Aerial Direction for Saorview

fuse

Have an aerial on the roof picking up saorview. It's mostly good reception but cuts out a bit and I think could be improved.

From the roof there is line-of-sight with Three rock (South West 242 10km) but the aerial, and those in surrounding area all seem to be pointing in the direction of Howth (North east-ish).

Does that sound correct? thanks

The Cush

What transmitter does the coverage checker recommend for your location - https://www.saorview.ie/en/get/coverage

fuse

It recommends Three Rock. Also shows Kippure and Greystones on the map. Doesn't show anything north of me.

Gerry Wicklow

It's possible they are aimed at the north for the UK channels. Remember if the aerials are shaped like <

---

or >

---

the signal is coming from the right.

The Cush

fuse wrote: »

It recommends Three Rock. Also shows Kippure and Greystones on the map. Doesn't show anything north of me.

As Gerry says the neighbouring aerials might be pointed at a transmitter in NI for the UK channels, the only Saorview transmitter in that direction is Clermont Carn in Co Louth so that's unlikely.

At 10km from Three Rock reception shouldn't be an issue, problem likely to be with the aerial or cabling and/or connection/connectors.

Sam Russell

What group aerial is it? 3 Rock is ch 30,33 Kippure is 54,58.

fuse

Gerry Wicklow wrote: »

It's possible they are aimed at the north for the UK channels. Remember if the aerials are shaped like <

---

or >

---

the signal is coming from the right.

Yes shaped like <

---

and facing North East.
There are three of them mounted on a pole at the chimney and all pointing same direction. I would have thought you'd be fine with one aerial and splitting the cable for multiple points?

This was all in place before I moved in.

So if I got a combi box I might find I can pick up free Uk channels (This is Freeview right?)

fuse

Sam Russell wrote: »

What group aerial is it? 3 Rock is ch 30,33 Kippure is 54,58.

I don't know what you mean?
They look like this

Gerry Wicklow

fuse wrote: »

...
So if I got a combi box I might find I can pick up free Uk channels (This is Freeview right?)

A combo box combines satellite using a dish and terrestrial using an aerial, to give you both the UK and Irish free channels. IF the aerial is getting a useable signal from the North your Tv should show them. It would need a DVB-T2 tuner for the UK HD channels. If you are interested in getting the free UK channels, a satellite system would be more reliable but you would still need some sort of working aerial for the Irish channels (they are not free on the UK satellites).

EDIT: in the picture above the signal would be coming from the right of image.

Gerry Wicklow

Just a thought. Assuming you are roughly in the Sandycove area they are aimed for the NI signals. You mention that it was a pre-existing setup. It's possible there is a booster amp on the mast that needs a power supply plugged in. At your range, 3Rock would nearly come in on a wet finger so you are probably getting it more by accident than anything else just now.

fuse

fuse wrote: »

I don't know what you mean?
They look like this

For Three Rock (to your Southwest), aerial needs to be this way.

fuse

Gerry Wicklow wrote: »

Just a thought. Assuming you are roughly in the Sandycove area they are aimed for the NI signals. You mention that it was a pre-existing setup. It's possible there is a booster amp on the mast that needs a power supply plugged in. At your range, 3Rock would nearly come in on a wet finger so you are probably getting it more by accident than anything else just now.

Yeah Dun Laoghaire area. That sounds right Gerry. I have been able to get saorview reception even when I plug the cable out of the wall socket, although lots of breaking up. I think the north-east facing antenna does improve the signal, but is, like you say, set up for UK reception.

So my TV is saorview compatible, but must not be UK Freeview compatible. It's DVB-T (not T2) http://www.whathifi.com/samsung/ue40d5000/specs

Pity about that. But that's great that I should be able to pick up a combo box, and add uk channels, assuming the reception is decent. Would I need a box with two separate inputs for each or could I combine them before going to the box?
There are 3 aerials all going the same direction, so I might move one over to three rock and leave the others.
Thanks for the help

coylemj

fuse wrote: »

From the roof there is line-of-sight with Three rock (South West 242 10km) but the aerial, and those in surrounding area all seem to be pointing in the direction of Howth (North east-ish).

