Black Cards Again !

Dyr

bruschi wrote: »

Does anyone think that the rules of the black card stop cynical fouling? The main talking point about this black card was Sean Cavanaghs pull down against Monaghan. If faced with the same situation again, would a player do anything differently? What is their punishment for stopping another team scoring a goal?

Black card was more to deal with certain teams that were systematically pulling opposition players down to kill momentum so they can get their runners back into defence

It's worked very well in that regard

danganabu

Bambi wrote: »

Black card was more to deal with certain teams that were systematically pulling opposition players down to kill momentum so they can get their runners back into defence

It's worked very well in that regard

Can't say I have noticed any change to be honest!

Which teams fwiw?

Fr Tod Umptious

vetinari wrote: »

The black card has proven to be a terrible idea.
The GAA was too childish to borrow an idea that works from a "foreign" sport.
A yellow card resulting in 10 minute sin bin would do far more to stop professional fouling.
The black card as someone says only helps stronger counties.
Tipp's defensive organization took a big hit against Mayo because they have less strength in depth.

So on the Ulster final Tyrone should have been down to 13 for a period in the first half because two playets committed fouls that warranted to sin bin in your system.

Xenophile

What is currently deemed as a Black Card offence should be a Red Card if the foul is committed with fifteen minutes or less left on the clock !

danganabu

Xenophile wrote: »

What is currently deemed as a Black Card offence should be a Red Card if the foul is committed with fifteen minutes or less left on the clock !

So you want to change the rules in the middle of a game, bizzare!

SeaFields

I've heard the concept of an extra score for a free scored from a black card foul being muted. I think that is an idea worth exploring because in the dying minutes teams are willing to accept the black cards to protect a lead.

Water John

Bambi, correct it is usually the forwards who are under instruction to delay a counter attack after a turnover. It cut down on that.
Some players had it down to a fine art. Not totally dragging fellas to the ground but body checking all the time.

What is wrong with rule changes in the middle of a game?

StupidLikeAFox

As an aside, is there any other sport in the world who's rules are up for discussion as much as GAAs? Every year there is some sort of tinkering going on, some other rule suggestions, new structures, mark/no mark, sin bin etc. Every high profile match seems to wind up with more suggestions for rule changes. Seems to be an automatic reaction that the rules arent working, lets change them some more - never seems to pop up in other sports, that I can see anyway

danganabu

StupidLikeAFox wrote: »

As an aside, is there any other sport in the world who's rules are up for discussion as much as GAAs? Every year there is some sort of tinkering going on, some other rule suggestions, new structures, mark/no mark, sin bin etc. Every high profile match seems to wind up with more suggestions for rule changes. Seems to be an automatic reaction that the rules arent working, lets change them some more - never seems to pop up in other sports, that I can see anyway

Happens far more in Rugby I would have thought.

BonnieSituation

SeaFields wrote: »

I've heard the concept of an extra score for a free scored from a black card foul being muted. I think that is an idea worth exploring because in the dying minutes teams are willing to accept the black cards to protect a lead.

Merit in the idea. But it still keeps the black card which isn't really working.

There's a good few things that need changing though before that.

Xenophile

danganabu wrote: »

So you want to change the rules in the middle of a game, bizzare!

Change the rules before the game !

I am also aware that the three panellists on the Sunday Game last night were all in favour of scrapping the Black Card.

One way or another cynical fouling, especially in the last few minutes of a tight game will have to punished more severely.

Fr Tod Umptious

Xenophile wrote: »

What is currently deemed as a Black Card offence should be a Red Card if the foul is committed with fifteen minutes or less left on the clock !

You see that is all well and good until someone commits the foul at 54.59 and then there is all sorts of up roar about how cynical they are to do it out sode the 15 mins.

I'd keep the black card, but add a 13m free for every black card.

That would make them think twice about the pull downs late in the game when a team are just holding out and willing to take the black card.

bruschi

Bambi wrote: »

Black card was more to deal with certain teams that were systematically pulling opposition players down to kill momentum so they can get their runners back into defence

It's worked very well in that regard

what? it clearly hasnt if you see the example from yesterdays game. There were other examples of it too throughout the game where a player was breaking forward, and although may not have been pulled to the ground, but was intentionally fouled and then tried delay the quick free. It still happens and still happens a lot.

