Ulster Bank League 2016-2017 Talk/Gossip/Rumours

Tarf1234

ArmchairQB wrote: »

My Prediction for a bit of fun so early in the season would be:

• Clontarf 9/4 - Favourites to win title
• Lansdowne 7/1
• Cork Con 7/2
• Young Munster 7/1
• UCD 10/3
• Old Belvedere 9/1
• Terenure College 25/1
• St Marys College 20/1
• Garryowen 14/1
• Dublin University 25/1 - Joint Favourites for Relegation

The only changes I'd make to that would be to bump up YM over Lansdowne and push everyone back down one. Maybe Garryowen and Nure swapping. Marys looked decent when I saw them but I think they've signed so many new players that if it takes them a while to gel they could be in trouble. I do think it will be quite open and could see UCD following up on last year and potentially pushing into top 4 and who knows from there.

Tarf1234

Stainalert wrote: »

Good article

http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/gerry-thornley-clubs-know-how-they-can-help-boost-irish-game-1.2786025

Great article, if only the IRFU would listen. I fear this will yet again fall on deaf ears.

Nba man

And to hell with the country teams or less established city clubs, let them battle away in the lower divisions, make it impossible for any club to break into the top division.


What you will end up then is a top division and the rest of the club game dies underneath it.


Short sighted solution to suit the top clubs, why didn t he get a quote from a coach in a division 2B or 2C club, a club struggling with numbers, financial difficulties, or a club who cant compete with the big clubs in the transfer market and the big clubs get stronger again by getting allocated all the pro/academy/sub academy players.

The Lost Sheep

Stainalert wrote: »

Good article

http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/gerry-thornley-clubs-know-how-they-can-help-boost-irish-game-1.2786025

Tarf1234 wrote: »

Great article, if only the IRFU would listen. I fear this will yet again fall on deaf ears.

Splitting up all contracted players etc only works if you cut off the top leagues and create a divide and that only suits the top clubs, the ones who's coaches are speaking in this article.
B&I Cup is great for bringing game to wider audience. Munster have used it very well to bring games to places the professional side will never play. B&I Cup allows top players in clubs and contracted guys play together which is a benefit. When Belvos coach is talking about a draft situation I assume he is only talking about the top division and maybe the second division so the bigger clubs and not the clubs in the areas where the game has grown the most over the past decade or two the real community clubs like Navan, Bruff, Sligo etc

Nba man wrote: »

And to hell with the country teams or less established city clubs, let them battle away in the lower divisions, make it impossible for any club to break into the top division.

What you will end up then is a top division and the rest of the club game dies underneath it.

Short sighted solution to suit the top clubs, why didnt he get a quote from a coach in a division 2B or 2C club, a club struggling with numbers, financial difficulties, or a club who cant compete with the big clubs in the transfer market and the big clubs get stronger again by getting allocated all the pro/academy/sub academy players.

+1
Especially your last paragraph

GavMan

No solution is ideal, you can please everyone.

One thing is for sure is that the league can't continue as it is.

Nba man

Agree something needs to be done, that article just goes to show how out of touch some people are from the club rugby situation, and lazy research, if he made a few more phone calls he might have had a decent story where he could have opened some peoples eyes to the problems.



My two cents, the sub academy and academy players should be split across all the divisions, time and time again these players come out of school or underage level and are told by the provincial academies to find a 1A/1B club, and a lot of them spend the year then playing very little rugby, as they are not making the 1A/1B teams.

Surely these players would be better off playing AIL rugby every Saturday with a lower division team learning there trade, and as they progress to full contracts they can move to the top division.

I can see the argument for a fully contracted player not making his provincial team and then playing in the top division, but split them between all the 1A and 1B clubs, not stocking up certain clubs because of reputation, connections, etc.

Tarf1234

How many Academy or contracted players are playing with 2B or 2C or regional leagues? Is there any academy players outside of 1A in Leinster or Munster? You quote financial difficulty and with the same wand say that clubs should be encouraged to push beyond themselves. This is exactly what has gotten the vast majority of these clubs into trouble.

Nba man

I never said clubs should push beyond themselves, getting a fair allocation of players from your province shouldn't cost a club any money.

The IRFU rule on paying players has been a farce, players are still being incentivised.

