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The 10 commandments......
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Renee Howling Quadrangle wrote: »How do you account for the fourth commandment which says to have no idols or as is actually referred to "graven images" and yet go into any RC building /school or grotto and there are graven images everywhere which have candles and other votives and which are prayed to
In Ex 20:4 it reads "Do not make yourself a carved image or any likeness of anything in heaven, or on the earth beneath, or in the waters under the earth; you shall not bow down to them or serve them." (CCB) The word 'graven' is used in other translations but that's the one I have here. Strictly speaking, the command forbids any image and any likeness of anything on heaven or earth. But in Ex: 25:18 God commands Moses "to make two golden cherubim of hammered gold" - cherubs being angels.
In Num 21:8-9 Yahweh commands Moses to make a bronze serpent and set it on a standard, so that when a man was bitten by a snake he could look on the serpent and live. (In 2Kgs 18:4, Hezekiah - who did what was right in the eyes of Yahweh - destroyed this same serpent because "...the Israelites were offering sacrifices to it and called it Nehushtan.")
Dotted throughout 1Kgs 6 when Solomon is building the Temple, there are references to images of creatures being used to decorate the building and God was happy enough that He consecrated it in chapter 9 of the same book.
Ezekiel, when he had a vision of an ideal Temple (41) saw graven images on the walls of it.
So, now we have God commanding one thing in one part of the bible and seemingly commanding violations of that initial command in other parts (only a few chapts. later in the case of Exodus). Could it be that God wants images of His creation used in His worship, as long as the creatures don't take the rightful place of the Creator? (like what happened with the bronze serpent?)
The Church, a long time ago, held a Council to decide whether the use of icons was legitimate or whether it broke the command about idols and if they were graven images (they are effectively images of God, the Son). The decision they reached was that since these were pictures of Jesus, who came in the flesh and had a finite body, they were allowable because God chose to reveal Himself in this fashion. The Church doesn't 'allow' images of the Father because no-one has seen His face and no image can do Him justice (they phrased it much better than me). The images of the Spirit includes a dove and tongues of fire because that's how the NT depicts Him; that's how He revealed Himself to us.
God forbids the worship of statues as gods but doesn't forbid their use.
Has Tatranska ever asked another Christian to pray for him or an intention? (Does he have a picture of Jesus?!) When I pray 'to' a Saint, I'm basically asking him or her to present my petition to God in a manner more favourable than I can. As perfect as I am among humans, I'm just a bit off when it comes to the inhabitants of Heaven. If "the prayer of a righteous man availeth much", why shouldn't I ask my brothers and sisters in Heaven, where there is no unrighteousness, for help? The statues, to me anyway, are an aid to prayer. If you have photos of your kids - which I'm sure you do - the photos are special because of whose image and likeness they portray...you don't have a particular preference for the material the photograph is printed on.
If you're still awake, thanks for reading and maybe inform yourself instead of making inaccurate accusations of your fellow brothers and sisters in future?0 -
lazybones32 wrote: »In Ex 20:4 it reads "Do not make yourself a carved image or any likeness of anything in heaven, or on the earth beneath, or in the waters under the earth; you shall not bow down to them or serve them." (CCB) The word 'graven' is used in other translations but that's the one I have here. Strictly speaking, the command forbids any image and any likeness of anything on heaven or earth. But in Ex: 25:18 God commands Moses "to make two golden cherubim of hammered gold" - cherubs being angels.
In Num 21:8-9 Yahweh commands Moses to make a bronze serpent and set it on a standard, so that when a man was bitten by a snake he could look on the serpent and live. (In 2Kgs 18:4, Hezekiah - who did what was right in the eyes of Yahweh - destroyed this same serpent because "...the Israelites were offering sacrifices to it and called it Nehushtan.")
Dotted throughout 1Kgs 6 when Solomon is building the Temple, there are references to images of creatures being used to decorate the building and God was happy enough that He consecrated it in chapter 9 of the same book.