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

You see that is all well and good until someone commits the foul at 54.59 and then there is all sorts of up roar about how cynical they are to do it out sode the 15 mins.

I'd keep the black card, but add a 13m free for every black card.

That would make them think twice about the pull downs late in the game when a team are just holding out and willing to take the black card.

thats probably about where I am too. But even at that, take yesterdays example. They needed a goal, the point was little good to them. Refs rarely take the additional time wasted into account too.

I just think the whole thing is pretty much a failure. You have a black card offence for 5 types of foul. Its more or less only used on 1 (the pull down), sometimes on the body check and occasionally on the trip. I've rarely seen it used for abusive language to an opponent nor remonstrate in an aggressive manner to an official.

PARlance

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

You see that is all well and good until someone commits the foul at 54.59 and then there is all sorts of up roar about how cynical they are to do it out sode the 15 mins.

I'd keep the black card, but add a 13m free for every black card.

That would make them think twice about the pull downs late in the game when a team are just holding out and willing to take the black card.

13m free or Sin Bin works for me but I think I would favour the 13m free.
Something has to change, the black card has actually ended up promoting the thing it was brought in to stop.

threeball

PARlance wrote: »

13m free or Sin Bin works for me but I think I would favour the 13m free.
Something has to change, the black card has actually ended up promoting the thing it was brought in to stop.

I'd like to see both. I'd also like to see the lines if the D extended to the end line and if there's a clear pull down in a goal chance situation inside this then a penalty should be awarded.
Far too much of this rubbish in games and its always the same heads popping up committing the majority of offences in any given game.

blackwhite

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

You see that is all well and good until someone commits the foul at 54.59 and then there is all sorts of up roar about how cynical they are to do it out sode the 15 mins.

I'd keep the black card, but add a 13m free for every black card.

That would make them think twice about the pull downs late in the game when a team are just holding out and willing to take the black card.

I'd make it more harsh - black card offence replaced by 13m free AND if a point is scored directly from the free then the team being fouled gets the ball back on halfway to restart.
Punishes by giving a score, and by allowing the team to have another opportunity to attack if a goal is what's needed.

flasher0030

blackwhite wrote: »

I'd make it more harsh - black card offence replaced by 13m free AND if a point is scored directly from the free then the team being fouled gets the ball back on halfway to restart.
Punishes by giving a score, and by allowing the team to have another opportunity to attack if a goal is what's needed.

That’s all fine in the ideal world where the ref gets every call right, and teams are rightly punished for cynical play. But what if a ref gets a crucial call wrong. What if there is an accidental trip on an opponent in the last few minutes of a game, and there’s only 1 point separating the teams. Ref calls it as a black card offence. Team draws level with the free and then they start off possession again, with the chance of snatching a win. All because of a wrong referring decision.

When laying out the severity of the punishment, consideration should be given that refs will sometimes/often make wrong calls.

threeball

flasher0030 wrote: »

That’s all fine in the ideal world where the ref gets every call right, and teams are rightly punished for cynical play. But what if a ref gets a crucial call wrong. What if there is an accidental trip on an opponent in the last few minutes of a game, and there’s only 1 point separating the teams. Ref calls it as a black card offence. Team draws level with the free and then they start off possession again, with the chance of snatching a win. All because of a wrong referring decision.

When laying out the severity of the punishment, consideration should be given that refs will sometimes/often make wrong calls.

The definition of the black card needs to be narrowed also. It encompasses too many things. Should relate to blatant body checking and drag downs only. All the other stuff can be dealt with through red and yellow.

blackwhite

flasher0030 wrote: »

That’s all fine in the ideal world where the ref gets every call right, and teams are rightly punished for cynical play. But what if a ref gets a crucial call wrong. What if there is an accidental trip on an opponent in the last few minutes of a game, and there’s only 1 point separating the teams. Ref calls it as a black card offence. Team draws level with the free and then they start off possession again, with the chance of snatching a win. All because of a wrong referring decision.