I don't know the exact numbers and won't pretend too, I would think there is not a lot of sub academy/academy/contracted players currently playing outside 1B, but open to be proven wrong.

The Lost Sheep

GavMan wrote: »

No solution is ideal, you can please everyone.

One thing is for sure is that the league can't continue as it is.

Possibly but you must take into account the differences between the bigger clubs in cities and the more rural community clubs and make for some sort of compromise between each.

Nba man wrote: »

Agree something needs to be done, that article just goes to show how out of touch some people are from the club rugby situation, and lazy research, if he made a few more phone calls he might have had a decent story where he could have opened some peoples eyes to the problems.

My two cents, the sub academy and academy players should be split across all the divisions, time and time again these players come out of school or underage level and are told by the provincial academies to find a 1A/1B club, and a lot of them spend the year then playing very little rugby, as they are not making the 1A/1B teams.

Surely these players would be better off playing AIL rugby every Saturday with a lower division team learning there trade, and as they progress to full contracts they can move to the top division.

I can see the argument for a fully contracted player not making his provincial team and then playing in the top division, but split them between all the 1A and 1B clubs, not stocking up certain clubs because of reputation, connections, etc.

But those in the academies and sub academies will want and the provinces will want them to be playing the highest level of rugby possible. Most/all academy players play AIL when theyre available to.

Tarf1234 wrote: »

How many Academy or contracted players are playing with 2B or 2C or regional leagues? Is there any academy players outside of 1A in Leinster or Munster? You quote financial difficulty and with the same wand say that clubs should be encouraged to push beyond themselves. This is exactly what has gotten the vast majority of these clubs into trouble.

There is some or has been some academy players in UCC and Queens and they've been 2A for the past few years. But with so many clubs in Dublin, Limerick division 1 it isn't so much the case there

Nba man wrote: »

I never said clubs should push beyond themselves, getting a fair allocation of players from your province shouldn't cost a club any money.

The IRFU rule on paying players has been a farce, players are still being incentivised.

I don't know the exact numbers and won't pretend too, I would think there is not a lot of sub academy/academy/contracted players currently playing outside 1B, but open to be proven wrong.

Of course players are still being paid. They always will. Its impossible to stop. There is plenty of academy players below 1B but its only really in Connacht with Sligo, Corinthians and Ulster with Queens and a few other clubs where there is academy players playing

Stainalert

Nba man wrote: »

Agree something needs to be done, that article just goes to show how out of touch some people are from the club rugby situation, and lazy research, if he made a few more phone calls he might have had a decent story where he could have opened some peoples eyes to the problems.



My two cents, the sub academy and academy players should be split across all the divisions, time and time again these players come out of school or underage level and are told by the provincial academies to find a 1A/1B club, and a lot of them spend the year then playing very little rugby, as they are not making the 1A/1B teams.

Surely these players would be better off playing AIL rugby every Saturday with a lower division team learning there trade, and as they progress to full contracts they can move to the top division.

I can see the argument for a fully contracted player not making his provincial team and then playing in the top division, but split them between all the 1A and 1B clubs, not stocking up certain clubs because of reputation, connections, etc.

Very few academy players not playing AIL rugby on a regular basis. Most generally play a lot and would play more if it were not for B&I and A games. Sub academy players probably not ready for senior rugby. The major imbalance in the system is actually the universities who throw so many scholarships at players that they have huge depth of talent and in cases like this players do get enough playing opportunities. This is not good for player development.

The basic premise of the article is about raising the profile and standard of club rugby so having most of the academy players & pro players in 1A & 1B makes sense if these are the aims. This would actually mean other players filtering down to other divisions so all clubs should benefit. Don't agree with the idea of a draft system or the idea that players get redistributed if a club gets relegated.

Stainalert

http://www.limerickleader.ie/news/sport/215879/big-kick-off-arrives-for-local-ail-clubs.html

Tarf1234

Stainalert wrote: »

Very few academy players not playing AIL rugby on a regular basis. Most generally play a lot and would play more if it were not for B&I and A games. Sub academy players probably not ready for senior rugby. The major imbalance in the system is actually the universities who throw so many scholarships at players that they have huge depth of talent and in cases like this players do get enough playing opportunities. This is not good for player development.

