Cork to Limerick route corridor: N20 vs R513

marno21

This thread is for discussing the merits of building a Cork-Limerick motorway along the route of the current N20 or the current R513/M8. Please keep all discussion to this thread, and all discussion of the planned M20 scheme to the current thread.

spacetweek

Summary

R513 would be shorter, but wouldn't fulfill all the aims of the M20 project, specifically:
Doesn't re-bypass Mallow
Doesn't upgrade horrific Buttevant/Croom central section where the road is not good enough for local traffic much less long distance
Doesn't provide extra capacity and better safety for the busy Cork-Mallow part

It also has a number of disadvantages:
Funnels all the traffic into Cork through Dunkettle
Would require 6-laning of Mitchelstown-Dunkettle to handle that much traffic
You'd still need a Cork North Ring Road

AugustusMinimus

spacetweek wrote: »

Summary

R513 would be shorter, but wouldn't fulfill all the aims of the M20 project, specifically:
Doesn't re-bypass Mallow
Doesn't upgrade horrific Buttevant/Croom central section where the road is not good enough for local traffic much less long distance
Doesn't provide extra capacity and better safety for the busy Cork-Mallow part

It also has a number of disadvantages:
Funnels all the traffic into Cork through Dunkettle
Would require 6-laning of Mitchelstown-Dunkettle to handle that much traffic
You'd still need a Cork North Ring Road

6 laning Cork to Watergrasshill would be easy as it has a wide median.

The other section is narrow median though and to make it worse, the viaduct over the Blackwater would require widening.

The case for the R513 is a very simplistic one and doesn't take a vast amount of problems into account.

marno21

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

6 laning Cork to Watergrasshill would be easy as it has a wide median.

The other section is narrow median though and to make it worse, the viaduct over the Blackwater would require widening.

The case for the R513 is a very simplistic one and doesn't take a vast amount of problems into account.

There would be no need to widen the M8 from Mitchelstown as the Feasability study shows only 2000 cars would transfer to the new road, wouldn't make much of a difference to current traffic levels

Calina

marno21 wrote: »

There would be no need to widen the M8 from Mitchelstown as the Feasability study shows only 2000 cars would transfer to the new road, wouldn't make much of a difference to current traffic levels

How many cars travel the N20 per day at the moment?

Cookiemunster

Calina wrote: »

How many cars travel the N20 per day at the moment?

I don't have the figures to hand, but most of the current N20 traffic is commuting to either Limerick or Cork from somewhere in between rather than traveling from one to the other. So removing that traffic by routing it through Mitchelstown wouldn't solve the problem of the current N20 not being suitable for the traffic levels using it.

zulutango

Cookiemunster wrote: »

I don't have the figures to hand, but most of the current N20 traffic is commuting to either Limerick or Cork from somewhere in between rather than traveling from one to the other. So removing that traffic by routing it through Mitchelstown wouldn't solve the problem of the current N20 not being suitable for the traffic levels using it.

Suitable road upgrades would cater for the local traffic. It doesn't require a full scale motorway.

On the other hand, Limerick City, Cork City and Waterford City do need to be linked by motorway if they are to significantly grow over the next few decades. In that sense, the R513 is obviously a much better option than the M20.

KCAccidental

zulutango wrote: »

Suitable road upgrades would cater for the local traffic. It doesn't require a full scale motorway.

On the other hand, Limerick City, Cork City and Waterford City do need to be linked by motorway if they are to significantly grow over the next few decades. In that sense, the R513 is obviously a much better option than the M20.

The costs of upgrades along the N20 plus the cost of an M513 would end up costing more.

zulutango

KCAccidental wrote: »

The costs of upgrades along the N20 plus the cost of an M513 would end up costing more.

The benefit of a M513 is far greater than that of the M20.

Cookiemunster

zulutango wrote: »

The benefit of a M513 is far greater than that of the M20.

In your opinion. Not in the opinion of those who make the decisions though. And I'm pretty sure they've done the cost benefit analysis.

Calina

zulutango wrote: »

The benefit of a M513 is far greater than that of the M20.

Be interested to know why in some detail.

zulutango

Calina wrote: »

Be interested to know why in some detail.

It would be the first phase of connecting three of the five largest urban centres in the country, as opposed to two.

If I'm driving from Limerick to Waterford, or say further to Rosslare, in 2030, which way should I go?

Calina

zulutango wrote: »

It would be the first phase of connecting three of the five largest urban centres in the country, as opposed to two.

