Black Cards Again !

Xenophile

I cannot see any thread here on Black Cards in the last year so I would like to reopen the discussion without repeating anything that has been said here before.

To the point.

A Black card in football with 15 minutes of the 70 remaining should automatically be a Red Card. Fourth official to have responsibility of advising the referee in regard to the time of the offence.


Hurling

With 15 minutes remaining the equivalent of a Black Card in football should become a Red Card.

howiya

Terrible idea. How do you define the last 15 minutes of a match? Is it from 55 on or does the referee have the authority to say there's already been a 5 minute stoppage so I'll only implement your idea from 60 minutes as the clock will run to 75 minutes.... Another stoppage and the offence may not have been in the last 15 minutes of the game...

Xenophile

howiya wrote: »

Terrible idea. How do you define the last 15 minutes of a match? Is it from 55 on or does the referee have the authority to say there's already been a 5 minute stoppage so I'll only implement your idea from 60 minutes as the clock will run to 75 minutes.... Another stoppage and the offence may not have been in the last 15 minutes of the game...

Its quite clear, a red card anytime after 55 minutes play. Let's keep it simple !

bruschi

Xenophile wrote: »

Its quite clear, a red card anytime after 55 minutes play. Let's keep it simple !

agree. a red card offence gets a red card. a black card offence gets a black card.

heroics

bruschi wrote: »

agree. a red card offence gets a red card. a black card offence gets a black card.

This +1

Why would you think a black card offence should become a red card just because its the last 15 minutes?

From my experience so far in club football this year the refs have stopped giving out black cards and generally give yellows/warnings instead.

Xenophile

heroics wrote: »

This +1

Why would you think a black card offence should become a red card just because its the last 15 minutes?

From my experience so far in club football this year the refs have stopped giving out black cards and generally give yellows/warnings instead.

If you drag someone down in front of goal with three minutes to go, the player takes a black card for the team, this is not an appropriate punishment, it makes a total laugh of the black card.

Fr Tod Umptious

Black card offences in the last 5 minutes gets a black card and a 13m free regardless of where it happens.

heroics

Xenophile wrote: »

If you drag someone down in front of goal with three minutes to go, the player takes a black card for the team, this is not an appropriate punishment, it makes a total laugh of the black card.

with 3 minutes to go I don't think red or black will make a difference that player is still going to be dragged down if through on goal

ArmaniJeanss

Xenophile wrote: »

If you drag someone down in front of goal with three minutes to go, the player takes a black card for the team, this is not an appropriate punishment, it makes a total laugh of the black card.

All cards become of less importance as the match approaches its end.

Fr Tod Umptious

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

All cards become of less importance as the match approaches its end.

That's why there needs to be an extra punishment like a 13m free.

Xenophile

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

All cards become of less importance as the match approaches its end.

A red card will impact on the team for the following game !

cj maxx

I think the black card should be scrapped.
Yellow cards and reds were better. The black card was a attempt to do something about the "professional foul " without calling anything " professional " in front of the GPA. A cop-out by punishing individuals more than the team and is open to abuse by counties with stronger squads v weaker counties

Xenophile

cjmc wrote: »

I think the black card should be scrapped.
Yellow cards and reds were better. The black card was a attempt to do something about the "professional foul " without calling anything " professional " in front of the GPA. A cop-out by punishing individuals more than the team and is open to abuse by counties with stronger squads v weaker counties

I agree, so lets say long live the red card and the courage of referees to use it !

nice_guy80

I personally liked the sin bin.

for the last 10 minutes of a game it would really punish the offending team

howiya

Xenophile wrote: »

If you drag someone down in front of goal with three minutes to go, the player takes a black card for the team, this is not an appropriate punishment, it makes a total laugh of the black card.

The current ruling makes no reference to where the offence takes place

Xenophile

howiya wrote: »

The current ruling makes no reference to where the offence takes place

It's time to have the rule completely reviewed !

ArmaniJeanss

Maybe the other team should play better and thus not be behind late in the game.
Or do their 'breaking the defence and being in on goal thing' in the 47th minute rather than the 67th minute. Thus making the committing a foul or not decision tougher for the opposition.
The idea that the penalty should be different depending on time remaining is bafflingly wrong. Play better sooner, induce yellow, black and red cards as early as possible and thus get the maximum benefit from them.

howiya

Xenophile wrote: »

It's time to have the rule completely reviewed !

You know what to do so. Propose the wording, bring it to your club's AGM and if passed onto county convention and so forth.

