Pedestrian Injured - Junction of Dame St/Sth Great George's Street

traprunner

MarkAnthony wrote: »

Simply set up speed traps and fine cyclists on the spot. If not the bike is seized.

There seems to be a bit of a cyclist centric attitude to these speed reductions. They're there to protect vulnerable pedestrians as much as cyclists. Why would we want one group of road users to be able to do more than the set limit?

Do you know how hard it is to get up to the speed limit on a bike? For the vast majority 30kph is not possible unless going down a hill. Dublin is practically flat. Also, how does a cyclist know what speed they are going?

MarkAnthony

traprunner wrote: »

Do you know how hard it is to get up to the speed limit on a bike?

So no problem then. Simply add a few words to the SI.

traprunner wrote: »

For the vast majority 30kph is not possible unless going down a hill. Dublin is practically flat.

See above

traprunner wrote: »

Also, how does a cyclist know what speed they are going?

As you've said it will be a particular cohort. They either need to judge their speed by reference to the traffic flow or fit a speedo. A GPS based speedo will be very accurate and easily removed.

traprunner

MarkAnthony wrote: »

So no problem then.



See above



As you've said it will be a particular cohort. They either need to judge their speed by reference to the traffic flow or fit a speedo. A GPS based speedo will be very accurate and easily removed.

So the traffic flow is always at or below the speed limit? As beauf posted earlier: http://www.independent.ie/life/motor...-26719803.html and
http://irishcycle.com/myths/myths-law-breaking/

The GPS systems for bicycles are not all that accurate when there are tall buildings or trees around. Nowhere near accurate enough for acting as a odometer in the city.

MarkAnthony

traprunner wrote: »

So the traffic flow is always at or below the speed limit? As beauf posted earlier: http://www.independent.ie/life/motor...-26719803.html and
http://irishcycle.com/myths/myths-law-breaking/

The GPS systems for bicycles are not all that accurate when there are tall buildings or trees around. Nowhere near enough for acting as a odometer in the city.

Looks like they'll have to use some good ol' mechanical method then. I've certainly never had an issue but I'll take your posts at their height.

A 90% failure rate to obey the limit is simply a reflection of our terrible ability to enforce anything. That doesn't mean the law shouldn't be there.

beauf

MarkAnthony wrote: »

...That doesn't mean the law shouldn't be there.

If the problem isn't a lack of laws. Then another law isn't going to solve anything.

There is already law to cover dangerous cycling.

PeadarCo

MarkAnthony wrote:

Looks like they'll have to use some good ol' mechanical method then. I've certainly never had an issue but I'll take your posts at their height.

To make speed limits mandatory for cyclists you'd have to make it mandatory for all bikes to have speedometers fitted. You can't charge someone for breaking the law if they have no way of knowing that they're breaking the law.

Do you have any evidence that cyclists doing above 30km/hr in the relevant zones are such a danger to warrant such a measure?

If anyone wants to know why guards can't be bothered implementing most laws relating to cyclists just look at the statistics that relate to the number of accidents they cause.

Strumms

lets not have this as drivers vs cyclists vs pedestrians etc....

Dame St / Georges St junction in particular was and is an accident waiting to happen. I have had a few close shaves with cyclists of both genders some professional delivery people, some people coming from work or college who just don't care about the lights or the welfare of the people crossing so its not one 'type' of cyclist that is the issue. The odd time I have had said close call I usually say something, not always pleasant and usually get a quizzical look like I just landed from Mars.

I think it is a big enough issue that there should be if there hasn't been already some sort of awareness campaign through the media. Not trying to blame the Gardai but also some enforcement and fines delivered the way of dangerous cyclists. Go onto the Garda checkpoint facebook page and you will see in fairness to them lots of resources this and any day around Dublin alone mounting checkpoints for drink drive and tax and insurance for cars and only right too. However I can't ever recall seeing a Guard stop a cyclist ever in the city. Having a couple of guys at that junction every once in a while and elsewhere would not only be a deterrent but so would also them pulling people and advising them and fining them when necessary as a result of this behaviour...

As this unfortunate example sets out and the one in the Phoenix Park too regardless who is at fault a bike and a human coming into contact can have serious consequences and some people in this city a decent percentage in my view who use bikes need to cop on and obey the rules of the road...

Hope the woman in question will be ok..

Spanish Eyes

Just another thought, is there an equivalent Drink Cycling law, just like cars and motorbikes?