Ezekiel, when he had a vision of an ideal Temple (41) saw graven images on the walls of it.
So, now we have God commanding one thing in one part of the bible and seemingly commanding violations of that initial command in other parts (only a few chapts. later in the case of Exodus). Could it be that God wants images of His creation used in His worship, as long as the creatures don't take the rightful place of the Creator? (like what happened with the bronze serpent?)
The Church, a long time ago, held a Council to decide whether the use of icons was legitimate or whether it broke the command about idols and if they were graven images (they are effectively images of God, the Son). The decision they reached was that since these were pictures of Jesus, who came in the flesh and had a finite body, they were allowable because God chose to reveal Himself in this fashion. The Church doesn't 'allow' images of the Father because no-one has seen His face and no image can do Him justice (they phrased it much better than me). The images of the Spirit includes a dove and tongues of fire because that's how the NT depicts Him; that's how He revealed Himself to us.
God forbids the worship of statues as gods but doesn't forbid their use.
Has Tatranska ever asked another Christian to pray for him or an intention? (Does he have a picture of Jesus?!) When I pray 'to' a Saint, I'm basically asking him or her to present my petition to God in a manner more favourable than I can. As perfect as I am among humans, I'm just a bit off when it comes to the inhabitants of Heaven. If "the prayer of a righteous man availeth much", why shouldn't I ask my brothers and sisters in Heaven, where there is no unrighteousness, for help? The statues, to me anyway, are an aid to prayer. If you have photos of your kids - which I'm sure you do - the photos are special because of whose image and likeness they portray...you don't have a particular preference for the material the photograph is printed on.
If you're still awake, thanks for reading and maybe inform yourself instead of making inaccurate accusations of your fellow brothers and sisters in future?
For a very simple reason. They can't hear you. You might as well walk into your garden and pray to a tree.0 -
lazybones32 wrote: »
So, now we have God commanding one thing in one part of the bible and seemingly commanding violations of that initial command in other parts (only a few chapts. later in the case of Exodus). Could it be that God wants images of His creation used in His worship, as long as the creatures don't take the rightful place of the Creator? (like what happened with the bronze serpent?)
Whenever we pray to anyone or thing other than God, we make them take the place of the creator.
Even John in Revelation when he worships the angel is rebuked and told not to.lazybones32 wrote: »The Church, a long time ago, held a Council to decide whether the use of icons was legitimate or whether it broke the command about idols and if they were graven images (they are effectively images of God, the Son). The decision they reached was that since these were pictures of Jesus, who came in the flesh and had a finite body, they were allowable because God chose to reveal Himself in this fashion. The Church doesn't 'allow' images of the Father because no-one has seen His face and no image can do Him justice (they phrased it much better than me). The images of the Spirit includes a dove and tongues of fire because that's how the NT depicts Him; that's how He revealed Himself to us.
Not one of us has seen Jesus, who is also God.lazybones32 wrote: »God forbids the worship of statues as gods but doesn't forbid their use.
The verb Worship is defined as
Show reverence and adoration for (a deity) 1.1 [no object] Take part in a religious ceremony:
1.2Feel great admiration or devotion for
What takes place before statues and icons in any church falls under the definition off worship. God forbids it.lazybones32 wrote: »
Has Tatranska ever asked another Christian to pray for him or an intention? (Does he have a picture of Jesus?!) When I pray 'to' a Saint, I'm basically asking him or her to present my petition to God in a manner more favourable than I can.
Jesus Himself said the time would come when we wouldn't even pray to the Father in His Name, but would ask the Father directly. As referred to above, John was told not to worship the angel.
If Scripture is so clear, were is the justification for praying to a heavenly being or person.lazybones32 wrote: »If you're still awake, thanks for reading and maybe inform yourself instead of making inaccurate accusations of your fellow brothers and sisters in future?
I was awake and what I said was accurate. If you disagree with it, that's another issue and is entirely your own.