The basic premise of the article is about raising the profile and standard of club rugby so having most of the academy players & pro players in 1A & 1B makes sense if these are the aims. This would actually mean other players filtering down to other divisions so all clubs should benefit. Don't agree with the idea of a draft system or the idea that players get redistributed if a club gets relegated.

There is plenty of Sub academy players playing AIL as well. If you take out the UCD guys I would say most sub academy are getting a few AIL games at the very least in Dublin clubs. I've been told that this year all the players have been advised that they won't get Irish 20s unless they are playing regularly in AIL. For the Leinster lads that is 1A from what was said to me with maybe a couple of exceptions.

Completely agree with your second point. The point is being completely missed. We are trying to raise the profile not flatten it out to where the standard becomes so poor it becomes irrelevant.

Really do not agree with the draft system either but some kind of effort should be made to stop the pooling of players in UCD in particular (I know that is Leinster specific).

I am also aware that this does mean that we won't see any active Irish internationals play in the 3rd tier of the Leinster League anymore but that is a sacrifice I am willing to make.

Stainalert

Tarf1234 wrote: »

There is plenty of Sub academy players playing AIL as well. If you take out the UCD guys I would say most sub academy are getting a few AIL games at the very least in Dublin clubs. I've been told that this year all the players have been advised that they won't get Irish 20s unless they are playing regularly in AIL. For the Leinster lads that is 1A from what was said to me with maybe a couple of exceptions.

Completely agree with your second point. The point is being completely missed. We are trying to raise the profile not flatten it out to where the standard becomes so poor it becomes irrelevant.

Really do not agree with the draft system either but some kind of effort should be made to stop the pooling of players in UCD in particular (I know that is Leinster specific).

I am also aware that this does mean that we won't see any active Irish internationals play in the 3rd tier of the Leinster League anymore but that is a sacrifice I am willing to make.

Yea I think my point re sub academy guys was if they are not playing AIL rugby they are probably just not physically mature enough or experienced enough and that will come over time. It is unrealistic for academies to expect all their sub academy players to be playing Ail week in week out.

Tarf1234

Stainalert wrote: »

Yea I think my point re sub academy guys was if they are not playing AIL rugby they are probably just not physically mature enough or experienced enough and that will come over time. It is unrealistic for academies to expect all their sub academy players to be playing Ail week in week out.

Agreed and they are definitely better served playing in the 20s league and developing skill while they mature physically if they are too small in my opinion.

The Lost Sheep

Stainalert wrote: »

Very few academy players not playing AIL rugby on a regular basis. Most generally play a lot and would play more if it were not for B&I and A games. Sub academy players probably not ready for senior rugby. The major imbalance in the system is actually the universities who throw so many scholarships at players that they have huge depth of talent and in cases like this players do get enough playing opportunities. This is not good for player development.

The basic premise of the article is about raising the profile and standard of club rugby so having most of the academy players & pro players in 1A & 1B makes sense if these are the aims. This would actually mean other players filtering down to other divisions so all clubs should benefit. Don't agree with the idea of a draft system or the idea that players get redistributed if a club gets relegated.

Would it see players filter down though?
I don't see too much problem with a draft situation. It has worked in other countries where contracted players are drafted to senior clubs and are redistributed at start of new seasons if its necessary to do so.

Stainalert wrote: »

http://www.limerickleader.ie/news/sport/215879/big-kick-off-arrives-for-local-ail-clubs.html

Shane Airey moved again. Is 22 and with his 4th club.

Tarf1234 wrote: »

Agreed and they are definitely better served playing in the 20s league and developing skill while they mature physically.

Or playing dual status 20s and with a lower level AIL team like a division 2B/C team.

GavMan

No chance any serious academy prospect / up and comer on a dev contract or year 1 pro contract will want to be playing 2C just to get game time. They will want/need to be in 1a (b at a push) to feel like they are getting anything out of the exercise.

If a team comes up to 1B and gets their fair share of the 'draft' doesn't that make sure they're not up against it.

The other side of the coin is that if you're relegated to 2a, and you lose your provincial players, it kinda rips the heart out of your squad. Clubs may not have suitable replacement on hand.

As I said, the problems are very hard to come up with perfect solutions. There will be some winners and some losers...as in all walks of life

The Lost Sheep

GavMan wrote: »

No chance any serious academy prospect / up and comer on a dev contract or year 1 pro contract will want to be playing 2C just to get game time. They will want/need to be in 1a (b at a push) to feel like they are getting anything out of the exercise.

