeks reduced to 1. It was dangerous play with no intent. Minimum sanction for that is 2 weeks. It all fits with the laws of the game.

Buer

molloyjh wrote: »

No. There have been other occasions where bans were not handed out after red cards. Wasn't there a game recently where a red card was doled out and the citing commissioner afterwards made a public statement to say the red card was wrong? Can't remember the details off-hand.

Henderson.

molloyjh

Billysays no wrote: »

Have to admit I will never support this collision game strategy. Its flat colisions all the time. And in the end the bigger team wins. I will never support this. I bitched about henshaw doing same, i bitched about marmion being so slow about the ruck. I refuse to believe that our national team, that we build on the ability of our provinces, can be such an awful team

So bad in fact that they can't even beat a team at home when that team are down a man for most of the game, and 2 men for some of that too.

Oh wait..... :rolleyes:

Look you come in here and spout this nonsense ad nauseum but you clearly haven't got a clue. Our national team has won 2 trophies in 3 years. Other than NZ name me another Tier 1 side that has done that lately. Our national team just won a Test in SA. Not something many teams have managed. And we did it with one hand tied behind our backs. If you want to keep sh*tting all over them even when they are doing well you're just being utterly ridiculous and you're also ruining this for the rest of us. Have some bloody respect for what the Irish team have achieved and show some bloody decency towards your fellow posters and pack it in already. We get it. We know. Now please move the f**k on and stop making this forum painful for everyone else with your whinging.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

Billysays no wrote: »

Have to admit I will never support this collision game strategy. Its flat colisions all the time. And in the end the bigger team wins. I will never support this. I bitched about henshaw doing same, i bitched about marmion being so slow about the ruck. I refuse to believe that our national team, that we build on the ability of our provinces, can be such an awful team

What happened, Billy?

You were making sense and being somewhat reasonable for a few days there.

phog

Adbrowne wrote: »

Henshaw didnt do what stander did.

What Henshaw did had more intent, he got his YC but not followed up with a citing.

molloyjh wrote: »

No. There have been other occasions where bans were not handed out after red cards. Wasn't there a game recently where a red card was doled out and the citing commissioner afterwards made a public statement to say the red card was wrong? Can't remember the details off-hand.

Apparently CJ got 2 weeks reduced to 1. It was dangerous play with no intent. Minimum sanction for that is 2 weeks. It all fits with the laws of the game.

If that was cut and dried why the delay in reaching its finding? Seems to me they wanted to give minimum ban to safe face.

Billysays no

molloyjh wrote: »

So bad in fact that they can't even beat a team at home when that team are down a man for most of the game, and 2 men for some of that too.

Oh wait..... :rolleyes:

Look you come in here and spout this nonsense ad nauseum but you clearly haven't got a clue. Our national team has won 2 trophies in 3 years. Other than NZ name me another Tier 1 side that has done that lately. Our national team just won a Test in SA. Not something many teams have managed. And we did it with one hand tied behind our backs. If you want to keep sh*tting all over them even when they are doing well you're just being utterly ridiculous and you're also ruining this for the rest of us. Have some bloody respect for what the Irish team have achieved and show some bloody decency towards your fellow posters and pack it in already. We get it. We know. Now please move the f**k on and stop making this forum painful for everyone else with your whinging.

So that wasnt the most horrible rugby you have ever seen? And you are happy to witness this flat rugby once again? Because you won a game? If this is what qualifies as success then Coetzee has a point

The Rape of Lucretia

Billysays no wrote: »

So that wasnt the most horrible rugby you have ever seen?

Most certainly not. Some of it was really excellent.

Adbrowne

Billysays no wrote: »

So that wasnt the most horrible rugby you have ever seen? And you are happy to witness this flat rugby once again? Because you won a game? If this is what qualifies as success then Coetzee has a point

Flat rugby? Did you actually watch the game?

connemara man

Billysays no wrote: »

So that wasnt the most horrible rugby you have ever seen? And you are happy to witness this flat rugby once again? Because you won a game? If this is what qualifies as success then Coetzee has a point

Billy do you expect any team to play like the type of rugby you want with 14 men on the field for 60 minutes and 13 for 10 of them?

It's an unfair criticism of the team and management in those conditions. The Rugby we played before the red was some of the most open rugby Ireland have played in ages and was great to watch.

Neil3030

So I had another look at the phases that lead to Murray's final box kick and I have to say we were under very little pressure at the breakdown. If I remember correctly, from the scrum there were two phases where SA committed nobody to the ruck, then a third where they committed one, right before the box kick. So he must have feared they were laying a trap, to eventually overload an ensuing ruck to win the turnover. They had a nice line spread out, while we were a bit more all over the place.

Adbrowne

phog wrote: »

What Henshaw did had more intent, he got his YC but not followed up with a citing.



If that was cut and dried why the delay in reaching its finding? Seems to me they wanted to give minimum ban to safe face.