When laying out the severity of the punishment, consideration should be given that refs will sometimes/often make wrong calls.

To be perfectly honest - I prefer that possibility to the current situation where a team that is 2 points ahead knows the best option is to drag someone down in a headlock, at worst giving up a point in exchange for a substitution, all the while knowing they will then get the ball back and have the opportunity to run down the clock.

Gael85

PARlance wrote: »

13m free or Sin Bin works for me but I think I would favour the 13m free.
Something has to change, the black card has actually ended up promoting the thing it was brought in to stop.

Would agree with both 13m free and sin bin. A blackcard is only rewarding foul play bringing on a replacement. Jim Gavin never uses his 6th sub until at a minute or two to go. I suspect this is case someone has to take a blackcard for team. A player doesn't get suspended until they accumulate 3 black cards which is crazy, should be 2 black cards and a suspension. Another thing that should be looked at is yellow cards. If players get yellow carded 2 games in a row they should miss the next game. It possible for players to be booked every game and not got suspended. Only in the GAA

blackwhite

Gael85 wrote: »

Would agree with both 13m free and sin bin. A blackcard is only rewarding foul play bringing on a replacement. Jim Gavin never uses his 6th sub until at a minute or two to go. I suspect this is case someone has to take a blackcard for team. A player doesn't get suspended until they accumulate 3 black cards which is crazy, should be 2 black cards and a suspension. Another thing that should be looked at is yellow cards. If players get yellow carded 2 games in a row they should miss the next game. It possible for players to be booked every game and not got suspended. Only in the GAA

The GAA has a serious mental block when it comes to suspensions - from the organisation itself all the way through the majority of fans, and the . The offence doesn't matter, what matters when assessing a suspension is the significance of the game(s) that will be missed.
TBH the disciplinary processes in the GAA are nothing short of a joke, and are far more concerned with media coverage/perception than the actual rule book.

fyfe79

Shelflife wrote: »

The Black card should simply be off for 10 mins, similar to a YC in rugby.

keep your YC if you want , but for Cynical play give a black card and your team is down to 14 players for 10mins.

Two cards of any colour is a red.

The black card atm is a joke, swapping a player is something that you would do at underage games.

True. If a team wanted to make a tactical substitution but had used up all their subs, they could instruct a player to earn a black card so they can make that change.

Like you say, a black card should be a 10/15 minute sin-binning, but I think they should also add a 13m free regardless of where the offence occurred. That would sort out the situation of forwards, when they lose possession, pulling back defenders to prevent a quick breakaway.

Fr Tod Umptious

fyfe79 wrote: »

True. If a team wanted to make a tactical substitution but had used up all their subs, they could instruct a player to earn a black card so they can make that change.

Like you say, a black card should be a 10/15 minute sin-binning, but I think they should also add a 13m free regardless of where the offence occurred. That would sort out the situation of forwards, when they lose possession, pulling back defenders to prevent a quick breakaway.

If you are out of subs and you get a black card then you are a man down, the player cannot be replaced.

fyfe79

Fair enough, didn't know that. I guess the situation has never arisen!

Fr Tod Umptious

fyfe79 wrote: »

Fair enough, didn't know that. I guess the situation has never arisen!

It arose twice in the last few weeks.

Mayo played the last minute or so v Tipp with 14 when Vaughan was sent off and Mayo were out of sub's.

Same happened a few weeks earlier when Dublin were down to 13 too when they got a late black and were out of sub's.

keeponhurling

Some incredible inconsistency again in yesterday's final in the issuing of black cards, just as there has been all year.

If these were issued correctly from the beginning, players would learn.
Drag downs, third man tackles and giving lip to the referee are not things people need to see in football.

I kind of felt sorry for the ref, as the All-Ireland final is probably not the place to be issuing 5 or 6 black cards, regardless of how niggly the game was.
They gave McCarthy a black card, but then seemed reluctant to hand out any more.

The most blatant ones were Cillian O'Connor and MacCauley x 2 - difficult to interpret them as anything other than a drag down, as well as various other offences.