I think that could be an issue sometimes. I said sometimes.

traprunner

Strumms wrote: »

As this unfortunate example sets out and the one in the Phoenix Park too regardless who is at fault a bike and a human coming into contact can have serious consequences and some people in this city a decent percentage in my view who use bikes need to cop on and obey the rules of the road...

So you say that you are not going to lay blame yet you blame the cyclists? The guy in the Phoenix Park was a cyclist.

Cookie_Monster

MarkAnthony wrote: »

Simply set up speed traps and fine cyclists on the spot. If not the bike is seized.

There seems to be a bit of a cyclist centric attitude to these speed reductions. They're there to protect vulnerable pedestrians as much as cyclists. Why would we want one group of road users to be able to do more than the set limit?

you cant because cyclists can't measure their own speed like you can in a car with a speedometer.

McAlban

This argument is always the same, on the Journal, Facebook, twitter etc.

If a motorist hits a pedestrian at a red light they will be up in court, if they hit a pedestrian at a green light the same. I would have no sympathy for a pedestrian who walks out in front of a cyclist at a green light, they are equally at fault for not observing and anticipating the oncoming cyclist. But like the OP I have seen careful pedestrians mowed down by cyclists in Dublin City centre too often. Once at the pedestrian crossing at Connolly Luas stop I had a cyclist jam on and absolutely abuse me for stepping onto the pedestrian crossing when the light was green for me.

There is in Dublin a hardcore cohort of "commuter" cyclist who thinks their daily journey is a stage in the Tour de France and absolutely cycle as fast as possible as some posters have pointed out above. There is a lot of them and they give all cyclists a bad name, weaving in and out of traffic, breaking red lights (even when there is a specific set of bicycle lights provided), and as I have witnessed many times, abusing other casual cyclists for not progressing in the cycle lane and then weaving into traffic out of the lane to overtake. It is for these cyclists that the legislation and the rules of the road need to be updated. The fixed penalties introduced earlier should only be the start.

At least 3 times a week I drive from the north side to Terenure, every time at the junction of King St N and Upper Church St. I see countless cyclists break the red lights to get over to Smithfield. Placing a Traffic Corps Garda here for an hour each evening would be a start at enforcing the law. (this is 200m from a Garda Station).

Another point is at Harolds Cross were cyclists constantly leave the Cycle Lane and cross the Driving lane to go towards Mount Jerome. I am always wary at this junction as most cyclists do not look nevermind signal before doing this manoeuvre. Once or twice I've even been shouted at for "cutting off" a cyclist who did not see me until they were almost lying on my bonnet.

This of course will anger those of you who consider themselves cyclists, I know not all are the same, but whenever an incident like this happens the cyclist lobby take to the internet and cast aspersions on the pedestrian or motorist involved in the incident, even if that person is seriously injured. Leading to others dragging up the millions of anecdotes about cyclists being useless ars*holes on the road.

It is up to ALL road users to be safe, vigilant and obey the rules of the Road, take the recent death in the Phoenix Park, a Cyclist hit a pedestrian on a cycle track, tragic for the cyclist involved and probably very distressing for the pedestrian, but as someone who commutes by car and runs and cycles for fitness I wonder how the cyclist did not have time to react to the pedestrian.

Like today as the OP said, the cyclist was going too fast to react and ignored the red light causing serious injury to someone else. It's time for all Road users to obey the Rules, and be sensible and aware of the other users.

magicbastarder

MarkAnthony wrote: »

Simply set up speed traps and fine cyclists on the spot. If not the bike is seized.

speeding motorists - who would create a far greater danger than speeding cyclists - do not have their vehicles impounded. you have a solution in search of a problem.

magicbastarder

McAlban wrote: »

It is for these cyclists that the legislation and the rules of the road need to be updated.

you mean it needs to be enforced.
you can update legislation till the cows come home. but it means SFA unless it is enforced.

McAlban

magicbastarder wrote: »

you mean it needs to be enforced.
you can update legislation till the cows come home. but it means SFA unless it is enforced.

True, but cyclists don't even have to wear a helmet, or high vis armband/vest etc. under the current laws. Also see a lot without any lights or reflective material on the bike.