Im assuming Stander pleaded not guilty because JS said ireland would fight it so ireland put a case together and the result was the minimum 2 weeks cut for good record etc. Cant see how it was face saving when the ban is in line with other bans handed out for a player making contact with the head of an opponent (puafisi for example)

Henshaw made a high tackle but he was standing up straight against a shorter opponent. High tackles get punished according to seriousness. Maestri got YC after the match in february for his shoulder charge on sexton so The yc for Henshaw was consistent.

Billysays no

connemara man wrote: »

Billy do you expect any team to play like the type of rugby you want with 14 men on the field for 60 minutes and 13 for 10 of them?

It's an unfair criticism of the team and management in those conditions. The Rugby we played before the red was some of the most open rugby Ireland have played in ages and was great to watch.

I accept that critisism. Totally valid point. And yet I struggle so much with this 'stuff'. I remember murray kicking a high ball for hensahw to nail against england. It sums up the rubbish. We will never have a winger who does things like healy. Its simply soul destroying to watch how the only way murray can use a winger is do a boxkick. He is incapable otherwise. Its no wonder Munster have issues

thomond2006

Billysays no wrote: »

Have to admit I will never support this collision game strategy. Its flat colisions all the time. And in the end the bigger team wins. I will never support this. I bitched about henshaw doing same, i bitched about marmion being so slow about the ruck. I refuse to believe that our national team, that we build on the ability of our provinces, can be such an awful team

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EAD7L_GWkb0

molloyjh

phog wrote: »

If that was cut and dried why the delay in reaching its finding? Seems to me they wanted to give minimum ban to safe face.

Well I'm sure there's no way to change that. It's a completely subjective opinion that has no backing evidence whatsoever to support it. On the other hand the fact that we've seen citing panels overturn red cards recently plus the fact that the entry level for the offence is 2 weeks plus the fact that it was clearly unintentional would all suggest a 2 week ban. CJs good record (and tie and humble demeanour in the citing hearing) would be enough, based on all known precendent, to reduce that to 1 week.

So there's a pretty clear and obvious logic and rational to the sentence based on evidence and precedent. Obviously you're entitled to your opinion but it seems odd to ignore the above I would have thought?

molloyjh

I see Billy has chosen to ignore the substantive point in my post so that he can continue on ranting. Any chance we can all stick him on ignore so that we can get a bit of peace? There is no more discussion to be had here. Hell, in all reality there never was.

EDIT: And no, for the record that was a long, long way from the worst game of rugby that I have ever seen. But with utterly facile and hyperbolic statements like that is there really any point in engaging further?

mfceiling

Billysays no wrote: »

I accept that critisism. Totally valid point. And yet I struggle so much with this 'stuff'. I remember murray kicking a high ball for hensahw to nail against england. It sums up the rubbish. We will never have a winger who does things like healy. Its simply soul destroying to watch how the only way murray can use a winger is do a boxkick. He is incapable otherwise. Its no wonder Munster have issues

How can Murray ruin a winger? Seriously?

He box kicks - the winger chases it.

He passes to the first receiver (normally the 10) and the ball is passed along the backline.

Where does this fit your adjective of him ruining wingers?

Billysays no

molloyjh wrote: »

I see Billy has chosen to ignore the substantive point in my post so that he can continue on ranting. Any chance we can all stick him on ignore so that we can get a bit of peace? There is no more discussion to be had here. Hell, in all reality there never was.

EDIT: And no, for the record that was a long, long way from the worst game of rugby that I have ever seen. But with utterly facile and hyperbolic statements like that is there really any point in engaging further?

I'm sorry mollyj. I tend to ignore (to a degree) the need to crash lines and feel proud about it, and then crash again, and then maybe crash again. And if your lacking ideas lets just crash again. My viewpoint of Joe. And at least he said we would finish 6 nations midtable with this rubbish. He is a teacher, he knows a pass mark. He got lucky with a new coach and an equality issue.

Zzippy

Billy you have been banging this drum for a few weeks now, across numerous threads. You don't like the style Ireland play. You think playing on while a player is down is not rugby. We are all well aware of that by now. That's enough, we've all had more than enough of those discussions. Find a different bee in your bonnet to rant about.

Everyone else, quit it with the derogatory posts and backseat modding about the quality of posts and discussion in the forum. To those who report posts, thank you. They may not always be acted on because they don't pass a threshold to be considered trolling, but we do appreciate the assistance. To those who bitch and moan in the forum, and make snide comments, those will no longer be tolerated.

Billysays no

Zzippy wrote: »

Billy you have been banging this drum for a few weeks now, across numerous threads. You don't like the style Ireland play. You think playing on while a player is down is not rugby. We are all well aware of that by now. That's enough, we've all had more than enough of those discussions. Find a different bee in your bonnet to rant about.