Does that sound correct? thanks

It doesn't sound correct but that system does work at high elevations in the Blackrock/Dun Laoghaire area. What's happening is that your neighbours have large UHF aerials pointing to the Freeview transmitter in NI and the same aerial is picking up the 3Rock signal from the south-west, even though the aerials are pointing in the wrong direction and if you look at the neighbours' aerial, the polarity is vertical even though the 3Rock signal is horizontal.

Gerry Wicklow

fuse wrote: »

.......

So my TV is saorview compatible, but must not be UK Freeview compatible. It's DVB-T (not T2) http://www.whathifi.com/samsung/ue40d5000/specs

Pity about that. But that's great that I should be able to pick up a combo box, and add uk channels, assuming the reception is decent. Would I need a box with two separate inputs for each or could I combine them before going to the box?
There are 3 aerials all going the same direction, so I might move one over to three rock and leave the others.
Thanks for the help

A Saorview Tv will get the UK channels with a suitable aerial. The DVB-T2 is only for the HD versions, you would still get BBC etc in SD.
Most combo boxes (other than very basic) have 3 tuners/connections. 1 for terrestrial (Saorview/Freeview if in range) and 2 for satellite dish feeds. (1 to watch and 1 to record).
Your mention of 3 aerials sounds confusing. Could they be your neighbours also?

fuse

coylemj wrote: »

It doesn't sound correct but that system does work at high elevations in the Blackrock/Dun Laoghaire area. What's happening is that your neighbours have large UHF aerials pointing to the Freeview transmitter in NI and the same aerial is picking up the 3Rock signal from the south-west, even though the aerials are pointing in the wrong direction and if you look at the neighbours' aerial, the polarity is vertical even though the 3Rock signal is horizontal.

I'm not sure if the polarity is vertical. The long arm of the antenna is horizontal and the span of the V is horizontal also. I presume vertical doesn't mean the antenna is pointing skywards?! Is it referring to the span of the V?

fuse

Gerry Wicklow wrote: »

A Saorview Tv will get the UK channels with a suitable aerial. The DVB-T2 is only for the HD versions, you would still get BBC etc in SD.
Most combo boxes (other than very basic) have 3 tuners/connections. 1 for terrestrial (Saorview/Freeview if in range) and 2 for satellite dish feeds. (1 to watch and 1 to record).
Your mention of 3 aerials sounds confusing. Could they be your neighbours also?

I know. I was surprised when I checked, especially since they're all in same direction. Confirmed over the weekend that the 3 antennae are feeding into my attic! There is a junction box in the attic then. I need to trace exactly what's happening with them then. I know there's a junction box up there too.
I can only see all the expected saorview channels when I let my TV autotune. I'll try again this eve, see if I can manually find anything else.

coylemj

fuse wrote: »

I'm not sure if the polarity is vertical. The long arm of the antenna is horizontal and the span of the V is horizontal also. I presume vertical doesn't mean the antenna is pointing skywards?! Is it referring to the span of the V?

If you study the big aerials pointing north towards Howth, you'll see that the spikes on the long arm are vertical, that's the polarization and should match the transmitter signal. Here is an aerial with vertical alignment, the aerials pictured earlier in this thread are all aligned horizontally



If you can see 3Rock as you say then virtually anything will pick it up. Hardly anyone with one of those big aerials needs to bother with a separate SW pointing aerial for 3Rock, if they do it's usually overselling by the local TV installer. Take a look at the houses at the upper end of York Road and all around Whites Cross on the N11, they all have a big single aerial.

droidman123

Is it possible to get any UK freeview stations without a dish? Is it possible to get them with just a box and an aerial?

coylemj

droidman123 wrote: »

Is it possible to get any UK freeview stations without a dish? Is it possible to get them with just a box and an aerial?

You need to live near the border or at a high elevation along the east coast where under the right conditions, you may be able to pick up NI or Wales.