If a team comes up to 1B and gets their fair share of the 'draft' doesn't that make sure they're not up against it.

The other side of the coin is that if you're relegated to 2a, and you lose your provincial players, it kinda rips the heart out of your squad. Clubs may not have suitable replacement on hand.

As I said, the problems are very hard to come up with perfect solutions. There will be some winners and some losers...as in all walks of life

All depends on the province and Leinster with so many division 1 clubs are different to all others. But if you are 18 and a potential prospect surely you would be better in your first year out of school to be playing AIL in division 2B/C and then move to play 20s and if you can AIL in a higher grade club.

Tarf1234

I would have thought you would be better off playing 20s straight out of school personally.

On the dual status point my understanding was this was for players who would not be making the U20s team in the senior club so they could go back and play with their previous (non ail) club. Open to correction though. Any player who is sub academy or looking to be sub academy should be able to get their game in a senior clubs U20 team.

I don't think the draft is the worst idea in the world but I have an issue with forcing players to join clubs. Particularly if they are forced out of their home club where they've played their whole life.

The Lost Sheep

Tarf1234 wrote: »

I would have thought you would be better off playing 20s straight out of school personally.

On the dual status point my understanding was this was for players who would not be making the U20s team in the senior club so they could go back and play with their previous (non ail) club. Open to correction though. Any player who is sub academy or looking to be sub academy should be able to get their game in a senior clubs U20 team.

I don't think the draft is the worst idea in the world but I have an issue with forcing players to join clubs. Particularly if they are forced out of their home club where they've played their whole life.

Whats your thinking behind playing 20s over AIL?
Ive know plenty whove done both and think from talking to many of them theyd prefer the AIL route. Ive played 20s on loan and yes you can go back to your main club if on dual status and just play with them at any stage. Yes any player in sub academy or looking for that should be able to make a clubs u20 team but surely if looking to progress they should look to play AIL in division 2 which will test them more especially if theyre in a club thats AIL side is division 1A and theyve no hope of playing with that. AIL 2 is a higher standard than 20s albeit slower for obvious reasons.
I dont see a draft being a bad thing at all. How many guys are playing with the one club? Huge numbers will have spent their entire teens in a rugby school not associated with any club

Stainalert

1A

Terenure v Trinity - Expect a close encounter but backing Terenure to make the most of home advantage

Garryowen v Lansdowne - Tough start for Lansdowne on the road to Limerick but will back them

St Marys v Cork Con - Expect Con to challenge strongly this year and will get off too a win

UCD v Clontarf - UCD look like they a decent team out but I think Tarf know how to beat the students so expect a close battle with Tarf to edge it

Young Munster v Old Belvedere - Belvo have recruited well as have Munsters I believe. Very hard to look past Munsters at home though so going with Munsters


1B
Ballynahinch v Buccaneers
Expect Hinch to bounce straight back up starting with a win against Buccs

Dolphin v UL Bohs
Expect Dolphin to start with a bang under Corkery

Naas v Galwegians
Really depends on what hand Galwegians are dealt by Connacht. Going to side with Naas

Shannon v Ballymena
Tough trip but think Ballymena will prevail

UCC v Old Wesley
Old Wesley will be battle hardened after playing 3 1A teams in the Leinster league. Think UCC can do well in this league but might take a bit of time to settle so Old Wesley to bag an away win.

Tarf1234

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Tarf1234 wrote: »

I would have thought you would be better off playing 20s straight out of school personally.

On the dual status point my understanding was this was for players who would not be making the U20s team in the senior club so they could go back and play with their previous (non ail) club. Open to correction though. Any player who is sub academy or looking to be sub academy should be able to get their game in a senior clubs U20 team.

I don't think the draft is the worst idea in the world but I have an issue with forcing players to join clubs. Particularly if they are forced out of their home club where they've played their whole life.