Having been RC for many years and on the verge of joining a religious order. I am well aware of what goes on in the RCC and its ceremonies.0 -
lazybones32 wrote: »When I pray 'to' a Saint, I'm basically asking him or her to present my petition to God in a manner more favourable than I can.
This is really presenting God as some sort of judge, sitting on a throne not really able to make his own mind up about issues. He requires the help of some intermediaries and that is ridiculous, given he is an all knowing, all powerful, all loving, omnipotent being.0 -
This is really presenting God as some sort of judge, sitting on a throne not really able to make his own mind up about issues. He requires the help of some intermediaries and that is ridiculous, given he is an all knowing, all powerful, all loving, omnipotent being.
God Incarnate - Jesus Christ - was willing to heed the pleading of His mother Mary during his ministry on Earth.
Do you really believe that the loving relationships in this existence are forgotten or are disregarded in the next life?0 -
God Incarnate - Jesus Christ - was willing to heed the pleading of His mother Mary during his ministry on Earth.
Do you really believe that the loving relationships in this existence are forgotten or are disregarded in the next life?
Safehands...can you also tell hinault that when Mary and his bothers and sisters came to him and the crowd told them they were outside, He ignored them and continued with what he was doing, asking "Who are my mother and my brothers?"0 -
God Incarnate - Jesus Christ - was willing to heed the pleading of His mother Mary during his ministry on Earth.
Do you really believe that the loving relationships in this existence are forgotten or are disregarded in the next life?
We know very little about the next life. The thought that loving relationships continue and that human feelings and emotions are part of the spiritual condition, is really comforting. It is however, completely unrealistic, unfortunately. These emotions are part of the human condition, part of our brains and our minds. Our brain dies when we die. I'd like for it to be othewise, but it's not. Love and hate are part of this life, like breathing and going to the toilet. They won't be necessary in the next life. We won't need our bodies in a spiritual world. That is very hard for us to contemplate and really, it is probably not necessary to think about it in those terms. We are probably better off thinking about the next life in a human context, it's easier, even if it is totally unrealistic.0 -
We know very little about the next life. The thought that loving relationships continue and that human feelings and emotions are part of the spiritual condition, is really comforting. It is however, completely unrealistic, unfortunately. These emotions are part of the human condition, part of our brains and our minds. Our brain dies when we die. I'd like for it to be othewise, but it's not. Love and hate are part of this life, like breathing and going to the toilet. They won't be necessary in the next life. We won't need our bodies in a spiritual world. That is very hard for us to contemplate and really, it is probably not necessary to think about it in those terms. We are probably better off thinking about the next life in a human context, it's easier, even if it is totally unrealistic.
I accept that we know little about the next life however we're told that the metaphysical church has two forms - the human form in this existence and the spiritual form in the after life.
Are we really saying that the ties that bind both strands of the metaphysical church are loosed when it comes to relations between members of same?
It's absurd to say that on one hand we have a bound church (physical church and spiritual church) but that binding ceases when it comes to the relations between the members of the bound church.0 -
I accept that we know little about the next life however we're told that the metaphysical church has two forms - the human form in this existence and the spiritual form in the after life.
Are we really saying that the ties that bind both strands of the metaphysical church are loosed when it comes to relations between members of same?
It's absurd to say that on one hand we have a bound church (physical church and spiritual church) but that binding ceases when it comes to the relations between the members of the bound church.
Very interesting Hinault. The human form is physical, not metaphysical. Human emotions could be described as metphysical in that they are beyond physicality. But human emotions are inextricably linked with our brain and our mind. Our brains are physical, our minds are not. I don't think for a second that its absurd to suggest that the human emotions cease in the next life. We simply don't know.0 -
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We know very little about the next life. The thought that loving relationships continue and that human feelings and emotions are part of the spiritual condition, is really comforting. It is however, completely unrealistic, unfortunately. These emotions are part of the human condition, part of our brains and our minds. Our brain dies when we die. I'd like for it to be othewise, but it's not. Love and hate are part of this life, like breathing and going to the toilet. They won't be necessary in the next life. We won't need our bodies in a spiritual world. That is very hard for us to contemplate and really, it is probably not necessary to think about it in those terms. We are probably better off thinking about the next life in a human context, it's easier, even if it is totally unrealistic.