If I'm driving from Limerick to Waterford, or say further to Rosslare, in 2030, which way should I go?

I asked for details of the benefits.

You need to explain why it's beneficial to do it that way.

zulutango

The benefit is to connect three urban centres instead of two.

Sam Russell

zulutango wrote: »

Suitable road upgrades would cater for the local traffic. It doesn't require a full scale motorway.

On the other hand, Limerick City, Cork City and Waterford City do need to be linked by motorway if they are to significantly grow over the next few decades. In that sense, the R513 is obviously a much better option than the M20.

I am not familiar with the area, but surely the R513 would be a better basis than theN20? It is about 50 km of Motorway via R513 whichever way it goes. The N20 route would be nearer to 80 km. Call it the M24 - Mitchelstown, Tipp, Hospital, Limerick.

The M24 would add about 20 km to the M20 Cork to Limerick, but at 60% of the cost based on distance. 20 km adds about 10 mins to the total journey.

Edit: clarified my thinking. R513 from Mitchelstown is not a bad road as it is, with few delaying towns/villages.

nordydan

zulutango wrote: »

Suitable road upgrades would cater for the local traffic. It doesn't require a full scale motorway.

On the other hand, Limerick City, Cork City and Waterford City do need to be linked by motorway if they are to significantly grow over the next few decades. In that sense, the R513 is obviously a much better option than the M20.

A split M/N24 of Limerick>Tipp>Cashel & Cahir>Waterford would cover the Limerick>Waterford & Cork>Waterford movements. It would also remove the deathtrap N74.

Cork>Limerick along the existing and populated N20.

JCX BXC

Considering we are all talking of the "Long term" connecting of Waterford, Limerick and Cork, does anyone take into consideration the Long term traffic volumes?

Sam Russell

The cost of the M24 (R153) motorway should be about €500m going by the cost of the M17/M18 .

How does that compare with the M20?

marno21

Sam Russell wrote: »

The cost of the M24 (R153) motorway should be about €500m going by the cost of the M17/M18 .

How does that compare with the M20?

The R513 does not solve the N24 issue. A lot of the traffic along the existing N24 would not use a N24 upgrade that goes by Mitchelstown. The actual Limerick-Waterford traffic is quite low, bumped up by commuter traffic & traffic in between the towns along the N24.

Sam Russell

marno21 wrote: »

The R513 does not solve the N24 issue. A lot of the traffic along the existing N24 would not use a N24 upgrade that goes by Mitchelstown. The actual Limerick-Waterford traffic is quite low, bumped up by commuter traffic & traffic in between the towns along the N24.

Route choice might solve some of that. It is 50 km whether it is N24 based or R513. An appropriate spur might help.

spacetweek

zulutango wrote: »

The benefit of a M513 is far greater than that of the M20.

Nobody so far has explained why a motorway via Mitchelstown would be better other than that it would be shorter. Which doesn't make it better.

ricimaki

As someone posted in the other thread, the feasibility study (PDF here) found that most of the traffic on the N20 is commuter and local trips:

5. Conclusions
The additional information gathered as part of traffic study for the M20 scheme reinforces the
recommendations of the Pre-Feasibility Study in the following aspects:

- Strategic “Long distance” trips along the N20 route are between 20 to 30% of total flows. Therefore remaining flows consisting of a minimum of around 8,000 vehicles and a maximum of 14,000 vehicles that would not be captured by a potential Eastern Corridor.

- Local and Commuter trips are very significant along the N20 route. In particular, traffic from Mallow to Cork is very important, reaching volumes above 8,000 vehicles per day (adding flows not only between these two main cities but traffic that is generated by intermediate zones inside that section). This volume would not be captured by the Eastern Corridor.

- The Western Corridor option still provides for the strategic long distance trips and provides a necessary upgrade to the existing N20 route to cater for significant traffic flows into the future.

We conclude that the recommendations of the Pre-Feasibility Report were correct and the Western Corridor should be pursued as the route for the Atlantic Corridor

As for building the motorway, surely it could be done in 2 or three phases, rather than all in one go, to spread the cost out further, and get it started?

Building in 3 phases, phase one could be north Charleville to south Mallow. This would remove the worst sections and bottlenecks from the route. Phase 2 would extend from Mallow to Cork, and phase 3 from Charleville to Patrickswell.

Building in 2 phases, phase one could be north Buttevant to Cork. This removes probably the biggest bottleneck on the route, and would also create a Mallow bypass. The second phase would then finish it.