Everyone else, quit it with the derogatory posts and backseat modding about the quality of posts and discussion in the forum. To those who report posts, thank you. They may not always be acted on because they don't pass a threshold to be considered trolling, but we do appreciate the assistance. To those who bitch and moan in the forum, and make snide comments, those will no longer be tolerated.

Zzippy I fight a corner in what I believe. I don't apologize for that. I don't shower abuse on other users as abuse has been heavily showered on me.

MJohnston

Billysays no wrote: »

I'm sorry mollyj. I tend to ignore (to a degree) the need to crash lines and feel proud about it, and then crash again, and then maybe crash again. And if your lacking ideas lets just crash again. My viewpoint of Joe. And at least he said we would finish 6 nations midtable with this rubbish. He is a teacher, he knows a pass mark. He got lucky with a new coach and an equality issue.

So is it that are Ireland a team that can only box kick, or a team that can only play crashball? Because those two opinions that you have posted in quick succession seem rather diametrically opposed.

Of course, it doesn't really matter, because the only one-dimensional team on the pitch on Saturday was South Africa. Ireland had fantastic variation in attack even when they were 2 men down (the way PJ co-ordinated that drop goal was just lovely) and tremendous bravery, intelligence and resilience in defence.

It was a hugely entertaining game, and I think you need to refresh your talking points as they seem to be targeted at the early-Six Nations 2016 Ireland, and not the team that made history on Saturday past.

nehe milner skudder

surprised henshaw didn't get done. his tackle was a disgrace.

MJohnston

nehe milner skudder wrote: »

surprised henshaw didn't get done. his tackle was a disgrace.

Clearly no intent really, and he was punished enough on the day.

phog

Adbrowne wrote: »

Im assuming Stander pleaded not guilty because JS said ireland would fight it so ireland put a case together and the result was the minimum 2 weeks cut for good record etc. Cant see how it was face saving when the ban is in line with other bans handed out for a player making contact with the head of an opponent (puafisi for example)

Henshaw made a high tackle but he was standing up straight against a shorter opponent. High tackles get punished according to seriousness. Maestri got YC after the match in february for his shoulder charge on sexton so The yc for Henshaw was consistent.

molloyjh wrote: »

Well I'm sure there's no way to change that. It's a completely subjective opinion that has no backing evidence whatsoever to support it. On the other hand the fact that we've seen citing panels overturn red cards recently plus the fact that the entry level for the offence is 2 weeks plus the fact that it was clearly unintentional would all suggest a 2 week ban. CJs good record (and tie and humble demeanour in the citing hearing) would be enough, based on all known precendent, to reduce that to 1 week.

So there's a pretty clear and obvious logic and rational to the sentence based on evidence and precedent. Obviously you're entitled to your opinion but it seems odd to ignore the above I would have thought?

You can also add in a former international ref saying it was incorrect to issue a red card and then Joe (who hasn't been shy about complaining about head injuries due to recklessness) saying the decision to issue a red card was very, very harsh, SA didn't seem to make an issue of it unlike the French in the SOB case.

Pretty obvious to anyone that there's divided opinion on the card and the delay in reaching their decision leads me to believe they were trying to save face.

If it was so straightforward then why had we such a long drawn out process?

thomond2006

phog wrote: »

You can also add in a former international ref saying it was incorrect to issue a red card and then Joe (who hasn't been shy about complaining about head injuries due to recklessness) saying the decision to issue a red card was very, very harsh, SA didn't seem to make an issue of it unlike the French in the SOB case.

Pretty obvious to anyone that there's divided opinion on the card and the delay in reaching their decision leads me to believe they were trying to save face.

If it was so straightforward then why had we such a long drawn out process?

Here's your answer.

The disciplinary hearing that followed was adjourned by Willis after five hours on Sunday, and again after it was renewed on Monday morning.

This was apparently so as Willis could consult with a sports biomechanics expert after Ireland, who had engaged a South African lawyer who has represented foreign players in disciplinary hearings before, cited another example in the second half. That came when South Africa fullback Willie le Roux made slight contact with Paddy Jackson in attempting to do as Stander had done and when also unable to change direction in mid-air.

http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/international/cj-stander-receives-one-week-ban-for-pat-lambie-tackle-1.2683390

Billysays no

MJohnston wrote: »

So is it that are Ireland a team that can only box kick, or a team that can only play crashball? Because those two opinions that you have posted in quick succession seem rather diametrically opposed.

Of course, it doesn't really matter, because the only one-dimensional team on the pitch on Saturday was South Africa. Ireland had fantastic variation in attack even when they were 2 men down (the way PJ co-ordinated that drop goal was just lovely) and tremendous bravery, intelligence and resilience in defence.

It was a hugely entertaining game, and I think you need to refresh your talking points as they seem to be targeted at the early-Six Nations 2016 Ireland, and not the team that made history on Saturday past.

mjohnston it sums the game. we can only get our wingers involved with a boxkick, we can only crash ball otherwise. thats it. no more ideas. can i say i really, really, really don't like joe or would somebody get upset?