Whats your thinking behind playing 20s over AIL?
Ive know plenty whove done both and think from talking to many of them theyd prefer the AIL route. Ive played 20s on loan and yes you can go back to your main club if on dual status and just play with them at any stage. Yes any player in sub academy or looking for that should be able to make a clubs u20 team but surely if looking to progress they should look to play AIL in division 2 which will test them more especially if theyre in a club thats AIL side is division 1A and theyve no hope of playing with that. AIL 2 is a higher standard than 20s albeit slower for obvious reasons.
I dont see a draft being a bad thing at all. How many guys are playing with the one club? Huge numbers will have spent their entire teens in a rugby school not associated with any club

I just think U20 would be a higher skill and speed level to AIL in 2A/B/C which would be better for someone who is waiting to physically develop towards adult rugby. Chances are if you're too small for 1A your probably not far off too small for 2A/B/C as well.

On the dual status I'm not against it just yet to see it work well first hand and haven't heard any success stories from anyone else (not that I've heard anything bad about it from anyone either).

As I said I'm not completely opposed to the draft but it would depend on to what extent you are stretching the draft over. Is it all academy guys or sub academy up or Leinster reps up? Also to what leagues would you be drafting players out too? I think it would be highly unfair to make a player good enough to start for the best team in 1A go to a newly promoted and much weaker 1B club for example. Also I know it would not be a regular problem and is largely hypothetical but forcing a player to leave his home club is wrong in my opinion.

turtleshead

Delighted to have the league back again, should be an interesting few weeks, here are my predictions for 1A/AB

Terenure v Trinity - Terenure in a close one

Garryowen v Lansdowne - Lansdowne think its going to be a long season for Garryowen

St Marys v Cork Con - Home advantage to shade it for Mary's

UCD v Clontarf - Tarf to win just about

Young Munster v Old Belvedere - Belvos Leinster Senior League form has been excellent, going to back them in another close one

1B
Ballynahinch v Buccaneers
Hinch should be strong enough to see this one through

Dolphin v UL Bohs
going to call this a draw

Naas v Galwegians
Galweigans should benefit by Connachts lack of involvement in the under20/academy league

Shannon v Ballymena
Shannon will surprise teams this year fancy them to take this

UCC v Old Wesley
Old Wesleys experience to win it out for them

The Sceptic

Terenure v Trinity - Terenure

Garryowen v Lansdowne - Lansdowne

St Marys v Cork Con - Cork Con

UCD v Clontarf - Clontarf

Young Munster v Old Belvedere - Young Munster

1B
Ballynahinch v Buccaneers - Buccaneers

Dolphin v UL Bohs - UL Bohs

Naas v Galwegians - Naas

Shannon v Ballymena - Shannon

UCC v Old Wesley - UCC

Stainalert

Interesting weekend for results - certainly didn't see the 5 away wins in 1A coming!

Great start to 1A for Terenure and excellent away win for Old Belvedere.

Garryowen Lansdowne game was farcical at times as the game went to uncontested scrums after about 20 minutes.

UL Bohs seem to have got off to a flying start against Bohs in 1B.

GavMan

Was at Rock Corinthians. Rock will rue not getting the 4th try BP after a fairly rampant 3rd quarter. They dropped off the intensity in the final quarter and allowed Corinthians to get a losing BP.

Plenty of skill and endeavor on show from both sides but some of it was forced. Lots of passes and offloads went to deck. Corinthians could struggle this season again. They are a seriously small looking side.

The Lost Sheep

Tarf1234 wrote: »

I just think U20 would be a higher skill and speed level to AIL in 2A/B/C which would be better for someone who is waiting to physically develop towards adult rugby. Chances are if you're too small for 1A your probably not far off too small for 2A/B/C as well.

On the dual status I'm not against it just yet to see it work well first hand and haven't heard any success stories from anyone else (not that I've heard anything bad about it from anyone either).

As I said I'm not completely opposed to the draft but it would depend on to what extent you are stretching the draft over. Is it all academy guys or sub academy up or Leinster reps up? Also to what leagues would you be drafting players out too? I think it would be highly unfair to make a player good enough to start for the best team in 1A go to a newly promoted and much weaker 1B club for example. Also I know it would not be a regular problem and is largely hypothetical but forcing a player to leave his home club is wrong in my opinion.

Higher skill in some areas but playing AIL will harden you and teach you things 20s never will.
I have seen plenty of dual status work well. It allows high quality players play to their ability will also remaining with their home club.
There has always been players playing well below their abilities and a draft means players are not stockpiled which is better for competition.

Stainalert wrote: »

Interesting weekend for results - certainly didn't see the 5 away wins in 1A coming!

Great start to 1A for Terenure and excellent away win for Old Belvedere.

