M50 - Eastern Bypass

Idbatterim

look it wouldnt be my top priority, but adding capacity to exisiting m50 doesnt isnt really feasible for the upset it would now cause, they certainly could have done it at the time, but of course they adopted the , do the least possible option...

A full ring road makes sense, dublin is going to have over 2,000,000 in the not too distant future!

build dublin metro and you hoover large amounts of traffic off the M50! it would have taken more off if it didnt stop in bloody charlemont, but went out to sandyford as planned! :rolleyes:

the greens if they want to do something for the environment, should pull the plug on government, if construction doesnt start on dublin metro, with the current time frames as planned. Using dart underground as a gun to the head, is possibly asking a bit much here, but I think they should get the ball rolling on that again now. CIE are sitting on land worth a lot, in heuston station etc, it should be exploited to part fund DU...

"One of the larger plots was an 11-hectare site on East Wall Road, close to the port tunnel and the docklands, which could have accommodated hundreds of apartments." what would the plan be for there 5-6 floor apartments? if they are going to waste the land, like they currently do, better letting it sit there, until they get real about densities!

Idbatterim

loyatemu wrote: »

it hasn't gone away:
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/housing-plan-in-dublin-halted-to-facilitate-eastern-bypass-1.4189623

Personally I think as time goes by this is less and less likely to ever be built due to the astronomical cost, environmental considerations and the prioritisation of the public transport (in Dublin at least). The section from the north port to the south port might happen, though this could be achieved easier and cheaper with a bridge if you weren't concerned with the longer term aim of completing the ring.

something needs to be done about the eastlink and the capacity there crossing north to south , maybe a new bridge and use the existing one as a northbound public transport and cycling etc. the east link toll should be scrapped, just sends more traffic down macken street bridge, which is a joke!

loyatemu

Idbatterim wrote: »

look it wouldnt be my top priority, but adding capacity to exisiting m50 doesnt isnt really feasible for the upset it would now cause, they certainly could have done it at the time, but of course they adopted the , do the least possible option...

when is it ever going to be a sufficient priority to get built though. If we had a few billion to spend on transport on Dublin, literally every other proposal is a better idea - DU, Metro South, FingLuas, any rail-based project you can dream up.

A massively expensive motorway connecting the southside with the city-centre is a hard sell in the era of climate action, that's before you consider the impact on Dublin Bay (depending on the design).

cgcsb

I think it makes sense for the South docks to be connected to the motorway network but creating a full ring road is heavy handed and there's no need for it.

Idbatterim

if you built the eastern bypass, you would funnel huge amounts of current m50 traffic, off the existing bit and get it from say sandyford to airport or thereabouts in less than half the distance. You can also get lots of buses using it, would need to be 3 lanes though ideally and while a bridge may work to cross the liffey, it would have to be tunnel from there....

Idbatterim

cgcsb wrote: »

I think it makes sense for the South docks to be connected to the motorway network but creating a full ring road is heavy handed and there's no need for it.

how is there no need for it? could you imagien telling cities with full rings, to close off a section?

Idbatterim

cgcsb wrote: »

I think it makes sense for the South docks to be connected to the motorway network but creating a full ring road is heavy handed and there's no need for it.

the east link has to be finished as a toll bridge. Its a joke and they do need to up the road capacity in the area and put in proper cycling and pedestrian facilities.

cgcsb

Idbatterim wrote: »

how is there no need for it? could you imagien telling cities with full rings, to close off a section?

Lots of cities have reduced road capacity in recent years. Building a new road like this only attracts more users.

We could build a public transport only bridge from liffey valley to Blanchardstown and greatly reduce M50 traffic but that will reduce toll revenue so not possible with current level of corruption.

Idbatterim

cgcsb wrote: »

Lots of cities have reduced road capacity in recent years. Building a new road like this only attracts more users.

We could build a public transport only bridge from liffey valley to Blanchardstown and greatly reduce M50 traffic but that will reduce toll revenue so not possible with current level of corruption.

Initially I thought this thread was about the outer bypass that has been proposed. the biggest bit of lunacy you could ever dream up! good idea about the LV to blanch PTB, but its the likes of this, that the greens should insist on as part of a programme for government. how exactly would that reduce traffic a lot?

Its kind of like ireland and climate change. Dublin is the china when it comes to scale here, its far easier making changes here that shift large amounts of people, than in rural areas.

cgcsb

If you want to make a north south journey anywhere in west Dublin, I.e. west of Palmerston, you basically have to get in a car and cross the westlink. If it were possible to walk cycle or take a bus between, say clondalkin and blanch in reasonable time more people would do it rather than sit on the M50 for long periods of time and pay tolls for the privilege

Idbatterim

cgcsb wrote: »

If you want to make a north south journey anywhere in west Dublin, I.e. west of Palmerston, you basically have to get in a car and cross the westlink. If it were possible to walk cycle or take a bus between, say clondalkin and blanch in reasonable time more people would do it rather than sit on the M50 for long periods of time and pay tolls for the privilege

say clondalking to blanch. if its for shopping, which would be the prime trip generator, are most of them not just going to liffey valley?