The laws need to be strengthened and enforced for everybodys safety especially cyclists.

magicbastarder

McAlban wrote: »

This of course will anger those of you who consider themselves cyclists, I know not all are the same, but whenever an incident like this happens the cyclist lobby take to the internet and cast aspersions on the pedestrian or motorist involved in the incident, even if that person is seriously injured. Leading to others dragging up the millions of anecdotes about cyclists being useless ars*holes on the road.

you'll find the cyclist lobby will gladly call someone who changes lane without looking an idiot. the cycling lobby fights for improved infrastructure, etc., and does not try to justify idiot cycling manouevres.

magicbastarder

McAlban wrote: »

True, but cyclists don't even have to wear a helmet, or high vis armband/vest etc. under the current laws. Also see a lot without any lights or reflective material on the bike.

The laws need to be strengthened and enforced for everybodys safety especially cyclists.

there is conflicting evidence that helmet laws actually increase cyclist safety.
and it's not going to happen in ireland as it would kill the dublin bike scheme stone dead. paschal donohue announced a few months ago that there are no plans to introduce a mandatory helmet law.

cyclists get tired of people claiming that the most important thing for their own safety are helmets and hi-vis. badly designed - and dangerous - cycling infrastructure is a much bigger issue.

McAlban

magicbastarder wrote: »

you'll find the cyclist lobby will gladly call someone who changes lane without looking an idiot. the cycling lobby fights for improved infrastructure, etc., and does not try to justify idiot cycling manouevres.

Well take a drive out by Dublin Airport at Rush Hour, On the R132 between Collinstown Cross and the Coachmans is a brand new road. At both sides is a 6m Wide shared Cycle and Foot path, there are very few pedestrians on it and it is brand new tarmac surface.

Cyclists will use the bus lane/road and break the red lights at Alsaa, Kealys, the Airport Roundabout and the Coachmans Roundabout, to avoid having to wait for the green lights on their cycle lane, even though they are supposed to use it when provided. Infrastructure isn't the problem, although seriously lacking, a lot of the issues boil down to personal responsibility.

traprunner

McAlban wrote: »

True, but cyclists don't even have to wear a helmet, or high vis armband/vest etc. under the current laws. Also see a lot without any lights or reflective material on the bike.

The laws need to be strengthened and enforced for everybodys safety especially cyclists.

Are you a blind driver that you can't see? Shouldn't all cars be hi via too seeing that so many of them are in accidents on a daily basis.

It's also more difficult to see hivis at certain light levels.

McAlban

traprunner wrote: »

Are you a blind driver that you can't see? Shouldn't all cars be hi via too seeing that so many of them are in accidents on a daily basis.

Yeah, I have removed the reflectors from my rear lights and regularly take to the road at night in my car with the lights off. Sure there's street lights, I can see, it's Grand.

traprunner

McAlban wrote: »

Well take a drive out by Dublin Airport at Rush Hour, On the R132 between Collinstown Cross and the Coachmans is a brand new road. At both sides is a 6m Wide shared Cycle and Foot path, there are very few pedestrians on it and it is brand new tarmac surface.

Cyclists will use the bus lane/road and break the red lights at Alsaa, Kealys, the Airport Roundabout and the Coachmans Roundabout, to avoid having to wait for the green lights on their cycle lane, even though they are supposed to use it when provided. Infrastructure isn't the problem, although seriously lacking, a lot of the issues boil down to personal responsibility.

Cyclists do not have to use cycle lanes provided. They can use traffic lanes too. Have you cycled those tracks that you are on about to be able to comment on quality? Maybe they just cross the White line a bit like cars do?

I also doubt cyclists breaking lights at the airport roundabout. It'd be certain death given how busy and fast moving it is.

traprunner

McAlban wrote: »

Yeah, I have removed the reflectors from my rear lights and regularly take to the road at night in my car with the lights off. Sure there's street lights, I can see, it's Grand.

Not being lit up in the dark is the idiotic cyclists that an earlier poster was on about. Just like cars that don't bother with having lights on or bulbs blown or even having dodgy wiper blades. There are idiots using all modes of transport.

howiya

Without getting into the cyclist v motorist v pedestrian argument I passed the scene this morning and at the next junction there were two Gardai standing at College Green standing having a chat while waiting to direct private motorists.

Surely the enforcement of the bus corridor could be done by camera similar to the M50 toll while Gardai could be influencing change in people's behaviour at dangerous junctions like Georges Street/Dame Street by being present here.