Garryowen Lansdowne game was farcical at times as the game went to uncontested scrums after about 20 minutes.

UL Bohs seem to have got off to a flying start against Bohs in 1B.

I assume you mean great start to 1A for Trinity. Was at both Nure Trinity and UCD Tarf games.
Deserved wins for both away sides.
Thought Emmett McMahon beside James Ryan in second row for UCD was very impressive with Rob Keogh and Rob McGrath excellent for Tarf

Trinity took their time to get into the game on Friday night. The red card was key to the game and if they can do ok in the pack they will hurt teams with McDermott at 10

Stainalert

Yea sorry mean't Trinity not Terenure

Interesting about Emmet McMahon - very underrated player

See Mick McGrath was supposed to be on the bench for Clontarf

Tarf1234

Stainalert wrote: »

Yea sorry mean't Trinity not Terenure

Interesting about Emmet McMahon - very underrated player

See Mick McGrath was supposed to be on the bench for Clontarf

He was indeed, Only came back from Leicester on Wednesday so only subbed. He got the full 2nd half but didn't get the ball once.

UCD had a very strong team out, the pack in particular. If they can maintain that standard they will be difficult to beat for everyone.

Tarf1234

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Higher skill in some areas but playing AIL will harden you and teach you things 20s never will.
I have seen plenty of dual status work well. It allows high quality players play to their ability will also remaining with their home club.
There has always been players playing well below their abilities and a draft means players are not stockpiled which is better for competition.

Do the guys who are high quality not just end up playing 20s anyway? Save for UCD I don't think any 20s side is good enough to not pick a 'high quality' player.

What leagues would you spread the draft over? I'm not completely against the idea and agree that stockpiling is not good. What players would you have included in the draft?

ym

Was cheering on my beloved munsters v belvo while im gutted we lost it was a fantastic game , full of intensity and passion and skill, good crowd, fairly noisy and vociferous belvo support too which added to it.

Got great start try through our pack but then they got two tries one of which was a dan riordan intercept and they led 13-15 at ht, we got early 2nd half try from darren ryan to go 20-15 up they levelled at 20 all , then willie staunton (ex munsters) got two drops one of which was from his own half, we got another try from rob guerin to go 27-26 up they scored on 80 mins mark in corner – willie got conversion, then in injury we got penalty in own 22 ran it eventually made it to their 22, and gave away penalty linesman saw something so it was reversed and we got try from dan walsh (wing forward) with last play but missed conversion, but the try got us 2nd bonus point, our problem was is that we have con away and tarf at home next so could be lookin at 0-3 going into trinity game.

We had the nudge in scrums in first half but belvo had it sorted by second, riordan at full back (2 tries) and mcdonald (winger (2 tries) were very good for them, coulnt fault our lads for effort and intensity

ym

can anybody tell me how to get to trinitys pitch will be goin up to cheer on munsters in few weeks - but ive never been there - will probably go by train so any directions from tara st or pearse st stations would be much appreciated. I knwo the main entrance to the college but thats about it

ym

tarf 1234 how did mcgrath get on at leicester -super player alway scores for fun against us -his family hail from young munster territory as well

ym

also munsters had robin copeland playing at no 8

what size crowds were at matches at the weekend

The Lost Sheep

Tarf1234 wrote: »

Do the guys who are high quality not just end up playing 20s anyway? Save for UCD I don't think any 20s side is good enough to not pick a 'high quality' player.

What leagues would you spread the draft over? I'm not completely against the idea and agree that stockpiling is not good. What players would you have included in the draft?

Spread draft over top 4 divisions. Id include contracted, academy, international age grade, sub academy. Guys who are sub academy etc should be playing the highest grade possible in a season. If they move to a division 1 club there is likely to be more experienced guys and contracted players ahead especially now with 4 contracted players able to play AIL. Anyone aspiring to be a pro player should have no issues playing AIL Division2 at 18/19 straight out of youths/schools rugby. They can always play dual status with another club if that senior division 2 club doesn't field at 20s level and therefore be able to get as much rugby as possible.