Idbatterim

denlapim wrote: »

I would be in favour of the M50 bypass getting built. It should go from the current J14 under a tunnel to the strand and then a bridge.

Sydney has a full motorway ring road and that’s a coastal city like Dublin.

not long back from sydney and melbourne, the amount of trams in melbourne was mental. What is mad about dublin, is that a city of 1,500,000 funnels nearly everything down either the quays or dame st and OCB/S. Its absolutely mental, life grafton street too. there is so much traffic, funnelled down so few streets

Carawaystick

Idbatterim wrote: »

say clondalking to blanch. if its for shopping, which would be the prime trip generator, are most of them not just going to liffey valley?

Not once you count all the employment in Blanch, Ballycoolin, out as far as facebook in Clonee; people going to work 5 days a week...

SeanW

I think that having a proper circle bypass would be very helpful, thus the Eastern bypass sounds good in theory.

But it's not priority 1. I don't think it should be seriously considered until both Metro Northern and Dart Underground (at minimum) are under construction.

cgcsb

Idbatterim wrote: »

say clondalking to blanch. if its for shopping, which would be the prime trip generator, are most of them not just going to liffey valley?

Shopping isn't the main trip generator. Nobody is shopping between 7 and 9am when m50 traffic is heaviest

loyatemu

SeanW wrote: »

I think that having a proper circle bypass would be very helpful, thus the Eastern bypass sounds good in theory.

It doesn't even sound good in theory, it would definitely generate more traffic. It's a classic 20th century solution.

Pete_Cavan

The Eastern Bypass would primarily be used for people driving from the M1 or N/M11 corridors into the centre of the city. That is the last thing we should be facilitating, the road capacity doesn't exist for the combined volume of cars that the DPT and Eastern Bypass would dump in the Docklands area and would cause such congestion that the M50 would be preferable for journeys to anywhere but the city centre.

From any point west/south of the M1, or west/north of Sandyford, (i.e. the majority of the city), to any other location, the M50 or other roads are more convenient than driving via the Port. The Port itself is looking to develop a bridge to allow the south docks to easier access the DPT and wider roads network. Increased public transport is a far better use of funds for commuter traffic.

AAAAAAAAA

I honestly don't think there is any better use for the corridor from Booterstown to Sandyford/Dundrum than using it to begin the inevitable railway ring line. This section alone would properly link the DART Corridor to UCD and the Green Line somewhere around Dundrum.

Idbatterim

AAAAAAAAA wrote: »

I honestly don't think there is any better use for the corridor from Booterstown to Sandyford/Dundrum than using it to begin the inevitable railway ring line. This section alone would properly link the DART Corridor to UCD and the Green Line somewhere around Dundrum.

so basically you would be extending Dart to Dundrum to connect with luas? imagine then building dart west instead of metro west...

AAAAAAAAA

Idbatterim wrote: »

so basically you would be extending Dart to Dundrum to connect with luas? imagine then building dart west instead of metro west...

No, the suggestion is for a line that interchanges at Booterstown, not a DART Spur. Whether it's built as an Irish-Gauge DART line or a Standard-Gauge Metro is somewhat arbitrary.

Considering Metro West is proposed to end it's overly circuitous route at Tallaght, perhaps there's scope to continue in though Knocklyon and under Dundrum, then take the reserved Eastern Bypass Corridor to interconnect with the DART.

Idbatterim

AAAAAAAAA wrote: »

No, the suggestion is for a line that interchanges at Booterstown, not a DART Spur. Whether it's built as an Irish-Gauge DART line or a Standard-Gauge Metro is somewhat arbitrary.

Considering Metro West is proposed to end it's overly circuitous route at Tallaght, perhaps there's scope to continue in though Knocklyon and under Dundrum, then take the reserved Eastern Bypass Corridor to interconnect with the DART.

it doesnt actually make sense really to build anything other than driverless metro. Even if that does involve a change of mode. Its probably not a big issue, when darts are running at a ten minute frequency...

SeanW

loyatemu wrote: »

It doesn't even sound good in theory, it would definitely generate more traffic. It's a classic 20th century solution.

Except that's not true - if you look at the Port Tunnel.

The Port Tunnel is theoretically open to all traffic but it's only toll free for buses and trucks. Private travelers can use it off-peak for €3 but anyone who wants to use it in a private vehicle at peak times has to pay €12.