Going for a M513/M24, all you'll get is a point-to-point motorway, with very little catchment area in-between. All the villages along the route are served well enough be the existing the road.

Leonard Hofstadter

Another problem with an M24 is that it would make the Cork-Limerick journey substantially longer, which would negate the benefit of having a motorway. Cork-Limerick via Cahir is 139 km as opposed to 102 km via the N20, even via Mitchelstown it is 112 km (although Google maps favours using the Jack Lynch tunnel, in which case it's 118 km via Mitchelstown and 145 km via the Cahir). The biggest problem with the 'M24/M513' argument is that it completely ignores the fact that very few people use the whole of the N20, most people use it to commute from one of the intermediate towns and villages to Cork or Limerick - that's what justifies the motorway, along with the obvious (and absolutely essential) benefit of connecting the country's second and third biggest cities.

Carawaystick

I'd say if there was Motorway, there'd be more Cork Limerick journeys, as the existing connections put people off making the trip.

Sam Russell

Bray to the airport is 22km but by the M50 it is 42km. Which way would you go - through town or by the M50?

ricimaki

Sam Russell wrote: »

Bray to the airport is 22km but by the M50 it is 42km. Which way would you go - through town or by the M50?

You'd go the fastest way, which would be the M50 at peak times, and through the city when its the middle of the night. The same applies to many routes all over the country, the Limerick tunnel being a prime example. When whichever motorway gets built eventually, the City-to-City traffic will take that route, but the commuter traffic - the majority of traffic on the existing N20 - won't be able to use the M513.

If an M513 does get built, Mallow, Buttevant and Charleville will still require bypasses, the N20 will still require upgrading to a dual carriageway in the future, and the Limerick to Cork traffic will take a longer route.

marno21

The idea of routing the M20 via the R513 is still hanging around like a bad smell

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/chambers-of-commerce-insisting-on-direct-cork-to-limerick-route-410847.html

marno21

http://www.independent.ie/regionals/corkman/news/motorway-will-not-go-through-mitchelstown-34917655.html

That's the finish of it now Ted.

AndyBoBandy

Folks,

apologies if it's already been said, or discussed in the other thread, but I've often looked at this M20 project, and the need to connect up Limerick & Cork via Motorway, and wondered why not use part of the existing M8 motorway to get towards Limerick, and then a spur from Mitchelstown over to south of Adare, or even over to Charleville, where it would link up with the existing N(M)20 (which would be upgraded to motorway standard)

I know you'd be completely bypassing Mallow (not even close to it), but would something like this not make more economic sense? resulting in less motorway needing to be built?

again apologies if it's completely unfeasible due to terrain/mountains etc... it's just I've often looked at the map and thought we already have a motorway going half way from Cork to Limerick, so why not use it as part of a new M20?



I know overall it could/would be an extra 20/30 kms (maybe more) due to the S shape it would take as opposed to the more direct route the N20 takes, but would it/could it work? or am I missing something blatantly obvious?

AndyBoBandy

marno21 wrote: »

http://www.independent.ie/regionals/corkman/news/motorway-will-not-go-through-mitchelstown-34917655.html

That's the finish of it now Ted.

Ah, I guess thats my plan dead & buried then!!

marno21

AndyBoBandy wrote: »

Folks,

apologies if it's already been said, or discussed in the other thread, but I've often looked at this M20 project, and the need to connect up Limerick & Cork via Motorway, and wondered why not use part of the existing M8 motorway to get towards Limerick, and then a spur from Mitchelstown over to south of Adare, or even over to Charleville, where it would link up with the existing N(M)20 (which would be upgraded to motorway standard)

I know you'd be completely bypassing Mallow (not even close to it), but would something like this not make more economic sense? resulting in less motorway needing to be built?

again apologies if it's completely unfeasible due to terrain/mountains etc... it's just I've often looked at the map and thought we already have a motorway going half way from Cork to Limerick, so why not use it as part of a new M20?



I know overall it could/would be an extra 20/30 kms (maybe more) due to the S shape it would take as opposed to the more direct route the N20 takes, but would it/could it work? or am I missing something blatantly obvious?

Said routing would require extensive tunnelling through the Ballyhoura mountains, which immediately removes any cost savings.

Also does nothing for traffic around Charleville, Buttevant and Mallow. The N20 routing was chosen as the only viable option in the feasability study and bar "cost saving" there is no other reason to route it towards the M8.