Stainalert

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Spread draft over top 4 divisions. Id include contracted, academy, international age grade, sub academy. Guys who are sub academy etc should be playing the highest grade possible in a season. If they move to a division 1 club there is likely to be more experienced guys and contracted players ahead especially now with 4 contracted players able to play AIL. Anyone aspiring to be a pro player should have no issues playing AIL Division2 at 18/19 straight out of youths/schools rugby. They can always play dual status with another club if that senior division 2 club doesn't field at 20s level and therefore be able to get as much rugby as possible.

Going back to why the draft was proposed in the the first place i.e. to improve the quality of club rugby and in particular 1A & 1B and in so doing getting rid of the need for the B&I, spreading the draft over 4 divisions will not achieve that - if anything it would dilute the quality of the top divisions where most of these players are concentrated already.

Wrong thread, disregard.

The Lost Sheep

Stainalert wrote: »

Going back to why the draft was proposed in the the first place i.e. to improve the quality of club rugby and in particular 1A & 1B and in so doing getting rid of the need for the B&I, spreading the draft over 4 divisions will not achieve that - if anything it would dilute the quality of the top divisions where most of these players are concentrated already.

The B&I is needed for the provinces and they can try things that cant happen with the clubs. You know this. It wont go away as much as you want it to.
Id like to see a draft and it would help spread players to the other divisions and improve the quality of 1A as well as the lower down divisions if done correctly.

Stainalert

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

The B&I is needed for the provinces and they can try things that cant happen with the clubs. You know this. It wont go away as much as you want it to.
Id like to see a draft and it would help spread players to the other divisions and improve the quality of 1A as well as the lower down divisions if done correctly.

The draft concept that you are describing certainly won't improve the quality of 1A.

Don't believe in a draft system in general even if just confined to top divisions anyhow. The one thing that club rugby has over pro rugby is club loyalty and any draft system would damage that ethos. Not to mention that a draft system would fly in the face of the principles of the club sustainability report where they are actually trying to reduce player movement between the clubs and encourage club loyalty.

The Lost Sheep

Stainalert wrote: »

The draft concept that you are describing certainly won't improve the quality of 1A.

Don't believe in a draft system in general even if just confined to top divisions anyhow. The one thing that club rugby has over pro rugby is club loyalty and any draft system would damage that ethos. Not to mention that a draft system would fly in the face of the principles of the club sustainability report where they are actually trying to reduce player movement between the clubs and encourage club loyalty.

A draft system helps competition. Helps stop stockpiling. Club rugby doesn't at all have anything over professional rugby in terms of loyalty.

Tarf1234

ym wrote: »

tarf 1234 how did mcgrath get on at leicester -super player alway scores for fun against us -his family hail from young munster territory as well

He was there for just over 3 weeks . was supposed to be replacing someone but apparently that players came back way sooner then expected. He played for their A's at the start of the week. Haven't heard anything in great depth yet.

On the Trinity question best way is to get the train to Pearse Street station, turn left out the front door and follow the road around to the right. You can walk in the car park entrance and you won't be able to miss the pitch from there. Very handy to get to.

Stainalert

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

A draft system helps competition. Helps stop stockpiling. Club rugby doesn't at all have anything over professional rugby in terms of loyalty.

Great so you now agree we should get rid of the PPS?

The Lost Sheep

Stainalert wrote: »

Great so you now agree we should get rid of the PPS?

Player Points system can help it though and creating loyalty can be something that should be looked for. Club game is the community game and club rugby should be looking at GAA and look to club GAA and how there is very little movement of players by and large.
A draft system should and can only be in place for contracted and possibly international squad players at age grade. A draft system can work if controlled correctly and PPS rewards loyalty.

What in your opinion is your ideal set up in terms of league and how its ran etc? If all went your way?

Tarf1234

So you would essentially be telling players that they are not good enough to play 1A. In Dublin I can't think of many academy or sub academy guys not playing first team rugby excluding UCD. I'm not sure who is in the Sub academies in Ulster, Munster and Connacht so couldn't comment but would imagine they're all in the top clubs in their provinces and getting decent exposure. Going down to division 4 is madness. Top 2 division would suffice. Maybe Connacht and Ulster might have to consider Div 3 or 4 but in Munster and Leinster it would be entirely unnecessary.

The thought that diluting the quality will somehow improve it is a bit laughable.

Stainalert

http://www.irishrugby.ie/club/ulsterbankleagueandcup/38092.php#.V-EntvkrLGg

UCD surely haven't fielded a pack much bigger than the one they had last Saturday

Special mention for the hooker's optimism in chasing down McGrath for the intercept try!!