Surely if we dont have our bodies in any kind of afterlife, will that mean our brain and memories dont go with us? perhaps the Hindus are on to something and we are all reincarnations of other animals who spent a good life, we just dont know it as we left our memories in our previous body???0 -
Surely if we dont have our bodies in any kind of afterlife, will that mean our brain and memories dont go with us? perhaps the Hindus are on to something and we are all reincarnations of other animals who spent a good life, we just dont know it as we left our memories in our previous body???
Not IF we don't have our bodies, we don't! our brain doesn't go with us. Our memories are part of our brains so......
We don't know what happens, so you and I can speculate all day. I would love to think the Christian beliefs about the afterlife are true, but I can't see a God being humanlike in reality, sitting there conferring with angels and saints, asking their opinions. Not very likely, but that shouldn't stop us dreaming.0 -
Not IF we don't have our bodies, we don't! our brain doesn't go with us. Our memories are part of our brains so......
We don't know what happens, so you and I can speculate all day. I would love to think the Christian beliefs about the afterlife are true, but I can't see a God being humanlike in reality, sitting there conferring with angels and saints, asking their opinions. Not very likely, but that shouldn't stop us dreaming.
Good morning!
Who said God was human like? The only sense which we can see this is in so far that God can relate to us personally. We are in His image in that respect. In another sense we see that in Jesus. But there are copious ways we are not like God also. The conferring with angel thing seems to be folk religion rather than Biblical.
It far too simplistic to say you reject Christianity for that reason. It sounds unconsidered or at least not fully considered.
Much thanks in the Lord Jesus Christ,
solodeogloria0 -
solodeogloria wrote: »Good morning!
Who said God was human like? The only sense which we can see this is in so far that God can relate to us personally. We are in His image in that respect. In another sense we see that in Jesus. But there are copious ways we are not like God also. The conferring with angel thing seems to be folk religion rather than Biblical.
When someone posts "When I pray 'to' a Saint, I'm basically asking him or her to present my petition to God in a manner more favourable than I can. As perfect as I am among humans, I'm just a bit off when it comes to the inhabitants of Heaven." That is presenting God in a Humanlike form, with human attributes.solodeogloria wrote: »far too simplistic to say you reject Christianity for that reason. It sounds unconsidered or at least not fully considered.
Who said anything about rejecting Christianity?0 -
When someone posts "When I pray 'to' a Saint, I'm basically asking him or her to present my petition to God in a manner more favourable than I can. As perfect as I am among humans, I'm just a bit off when it comes to the inhabitants of Heaven." That is presenting God in a Humanlike form, with human attributes.
Who said anything about rejecting Christianity?
Good afternoon!
I agree with you about praying to saints. It isn't Biblical. All Christians have direct access in prayer to our Father in heaven through Jesus Christ. We don't need saints to intercede for us.
You said "I'd love to believe Christian beliefs about the afterlife are true" which implies that you don't believe in Christian views on the afterlife. I'm sorry if I'm wrong, that's my mistake.
What confused me more is that conferring with saints and angels bit. That as far as I'm concerned with doesn't seem to be in the Bible.
Much thanks in the Lord Jesus Christ,
solodeogloria0 -
For a very simple reason. They can't hear you. You might as well walk into your garden and pray to a tree.
"He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive." Lk 20:38
Jesus, during the transfiguration on the Mt., communicated with Moses and Elijah who had died between 10 and 20 Centuries beforehand. Jesus was a practising Jew who never broke the least commandment. How could he communicate with the dead without breaking the Law?