Xenophile

howiya wrote: »

You know what to do so. Propose the wording, bring it to your club's AGM and if passed onto county convention and so forth.

Absolutely correct, and I have a few months to do it before the AGM.

howiya

Xenophile wrote: »

Absolutely correct, and I have a few months to do it before the AGM.

Fair play. Good to see people not just talking about it but actually doing it

Shelflife

The Black card should simply be off for 10 mins, similar to a YC in rugby.

keep your YC if you want , but for Cynical play give a black card and your team is down to 14 players for 10mins.

Two cards of any colour is a red.

The black card atm is a joke, swapping a player is something that you would do at underage games.

bruschi

dont anyone tell me that the black card is working. I posted this here as this is not about Costello or what he did or the Dublin Kerry game, but the fact that this sort of "play" is "punished" by being substituted with less than 60 seconds of play left. Intentionally pulling someone down by a head lock as their opponent tried run up the field to get a game winning goal.

The black card is absolute nonsense. It does nothing to stop cynical play and in a lot of cases has just made things worse.

BonnieSituation

bruschi wrote: »

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I could see that as clear as day yesterday from 305RR and I was thinking that perhaps it wasn't as bad as it seems because surely the ref would have called it or the linesman would have done something.

bruschi

BonnieSituation wrote: »

I could see that as clear as day yesterday from 305RR and I was thinking that perhaps it wasn't as bad as it seems because surely the ref would have called it or the linesman would have done something.

they did. he got his black card. sure what harm. it's utterly ridiculous.

and again, this isnt about the game or Costello, this happens in every game now and will continue to happen. That right there is as good a case of cynicism as you will ever see. And how does the team being sinned against benefit? They dont. The player gets replaced, the play went on and they were an attacker down and more time is wasted in ordering off the player and a sub coming on. The player doing the fouling does his job and his team benefits from it without any significant repercussion.

Fr Tod Umptious

The black card is a great idea.

If reffs used it properly.

And if people like Tommy Carr refrained from telling us that the Tipp guy did not deserve the black card cos it was so early in the game.

They said on the Sunday game last night that it should be got rid of.

If it is then its back to the days of guys being hauled down left right and centre and no pusishiout than a free.

BonnieSituation

bruschi wrote: »

they did. he got his black card. sure what harm. it's utterly ridiculous.

and again, this isnt about the game or Costello, this happens in every game now and will continue to happen. That right there is as good a case of cynicism as you will ever see. And how does the team being sinned against benefit? They dont. The player gets replaced, the play went on and they were an attacker down and more time is wasted in ordering off the player and a sub coming on. The player doing the fouling does his job and his team benefits from it without any significant repercussion.

Sorry no. I mean he should have walked for that tbh.

Water John

I just thought the ref had forgotten to bring his black card with him yesterday, until I saw him produce it at the end.

danganabu

Water John wrote: »

I just thought the ref had forgotten to bring his black card with him yesterday, until I saw him produce it at the end.

Robbie Kiely must have felt very aggrieved watching it, its the lack of consitency is the problem.

bruschi

Does anyone think that the rules of the black card stop cynical fouling? The main talking point about this black card was Sean Cavanaghs pull down against Monaghan. If faced with the same situation again, would a player do anything differently? What is their punishment for stopping another team scoring a goal?

Or like yesterdays example and also Donal Vaughan in the last Mayo game, what was their punishment for stopping an attacking play in ijury time at the end when the opposition needed a goal. Did the punishment of a black card stop them from committing their acts?

vetinari

The black card has proven to be a terrible idea.
The GAA was too childish to borrow an idea that works from a "foreign" sport.
A yellow card resulting in 10 minute sin bin would do far more to stop professional fouling.
The black card as someone says only helps stronger counties.
Tipp's defensive organization took a big hit against Mayo because they have less strength in depth.

threeball

bruschi wrote: »

dont anyone tell me that the black card is working. I posted this here as this is not about Costello or what he did or the Dublin Kerry game, but the fact that this sort of "play" is "punished" by being substituted with less than 60 seconds of play left. Intentionally pulling someone down by a head lock as their opponent tried run up the field to get a game winning goal.

The black card is absolute nonsense. It does nothing to stop cynical play and in a lot of cases has just made things worse.

Perhaps the best route for incidents like above is citing's as in rugby. It wont help the team it hurts most but the likes of that can't go unpunished.

Dyr

bruschi wrote: »

Does anyone think that the rules of the black card stop cynical fouling? The main talking point about this black card was Sean Cavanaghs pull down against Monaghan. If faced with the same situation again, would a player do anything differently? What is their punishment for stopping another team scoring a goal?