McAlban

traprunner wrote: »

Cyclists do not have to use cycle lanes provided. They can use traffic lanes too.

Yes, according to the rules of the Road cyclists Must use cycle tracks provided.

Have you cycled those tracks that you are on about to be able to comment on quality?

Yes, when I've no Car. It's a 23k Cycle so not that often but they are good, grade separated from the road, and a huge relief after riding the gauntlet of the R108. Even if there are Cycle track lights. that delay me for 30 seconds.

I also doubt cyclists breaking lights at the airport roundabout. It'd be certain death given how busy and fast moving it is.

Yet they still do it. Every Day. Been driving / Cycling that road for 10 years.

prinzeugen

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Just another thought, is there an equivalent Drink Cycling law, just like cars and motorbikes?

I think that could be an issue sometimes. I said sometimes.

Yes but don't ask me which! Read it years ago. Its in the Road Traffic Act and at the start it defines a "bicycle" as a vehicle for the purposes of that section of the Act.

Or words to that effect.

I will look at statute.ie in the morning..

traprunner

howiya wrote: »

Without getting into the cyclist v motorist v pedestrian argument I passed the scene this morning and at the next junction there were two Gardai standing at College Green standing having a chat while waiting to direct private motorists.

Surely the enforcement of the bus corridor could be done by camera similar to the M50 toll while Gardai could be influencing change in people's behaviour at dangerous junctions like Georges Street/Dame Street by being present here.

It does seem crazy to have resources wasted where cameras could do the job effectively. I think it was mentioned in the Luas cross city thread that the Luas upgrades were paying for the guards. Dublin is slow at implementing the cameras that foreign cities take for granted. Sure they could even be checking for tax and insurance and save on checkpoints.

traprunner

McAlban wrote: »

Yes, according to the rules of the Road cyclists Must use cycle tracks provided.



Yes, when I've no Car. It's a 23k Cycle so not that often but they are good, grade separated from the road, and a huge relief after riding the gauntlet of the R108. Even if there are Cycle track lights. that delay me for 30 seconds.



Yet they still do it. Every Day. Been driving / Cycling that road for 10 years.

The rules of the road are not law. I think it was 2011 that the requirement to use cycle tracks was removed from law.

I haven't used that cycle track you mentioned or even cycled out that way so I was curious to the quality seeing that they vary greatly around the city.

Spanish Eyes

I'm not sure, but I don't think cyclists are obliged under the law to use specially designated cycle lanes/ways.

Why I dunno.

Maybe they don't meet the cyclists' criteria or something.

5 4 3 2 1 .... and we are off!

McAlban

Ah yes, S.I. No. 332/2012 I've seen it cited before saying that "shall" means you don't have to. The Current (2015) rules of the road say must, indicating that it's a legal requirement.

You can see it clearly here...

languagenerd

Strumms wrote: »

lets not have this as drivers vs cyclists vs pedestrians etc....

Dame St / Georges St junction in particular was and is an accident waiting to happen. I have had a few close shaves with cyclists of both genders some professional delivery people, some people coming from work or college who just don't care about the lights or the welfare of the people crossing so its not one 'type' of cyclist that is the issue. The odd time I have had said close call I usually say something, not always pleasant and usually get a quizzical look like I just landed from Mars.

That junction is horrific for cyclists breaking lights. It's such a busy junction for pedestrians, so there's always a large crowd of people walking across and some cyclists just plough on through them regardless. I have of course seen other cyclists stop and wait, but there are two or three that go sailing through at high speeds literally every time the pedestrians get the lights. The guards would make a fortune in fines if they stood on George's St for an hour or two. I've nearly been knocked down twice at that junction by cyclists from a certain delivery company recently...

That said, I have seen a lot of pedestrians just walking out into the traffic there too because they're too impatient to wait for the lights.

bigar

I commute by motorbike from Malahide every day following Malahide Road and then Fairview/Amiens Street up to Custom House. I can easily filter through at each traffic light so I am in front. This gives me a nice view of who is running the red light and it are always cars, buses, trucks (in short everything with 4 wheels or more). Bicycles of which there are plenty rarely go through red. It is actually scary how many cars actually go through red and I am surprised I only witnessed two accidents in the last 2 years as I have seen many close calls. None involved Cyclist or Pedestrians by the way.

I am all for rigorously clamping down on running red lights but if it happens many will be surprised that the majority caught will be cars and not cyclists.