Sigh....The Saints aren't worshiped as a god, in and of themselves. Surely you knew this?! Nearly becoming a CB and all...Renee Howling Quadrangle wrote: »Whenever we pray to anyone or thing other than God, we make them take the place of the creator.
Even John in Revelation when he worships the angel is rebuked and told not to.
I see him in the Eucharist. "This is my body..." It really is Jesus.Renee Howling Quadrangle wrote: »Not one of us has seen Jesus, who is also God.
I suppose the Japs worship each other when they bow as a greeting? God forbids it!!!Renee Howling Quadrangle wrote: »What takes place before statues and icons in any church falls under the definition off worship. God forbids it.
Wait...you use the fact that Jesus gave us a direct link to the Father as a reason why people in Heaven can't directly ask the Father on our behalf here? Christ didn't say one can only talk to the Father (did he?) and I notice you've neglected to answer the Q put to you about asking others to pray for you or your intentions? In Rev 8 (4?) an angel presents to God a censer filled with incense and the prayers of all the Saints. How dare God do such a thing! Why didn't He let us deliver them ourselves....Renee Howling Quadrangle wrote: »Jesus Himself said the time would come when we wouldn't even pray to the Father in His Name, but would ask the Father directly. As referred to above, John was told not to worship the angel.
If Scripture is so clear, were is the justification for praying to a heavenly being or person.
You might well have been awake but you definitely weren't getting the gist of what was being said....a discussion on Exodus and Kings at 11pm should be enough to put a person to sleep...Renee Howling Quadrangle wrote: »I was awake and what I said was accurate. If you disagree with it, that's another issue and is entirely your own.This is really presenting God as some sort of judge, sitting on a throne not really able to make his own mind up about issues. He requires the help of some intermediaries and that is ridiculous, given he is an all knowing, all powerful, all loving, omnipotent being.
I think it's your misunderstanding of what was written or my less than spectacular explanation. God is a judge who sits on a throne but I can't say whether He knows His own mind or not...I do think He allows Himself to be swayed on certain issues though. If that makes what you consider a non-existent entity ridiculous, so be it.0 -
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Actually, that is in your mind. It really is bread, 100%. But if you see Jesus in it, that is great.lazybones32 wrote: »I see him in the Eucharist. "This is my body..." It really is Jesus.
There we go, humanising God again. This is a spiritual place. There are no "thrones" in a spiritual world. But I understand the metaphor.lazybones32 wrote: »I think it's your misunderstanding of what was written or my less than spectacular explanation. God is a judge who sits on a throne but I can't say whether He knows His own mind or not...I do think He allows Himself to be swayed on certain issues though. If that makes what you consider a non-existent entity ridiculous, so be it.0 -
lazybones32 wrote: »"He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive." Lk 20:38
Jesus, during the transfiguration on the Mt., communicated with Moses and Elijah who had died between 10 and 20 Centuries beforehand. Jesus was a practising Jew who never broke the least commandment. How could he communicate with the dead without breaking the Law?.
How could Jesus, the Son of God, God in the flesh, communicate with those who live in his presence? I think you've answered your own question there.
There is no comparison between the event you describe and you or me getting down on our knees to pray to the dead. Besides, scripture tells us we have one mediator, Jesus Christ. We know he hears our prayer. Why go anywhere else? Its completely illogical and shows mistrust in scripture and in the power of God.0 -
Could you clarify what you mean by this? (It seems like you've made a U-turn but I'm not sure)How could Jesus, the Son of God, God in the flesh, communicate with those who live in his presence? I think you've answered your own question there.There is no comparison between the event you describe and you or me getting down on our knees to pray to the dead. Besides, scripture tells us we have one mediator, Jesus Christ. We know he hears our prayer. Why go anywhere else? Its completely illogical and shows mistrust in scripture and in the power of God.