Black card was more to deal with certain teams that were systematically pulling opposition players down to kill momentum so they can get their runners back into defence

It's worked very well in that regard

danganabu

Bambi wrote: »

Black card was more to deal with certain teams that were systematically pulling opposition players down to kill momentum so they can get their runners back into defence

It's worked very well in that regard

Can't say I have noticed any change to be honest!

Which teams fwiw?

Fr Tod Umptious

vetinari wrote: »

The black card has proven to be a terrible idea.
The GAA was too childish to borrow an idea that works from a "foreign" sport.
A yellow card resulting in 10 minute sin bin would do far more to stop professional fouling.
The black card as someone says only helps stronger counties.
Tipp's defensive organization took a big hit against Mayo because they have less strength in depth.

So on the Ulster final Tyrone should have been down to 13 for a period in the first half because two playets committed fouls that warranted to sin bin in your system.

Xenophile

What is currently deemed as a Black Card offence should be a Red Card if the foul is committed with fifteen minutes or less left on the clock !

danganabu

Xenophile wrote: »

What is currently deemed as a Black Card offence should be a Red Card if the foul is committed with fifteen minutes or less left on the clock !

So you want to change the rules in the middle of a game, bizzare!

SeaFields

I've heard the concept of an extra score for a free scored from a black card foul being muted. I think that is an idea worth exploring because in the dying minutes teams are willing to accept the black cards to protect a lead.

Water John

Bambi, correct it is usually the forwards who are under instruction to delay a counter attack after a turnover. It cut down on that.
Some players had it down to a fine art. Not totally dragging fellas to the ground but body checking all the time.

What is wrong with rule changes in the middle of a game?

StupidLikeAFox

As an aside, is there any other sport in the world who's rules are up for discussion as much as GAAs? Every year there is some sort of tinkering going on, some other rule suggestions, new structures, mark/no mark, sin bin etc. Every high profile match seems to wind up with more suggestions for rule changes. Seems to be an automatic reaction that the rules arent working, lets change them some more - never seems to pop up in other sports, that I can see anyway

danganabu

StupidLikeAFox wrote: »

As an aside, is there any other sport in the world who's rules are up for discussion as much as GAAs? Every year there is some sort of tinkering going on, some other rule suggestions, new structures, mark/no mark, sin bin etc. Every high profile match seems to wind up with more suggestions for rule changes. Seems to be an automatic reaction that the rules arent working, lets change them some more - never seems to pop up in other sports, that I can see anyway

Happens far more in Rugby I would have thought.

BonnieSituation

SeaFields wrote: »

I've heard the concept of an extra score for a free scored from a black card foul being muted. I think that is an idea worth exploring because in the dying minutes teams are willing to accept the black cards to protect a lead.

Merit in the idea. But it still keeps the black card which isn't really working.

There's a good few things that need changing though before that.

Xenophile

danganabu wrote: »

So you want to change the rules in the middle of a game, bizzare!

Change the rules before the game !

I am also aware that the three panellists on the Sunday Game last night were all in favour of scrapping the Black Card.

One way or another cynical fouling, especially in the last few minutes of a tight game will have to punished more severely.

Fr Tod Umptious

Xenophile wrote: »

What is currently deemed as a Black Card offence should be a Red Card if the foul is committed with fifteen minutes or less left on the clock !

You see that is all well and good until someone commits the foul at 54.59 and then there is all sorts of up roar about how cynical they are to do it out sode the 15 mins.

I'd keep the black card, but add a 13m free for every black card.

That would make them think twice about the pull downs late in the game when a team are just holding out and willing to take the black card.

bruschi

Bambi wrote: »

Black card was more to deal with certain teams that were systematically pulling opposition players down to kill momentum so they can get their runners back into defence

It's worked very well in that regard

what? it clearly hasnt if you see the example from yesterdays game. There were other examples of it too throughout the game where a player was breaking forward, and although may not have been pulled to the ground, but was intentionally fouled and then tried delay the quick free. It still happens and still happens a lot.

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

You see that is all well and good until someone commits the foul at 54.59 and then there is all sorts of up roar about how cynical they are to do it out sode the 15 mins.

I'd keep the black card, but add a 13m free for every black card.

That would make them think twice about the pull downs late in the game when a team are just holding out and willing to take the black card.

thats probably about where I am too. But even at that, take yesterdays example. They needed a goal, the point was little good to them. Refs rarely take the additional time wasted into account too.