The key thing to look for is the aerials on your neighbours' houses. As I said in an earlier post, if you're on the upper end of York Road in Dun Laoghaire, you'll see these large aerials pointing north and none of them pointing to 3Rock, the reason is the favourable elevation and the lack of any obstruction to the signal coming from NI.

fuse

coylemj wrote: »

If you study the big aerials pointing north towards Howth, you'll see that the spikes on the long arm are vertical, that's the polarization and should match the transmitter signal. Here is an aerial with vertical alignment, the aerials pictured earlier in this thread are all aligned horizontally



If you can see 3Rock as you say then virtually anything will pick it up. Hardly anyone with one of those big aerials needs to bother with a separate SW pointing aerial for 3Rock, if they do it's usually overselling by the local TV installer. Take a look at the houses at the upper end of York Road and all around Whites Cross on the N11, they all have a big single aerial.

I get you now. Yes all vertical, including my own. I tried tuning in more stations but only got the Saorview ones. I switched the country on the Samsung TV to UK to see if that would have any affect, it detected about 70 channels but none displayed when I switched between them.

I'll try manually tuning them now.

There's one coax cable coming in the attic and it's attached to a junction box. The junction box has two cables feeding out of it, one of which is going to the Samsung downstairs.

fuse

This is the splitter in attic

The Cush

fuse wrote: »

I get you now. Yes all vertical, including my own. I tried tuning in more stations but only got the Saorview ones. I switched the country on the Samsung TV to UK to see if that would have any affect, it detected about 70 channels but none displayed when I switched between them.

When tuning in Saorview normally the TV will find 71 or 73 channels between the 2 Saorview muxes/frequencies, most of them blank and without a name. Does the epg display any of the UK channel names?

The Cush

fuse wrote: »

This is the splitter in attic

Is there any sort of a box on the aerial mast, i.e. a masthead amplifier which would boost a weak received signal from NI? The masthead amp would be powered from a power supply at one of the TV points via the co-ax cable through the splitter in the attic.

fuse

The Cush wrote: »

When tuning in Saorview normally the TV will find 71 or 73 channels between the 2 Saorview muxes/frequencies, most of them blank and without a name. Does the epg display any of the UK channel names?

Yeah that was it. I only saw channel names for the Irish channels.
RTE2 on ch 866, 1 on 860
Channel range from 800 - 872 but most are 'Service not available' with no name.

There seems to be a number of boxes on the mast. Dusky pic attached, hopefully will give an idea.

The Cush

fuse wrote: »

There seems to be a number of boxes on the mast. Dusky pic attached, hopefully will give an idea.

OK you mentioned earlier you had 3 aerials on the mast, I assume they're all combined down to the attic on a single cable.

Perhaps someone will confirm this is a stacked aerial installation (phased array) used to increase overall antenna gain.

Doesn't appear to be doing what it was installed for but then again it was probably installed for analogue tv reception from NI.

fuse

The Cush wrote: »

OK you mentioned earlier you had 3 aerials on the mast, I assume they're all combined down to the attic on a single cable.

Perhaps someone will confirm this is a stacked aerial installation (phased array) used to increase overall antenna gain.

Doesn't appear to be doing what it was installed for but then again it was probably installed for analogue tv reception from NI.

Yes all combined to a single cable which feeds into the centre point of red box above.

With the samsung TV set to Ireland it only picks up saorview. When I set it to UK it tunes 70 channels including saorview. But everything else is blank. This post explains that it's an issue specific to Samsung TVs that are not Saorview approved. http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=93364209&postcount=5

I think I'll need to get a combo box or different TV to test that I can receive the Freeview channels.

user1842

As The Crush said your aerials look like they have a mast head amplifier and it needs to be powered by a power supply. This may be plugged out or removed. You need to confirm if power is being provided:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AIgafRXbrdA

Gerry Wicklow

You only need a combo box if you intend connecting it to a satellite dish also. The fact that the spare blank Saorview channels are hidden when set to Ireland means it IS Saorview approved and working. When setting the TV as UK it sees all 70 Saorview channel holders as 'foreign' and places them in the 800s as it is meant to do.