Currently, if someone has a load of goods on the South Docks that they need to bring to Wicklow, they have to cross the Liffey twice and go many miles out of their way with the current system. That benefits nobody except the toll operators.

The Eastern Bypass could be the mistake you claim if it were:

1. Built before Dart U. and a Metro system.
2. Open/inviting to commuters.

But as part of a coherent transport strategy (like DCCs year 2000 A Platform for Change plan) it could just make life easier for everyone.

loyatemu

SeanW wrote: »

Except that's not true - if you look at the Port Tunnel.

The Port Tunnel is theoretically open to all traffic but it's only toll free for buses and trucks. Private travelers can use it off-peak for €3 but anyone who wants to use it in a private vehicle at peak times has to pay €12.

Currently, if someone has a load of goods on the South Docks that they need to bring to Wicklow, they have to cross the Liffey twice and go many miles out of their way with the current system. That benefits nobody except the toll operators.

The Eastern Bypass could be the mistake you claim if it were:

1. Built before Dart U. and a Metro system.
2. Open/inviting to commuters.

But as part of a coherent transport strategy (like DCCs year 2000 A Platform for Change plan) it could just make life easier for everyone.

you want to build the Eastern Bypass just to bring goods to Wicklow and Wexford?

TBH I rarely use the port tunnel, but I've heard it's getting increasingly used by commuters (which probably indicates they need to increase the peak-time toll which I think hasn't happened since it opened).

SeanW

1) I don't think it's top priority. DU and Metro should be done before it's seriously looked at.
2) Must be a lot of rich people that can afford to spent €24 per day on tolls ...

mfceiling

SeanW wrote: »

1) I don't think it's top priority. DU and Metro should be done before it's seriously looked at.
2) Must be a lot of rich people that can afford to spent €24 per day on tolls ...

It's a tenner a journey at peak time.

Idbatterim

there was talk about wicklow , wexford. what about the huge amount of deliveries that would be made to dundrum town centre, sandyford and leopardstown business park, carrickmines etc. as has been mentioned, these trucks are being sent on a triple the distance minimum detour that they would be, if the eastern bypass was in place... Could they build road and rail side by side? cost would be pretty astronomical I assume. The access between southside and nothside needs addressing urgently though, for all modes, its an absolute disgrace!

Idbatterim

mfceiling wrote: »

It's a tenner a journey at peak time.

yeah to manage demand, used to be twelve. I have used it at E3, well worth it. the issue is, you fly to the tunnel, its getting to the tunnel over the bloody east link, that takes longer than the journey in the tunnel :rolleyes:

I had an english ex, and she could believe how a city the scale of dublin, had village like infrastructure serving much of it

Pete_Cavan

Idbatterim wrote: »

there was talk about wicklow , wexford. what about the huge amount of deliveries that would be made to dundrum town centre, sandyford and leopardstown business park, carrickmines etc. as has been mentioned, these trucks are being sent on a triple the distance minimum detour that they would be, if the eastern bypass was in place... Could they build road and rail side by side? cost would be pretty astronomical I assume. The access between southside and nothside needs addressing urgently though, for all modes, its an absolute disgrace!

Very few goods would be delivered directly from the port. Standard would be for the port to receive bulk deliveries which are brought to a distribution centre and split into smaller loads for delivery to where it needs to be. In the scheme of things, a spin round the M50 is nothing in the journey most goods are making. Trying to justify the Eastern Bypass on that basis is really clutching at straws.

Idbatterim

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

Very few goods would be delivered directly from the port. Standard would be for the port to receive bulk deliveries which are brought to a distribution centre and split into smaller loads for delivery to where it needs to be. In the scheme of things, a spin round the M50 is nothing in the journey most goods are making. Trying to justify the Eastern Bypass on that basis is really clutching at straws.

Yes good and obvious point !

SeanW

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

Very few goods would be delivered directly from the port. Standard would be for the port to receive bulk deliveries which are brought to a distribution centre and split into smaller loads for delivery to where it needs to be. In the scheme of things, a spin round the M50 is nothing in the journey most goods are making. Trying to justify the Eastern Bypass on that basis is really clutching at straws.

Because there are no distribution centres in the South-East, and no industry in the South-East at all that exports anything

That really makes sense. :rolleyes: Who benefits from sending thousands of trucks all around the city in the current C-Ring?

Furthermore, I fundamentally reject the idea that an Eastern bypass will just clog up streets in Dublin with new traffic. The Port Tunnel got lots of traffic (mostly trucks) off the streets. No reason the Eastern bypass could not be planned along similar lines - a free expressway for trucks and buses at all times, with limited or no tolls for people using private vehicles in the off-peak.