Tarf1234

Stainalert wrote: »

http://www.irishrugby.ie/club/ulsterbankleagueandcup/38092.php#.V-EntvkrLGg

UCD surely haven't fielded a pack much bigger than the one they had last Saturday

Special mention for the hooker's optimism in chasing down McGrath for the intercept try!!

Ye, they were huge, James Ryan has filled out even more. In saying that the Tarf pack was probably the bigger pack. The difference in the scrum when Mick Kearney went off was pretty significant.
I don't think Rob was ever in danger!!
Great to see IRFU doing some highlights videos again, I hope we see more of this.

Garry123

ym wrote: »

can anybody tell me how to get to trinitys pitch will be goin up to cheer on munsters in few weeks - but ive never been there - will probably go by train so any directions from tara st or pearse st stations would be much appreciated. I knwo the main entrance to the college but thats about it

LUAS to Middle Abbey St, walk across O'Connell Bridge and continue up to College Green. You can access the pitch through the college grounds or turn left on to Nassau St and walk down to entrance.

O'Neills on Suffolk St is good for a pint and some lunch, as is Porterhouse Central on Nassau St.

MrJones2013

Stainalert wrote: »

http://www.irishrugby.ie/club/ulsterbankleagueandcup/38092.php#.V-EntvkrLGg

UCD surely haven't fielded a pack much bigger than the one they had last Saturday

Special mention for the hooker's optimism in chasing down McGrath for the intercept try!!

Tarf1234 wrote: »

Ye, they were huge, James Ryan has filled out even more. In saying that the Tarf pack was probably the bigger pack. The difference in the scrum when Mick Kearney went off was pretty significant.
I don't think Rob was ever in danger!!
Great to see IRFU doing some highlights videos again, I hope we see more of this.

I was watching some of the NPC (Mitre 10 cup) a couple of weekends ago and a lot of the players were seriously slight, the New Zealanders do seem to be going the other way when it comes to bulking up players, I know there was talk of this before the World Cup last year. They were still hard as nails and skilfull obviously but looked very light.

Tarf1234

MrJones2013 wrote: »

Stainalert wrote: »

http://www.irishrugby.ie/club/ulsterbankleagueandcup/38092.php#.V-EntvkrLGg

UCD surely haven't fielded a pack much bigger than the one they had last Saturday

Special mention for the hooker's optimism in chasing down McGrath for the intercept try!!

Tarf1234 wrote: »

Ye, they were huge, James Ryan has filled out even more. In saying that the Tarf pack was probably the bigger pack. The difference in the scrum when Mick Kearney went off was pretty significant.
I don't think Rob was ever in danger!!
Great to see IRFU doing some highlights videos again, I hope we see more of this.

I was watching some of the NPC (Mitre 10 cup) a couple of weekends ago and a lot of the players were seriously slight, the New Zealanders do seem to be going the other way when it comes to bulking up players, I know there was talk of this before the World Cup last year. They were still hard as nails and skilfull obviously but looked very light.

That's true to a certain extent but they still have huge men playing as well. They just don't seem to be forcing the guys who can't carry it to put it on as much.

In reference to James Ryan he doesn't look overloaded or anything he's just very big!

MrJones2013

Tarf1234 wrote: »

That's true to a certain extent but they still have huge men playing as well. They just don't seem to be forcing the guys who can't carry it to put it on as much.

In reference to James Ryan he doesn't look overloaded or anything he's just very big!

Ah yeah they still have big ball carriers alright who are huge men, as you say it seems to be the half backs and some of the wingers, it was interesting to see as was the fact that they were well able to hold their own when the big hits were flying in.

Tarf1234

MrJones2013 wrote: »

Ah yeah they still have big ball carriers alright who are huge men, as you say it seems to be the half backs and some of the wingers, it was interesting to see as was the fact that they were well able to hold their own when the big hits were flying in.

It's good to see that over the last couple of years there are a few smaller guys coming through into the academies. Charlie Rock, Nick McCarthy, Joey Carberry and Jack Power are all relatively small so hopefully that's a sign of the future. We're not the biggest nation naturally so I can't see us going away from the process of trying to add bulk to every forward we ever produce. AIL packs in the last few years have gotten enormous.