The Cush

The Cush wrote: »

OK you mentioned earlier you had 3 aerials on the mast, I assume they're all combined down to the attic on a single cable.

Perhaps someone will confirm this is a stacked aerial installation (phased array) used to increase overall antenna gain.

Doesn't appear to be doing what it was installed for but then again it was probably installed for analogue tv reception from NI.

Maybe from Kilkeel, considering they are vertically polarised?

fuse

Gerry Wicklow wrote: »

You only need a combo box if you intend connecting it to a satellite dish also. The fact that the spare blank Saorview channels are hidden when set to Ireland means it IS Saorview approved and working. When setting the TV as UK it sees all 70 Saorview channel holders as 'foreign' and places them in the 800s as it is meant to do.

OK so is there a way I can actually get the channels to display on the TV then?

I had a look in the attic and there are lots of cables, couldn't confirm for sure that there is power going to the mast. I would be guess that there is.

The Cush

fuse wrote: »

OK so is there a way I can actually get the channels to display on the TV then?

I had a look in the attic and there are lots of cables, couldn't confirm for sure that there is power going to the mast. I would be guess that there is.

One option is to get a professional in to check the system.

Regarding power to the mast, is there a power supply unit located at any of the TV points with the co-ax cable connected to it? In your picture of the attic splitter, power would pass-through leg 2 by the looks of it to a masthead amp on the aerial mast, to which TV point does the co-ax cable at leg 2 go, is there a power supply located there? Maybe there isn't a power supply which might explain the lack of UK signal and occasional Saorview breakup or the power supply or masthead amp are faulty.

Examples of power supplies - https://www.blake-uk.com/66-power-supplies-regulated-and-unregulated-12v

WheatenBriar

Yeah either the power supply unit is gone or its not plugged in
Plugging it in or replacing it is worth doing
Reception there is from kilkeel alright,a direct unobstructed sea path

Carawaystick

droidman123 wrote: »

Is it possible to get any UK freeview stations without a dish? Is it possible to get them with just a box and an aerial?

Freeview is DTT like saorview, you can't get it with a dish at all.
You can get it in Arklow, aerial - amp - tv

WheatenBriar

Carawaystick wrote: »

Freeview is DTT like saorview, you can't get it with a dish at all.
You can get it in Arklow, aerial - amp - tv

Correct
Its wrong to say you have to be on high ground
Anyone who had useable UK analogue which is an awful lot of areas,in the east can get freeview

droidman123

Carawaystick wrote: »

Freeview is DTT like saorview, you can't get it with a dish at all.
You can get it in Arklow, aerial - amp - tv

What is the "amp" that i need? Is it an amplifier in the aerial?

The Cush

The question is how will the DTT replan and clearance of the 700MHz band affect overspill of Freeview along the east coast and NI in the next few years?

The plan for the main sites was included in a press release from the WEDDIP group at the end of April - http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=99656082#post99656082

The Cush

droidman123 wrote: »

What is the "amp" that i need? Is it an amplifier in the aerial?

No, masthead amplifier located near to the aerial with power supply at the TV point.

Examples
https://www.blake-uk.com/32-masthead-amplifiers-outdoor-low-noise
https://www.blake-uk.com/66-power-supplies-regulated-and-unregulated-12v

http://www.satworld.ie/amps-and-diplexers/masthead-amplifiers/
http://www.satworld.ie/amps-and-diplexers/power-supplies/
http://www.freetv.ie/saorview/amplifiers/masthead.html
http://www.freetv.ie/saorview/amplifiers/aerial-power-unit.html

WheatenBriar

The Cush wrote: »

The question is how will the DTT replan and clearance of the 700MHz band affect overspill of Freeview along the east coast and NI in the next few years?

The plan for the main sites was included in a press release from the WEDDIP group at the end of April - http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=99656082#post99656082

On presely,clermont carn taking ch 45 might be an issue down my way,however we cannot get saorview from there and never had a peep of analogue so probably not
Mt leinster does block Divis up in meath being the comparison but its very high and has no objects like the wicklow mtns in the way

Thurston?

fuse wrote: »

There seems to be a number of boxes on the mast. Dusky pic attached, hopefully will give an idea.

fuse wrote: »

Yes all combined to a single cable which feeds into the centre point of red box above.