No, there is no comparison....because I don't pray to the dead: I ask my living brothers and sisters who can see God face-to-face to also ask for me. Seeing as most Catholics begin and end prayer "In the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit" it's wrong to accuse one of 'going anywhere else'...0 -
Good morning!
Let's roll back a bit. Forget the living and the dead thing.
Why do you think praying to saints is a worthwhile activity?
I think it betrays the fact that you think that saints have a better standing with God than you do. If so, that's really sad. Jesus died for you so you can have a direct relationship with the Father.
Much thanks in the Lord Jesus Christ,
solodeogloria0 -
I've always wondered about this. What exactly does it mean?solodeogloria wrote: »Jesus died for you so you can have a direct relationship with the Father.
Does this question belong in a new thread?0 -
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"Forget the living and dead thing"?! You write it as if it were a thing of little consequence...Isn't this the exact wage paid to the person employed in the early morning and the one hired at the eleventh hour?
How often must I write: I do not pray to Saints as if they were gods in and of themselves. I pray 'to' them because prayer is the means of communicating with those who live in a different realm (beyond the physical means employed by humans - letter, text, phone call, face-to-face meeting). I ask my brothers and sisters, whose life and devotion to Our Lord has inspired me, to ask also on my behalf. It is not some servile fear that motivates me to seek their help, or a notion that I am unworthy to even ask Him (although I am), rather it is formed by my own impatience, my confidence in their confidence and faith and the fact that God moves far too slow for my personal liking - He says so Himself that He likes to be plagued by our petitions (my paraphrasing).
If you knew someone who had perfect faith, perfect trust, perfect hope, perfect love, perfect confidence and perfect conformity to the Divine Will (where they desire nothing that God wouldn't desire), would you not ask that person to pray for you or to help you to reach the degree that God has ordained for you? If I ask a person whose body is still animated, to pray for an intention of mine, how is this different from asking a person whose spirit is in the presence of the Trinity to pray for my intention? I am not constrained by time or mortality, thanks be to God. I try to ultilise the full armoury of God by calling on those who have won the race - how do we know they've won the race? We don't...fully, but we can judge that Christ will not leave those who've persevered to the end to suffer exclusion. God is glorified in His Saints because they serve to glorify the all-encompassing nature of His mercy. He knows that we are but dust and ashes and that we need to be saved by one of our own...0 -
lazybones32 wrote: »"Forget the living and dead thing"?! You write it as if it were a thing of little consequence...Isn't this the exact wage paid to the person employed in the early morning and the one hired at the eleventh hour?
How often must I write: I do not pray to Saints as if they were gods in and of themselves. I pray 'to' them because prayer is the means of communicating with those who live in a different realm (beyond the physical means employed by humans - letter, text, phone call, face-to-face meeting). I ask my brothers and sisters, whose life and devotion to Our Lord has inspired me, to ask also on my behalf. It is not some servile fear that motivates me to seek their help, or a notion that I am unworthy to even ask Him (although I am), rather it is formed by my own impatience, my confidence in their confidence and faith and the fact that God moves far too slow for my personal liking - He says so Himself that He likes to be plagued by our petitions (my paraphrasing).
If you knew someone who had perfect faith, perfect trust, perfect hope, perfect love, perfect confidence and perfect conformity to the Divine Will (where they desire nothing that God wouldn't desire), would you not ask that person to pray for you or to help you to reach the degree that God has ordained for you? If I ask a person whose body is still animated, to pray for an intention of mine, how is this different from asking a person whose spirit is in the presence of the Trinity to pray for my intention? I am not constrained by time or mortality, thanks be to God. I try to ultilise the full armoury of God by calling on those who have won the race - how do we know they've won the race? We don't...fully, but we can judge that Christ will not leave those who've persevered to the end to suffer exclusion. God is glorified in His Saints because they serve to glorify the all-encompassing nature of His mercy. He knows that we are but dust and ashes and that we need to be saved by one of our own...
The Bible calls that necromancy and medium ship. We are forbidden to contact the dead.0
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