I just think the whole thing is pretty much a failure. You have a black card offence for 5 types of foul. Its more or less only used on 1 (the pull down), sometimes on the body check and occasionally on the trip. I've rarely seen it used for abusive language to an opponent nor remonstrate in an aggressive manner to an official.

PARlance

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

You see that is all well and good until someone commits the foul at 54.59 and then there is all sorts of up roar about how cynical they are to do it out sode the 15 mins.

I'd keep the black card, but add a 13m free for every black card.

That would make them think twice about the pull downs late in the game when a team are just holding out and willing to take the black card.

13m free or Sin Bin works for me but I think I would favour the 13m free.
Something has to change, the black card has actually ended up promoting the thing it was brought in to stop.

threeball

PARlance wrote: »

13m free or Sin Bin works for me but I think I would favour the 13m free.
Something has to change, the black card has actually ended up promoting the thing it was brought in to stop.

I'd like to see both. I'd also like to see the lines if the D extended to the end line and if there's a clear pull down in a goal chance situation inside this then a penalty should be awarded.
Far too much of this rubbish in games and its always the same heads popping up committing the majority of offences in any given game.

blackwhite

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

You see that is all well and good until someone commits the foul at 54.59 and then there is all sorts of up roar about how cynical they are to do it out sode the 15 mins.

I'd keep the black card, but add a 13m free for every black card.

That would make them think twice about the pull downs late in the game when a team are just holding out and willing to take the black card.

I'd make it more harsh - black card offence replaced by 13m free AND if a point is scored directly from the free then the team being fouled gets the ball back on halfway to restart.
Punishes by giving a score, and by allowing the team to have another opportunity to attack if a goal is what's needed.

flasher0030

blackwhite wrote: »

I'd make it more harsh - black card offence replaced by 13m free AND if a point is scored directly from the free then the team being fouled gets the ball back on halfway to restart.
Punishes by giving a score, and by allowing the team to have another opportunity to attack if a goal is what's needed.

That’s all fine in the ideal world where the ref gets every call right, and teams are rightly punished for cynical play. But what if a ref gets a crucial call wrong. What if there is an accidental trip on an opponent in the last few minutes of a game, and there’s only 1 point separating the teams. Ref calls it as a black card offence. Team draws level with the free and then they start off possession again, with the chance of snatching a win. All because of a wrong referring decision.

When laying out the severity of the punishment, consideration should be given that refs will sometimes/often make wrong calls.

threeball

flasher0030 wrote: »

That’s all fine in the ideal world where the ref gets every call right, and teams are rightly punished for cynical play. But what if a ref gets a crucial call wrong. What if there is an accidental trip on an opponent in the last few minutes of a game, and there’s only 1 point separating the teams. Ref calls it as a black card offence. Team draws level with the free and then they start off possession again, with the chance of snatching a win. All because of a wrong referring decision.

When laying out the severity of the punishment, consideration should be given that refs will sometimes/often make wrong calls.

The definition of the black card needs to be narrowed also. It encompasses too many things. Should relate to blatant body checking and drag downs only. All the other stuff can be dealt with through red and yellow.

blackwhite

flasher0030 wrote: »

That’s all fine in the ideal world where the ref gets every call right, and teams are rightly punished for cynical play. But what if a ref gets a crucial call wrong. What if there is an accidental trip on an opponent in the last few minutes of a game, and there’s only 1 point separating the teams. Ref calls it as a black card offence. Team draws level with the free and then they start off possession again, with the chance of snatching a win. All because of a wrong referring decision.

When laying out the severity of the punishment, consideration should be given that refs will sometimes/often make wrong calls.

To be perfectly honest - I prefer that possibility to the current situation where a team that is 2 points ahead knows the best option is to drag someone down in a headlock, at worst giving up a point in exchange for a substitution, all the while knowing they will then get the ball back and have the opportunity to run down the clock.

Gael85

PARlance wrote: »

13m free or Sin Bin works for me but I think I would favour the 13m free.
Something has to change, the black card has actually ended up promoting the thing it was brought in to stop.

Would agree with both 13m free and sin bin. A blackcard is only rewarding foul play bringing on a replacement. Jim Gavin never uses his 6th sub until at a minute or two to go. I suspect this is case someone has to take a blackcard for team. A player doesn't get suspended until they accumulate 3 black cards which is crazy, should be 2 black cards and a suspension. Another thing that should be looked at is yellow cards. If players get yellow carded 2 games in a row they should miss the next game. It possible for players to be booked every game and not got suspended. Only in the GAA