Certainly a more elaborate setup than what seems to be the usual single wideband aerial used for Kilkeel & Clermont Carn, with the whole lot indiscriminately amplifed by the same amount.

Looks like the top 2 aerials would be for Kilkeel, by far the lower powered transmitter. These would be combined, to make a single large aerial basically, with the signal from this passing through a masthead amplifier.

The bottom aerial would be for Clermont Carn, combined with Kilkeel using a diplexer, a frequency-selective combiner, passing different frequency bands on each leg. Also possible there's some amplification for CC as well.

As for the Three Rock v. Clermont Carn factor, if the setup dates back to analogue days, & there was a decent signal from Clermont, it would have been chosen in preference to Three Rock, as TG4 from 3R was in a different aerial frequency group from the other 3 channels, which would have added complication to combining with Kilkeel.

fuse

I had another root around over the weekend and pretty sure I located the power cable running up to the mast. No sign of the power box so I can only assume it's up at the base of the mast on the roof.

I can't get up on the roof easily so may need to get a pro out to check it.

Another experiment I did was to disconnect all the cables that were feeding into the splitter box and down to the TV wall outputs. Lo and behold the signal on the TV downstairs didn't cut out! It degraded a bit but the channel was still pretty watchable! So the saorview signal is obviously pretty strong anyway.

So it really looks like I need to get someone out to check out the aerials on roof and whether the power going to them is working.

The Cush

fuse wrote: »

I had another root around over the weekend and pretty sure I located the power cable running up to the mast. No sign of the power box so I can only assume it's up at the base of the mast on the roof.

Power to a masthead amp will be carried on the same co-ax cable that carries the TV signal. How many cables run to the aerials from the attic?

fuse

The Cush wrote: »

Power to a masthead amp will be carried on the same co-ax cable that carries the TV signal. How many cables run to the aerials from the attic?

Really? That's the thing I could see the single main coax feeding up under the roof and out of sight towards the mast (there's an attic conversion.) I couldn't see any power line going up though. So I went to the eaves on teh other side of the attic room and could see a mains cable heading up under the roof in what looks like the direction of the mast.

When you say it's on the same co-ax cable, you mean there's also power in that cable, or the power cable should also run alongside it?

The Cush

fuse wrote: »

When you say it's on the same co-ax cable, you mean there's also power in that cable, or the power cable should also run alongside it?

It's only 12V and carried on the same cable. The power supply and amp are simply inserted into the line between the TV and aerial. Have a look at the links I posted above.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AIgafRXbrdA

fuse

The Cush wrote: »

One option is to get a professional in to check the system.

Regarding power to the mast, is there a power supply unit located at any of the TV points with the co-ax cable connected to it? In your picture of the attic splitter, power would pass-through leg 2 by the looks of it to a masthead amp on the aerial mast, to which TV point does the co-ax cable at leg 2 go, is there a power supply located there? Maybe there isn't a power supply which might explain the lack of UK signal and occasional Saorview breakup or the power supply or masthead amp are faulty.

Examples of power supplies - https://www.blake-uk.com/66-power-supplies-regulated-and-unregulated-12v

There's no power supply at the TV points. I couldn't see any power supply in the attic. The cable from antenna just goes straight into the red splitter box pictured earlier (larger middle one).

Given that I'm pretty sure there is already at least one masthead amplifier fitted on the roof, I might try picking up a power supply like: https://www.blake-uk.com/66-power-supplies-regulated-and-unregulated-12v and connect it in the attic. Ditch the red splitter box and just run the masthead cable into the power supply box and then connect one of the internal cables and I should have a good strong signal running to one of the wall sockets?
Only using one TV at the moment so I'm happy to just get a single power supply.

Will need a bit of trial and error to figure out which cable runs to the socket I'm using.

The Cush

If you're planning to feed further TV points from the attic in future this distribution amplifier with integrated power supply for a masthead amplifier might be worth considering

https://www.blake-uk.com/distribution-amplifiers-low-noise-indoor/204-amplifiers-and-boosters-4-6-8-way-fm-uhf-amplifier-distribution-amplifiers-proception.html

fuse

The Cush wrote: »

If you're planning to feed further TV points from the attic in future this distribution amplifier with integrated power supply for a masthead amplifier might be worth considering

https://www.blake-uk.com/distribution-amplifiers-low-noise-indoor/204-amplifiers-and-boosters-4-6-8-way-fm-uhf-amplifier-distribution-amplifiers-proception.html

I picked up a 2-output proception power supply from freetv.ie
Stuck some F connectors on the two cables going down to the living room. But the cable that comes from the mast is too thick to put standard F connectors on and the middle wire in it won't fit into the "in" of the power supply.

Is there some kind of adapter I should get?

I tried setting up the power supply in the living room. Connected the wall output to the "in" of the power supply and then cable to the TV in the "out". Didn't seem to change anything. I auto updated channels in UK mode and it did the usual, picked up over 70 channels but only the soarview ones worked...

I'm hoping the power supply will be more effective in the attic closer to the masthead...

Thurston?

There are f-connectors available for larger diameter cable but, for now if you want, you could just connect the splitter up again, & insert the power into the cable coming from 'thru leg 2' of the splitter. (Is the other that can't be seen simply labeled 'leg 1' or is it also a 'thru leg'?)

Maybe this was actually the cable that feeds the wall output you were using but if there's an actual wallplate with a socket, it's possible it's the type that blocks power from getting through.

The Cush

fuse wrote: »

I picked up a 2-output proception power supply from freetv.ie
Stuck some F connectors on the two cables going down to the living room. But the cable that comes from the mast is too thick to put standard F connectors on and the middle wire in it won't fit into the "in" of the power supply.

Is there some kind of adapter I should get?

Is there any identifying markings on the cable?

Standard F connectors fit RG6/CT100 size cables (7mm), I've used CT125 cable (8mm) previously which requires a slightly larger F connector. Yesterday I fitted an even larger F connector to an RG213 cable (50 ohm).

fuse

The Cush wrote: »

Is there any identifying markings on the cable?

Standard F connectors fit RG6/CT100 size cables (7mm), I've used CT125 cable (8mm) previously which requires a slightly larger F connector. Yesterday I fitted an even larger F connector to an RG213 cable (50 ohm).

I'll check for markings this evening. I could fit the connector over it once I had stripped back the black outer layer. I pared back the white plastic surrounding the core wire and fit the f connector over it, but then the actual core wire wouldn't fit into the input of the power supply box.

I'll try Thurstons method this eve by using the splitter box and hopefully that will do the job.

Cheers

fuse

OK, really hoped I'd get something this evening but no luck again.

I took a few pics to show exactly what's going on. I even brought the TV up to the attic to test properly.

Firstly I connected the masthead cable directly to TV and had perfect Saorview and nothing else.

I had a male/female coax plug so I cut the male end off and put an F connector on it.
I used the female end to connect the thicker masthead cable into.
Connected this to the IN of the power supply and connected the out directly to TV.
Once again perfect Saorview.

So I changed the TV country to UK and retuned. It picked up the 72 channels but still the same result - Saying "Service not available" when I try any of the channels from 801 - 850

Ch 800 says Data Service and shows 2rn logo.

Sorview channels work from 851 - 872


Some pics attached to show the setup.



http://i.imgur.com/hjbGvg5.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/DOfKr1p.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/jjEjHWq.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/7Aarzw9.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/NNMuPVx.jpg

Edit: Also, the red splitter box is an Inductive Combiner Splitter
I bypassed this with the power supply. Should I continue to use it?

The Cush

Assuming all the connections are properly made, as was said earlier the masthead amp could be faulty, assuming there is one there. How long has that aerial installation been in place?

You may have to get a professional installer to look at it if you're still interested in receiving the UK channels via the aerial.