BA Computer Science - tips for gaining employment?

rawn

Hi all, my fiance (31) is just finishing up his Ordinary BA in Computer Science. I'm just wondering if there's any tips for him moving forward into employment? He's aiming towards Software Development, specifically Java. He's aware that a lot of positions will require experience, which he doesn't have so he may be a while looking, and in the meantime he wants to keep himself busy building a portfolio of sorts. He has some ideas for programs and apps that he will develop himself, but from experience does anyone have any tips about what they would look for in an employee that they would be willing to take on with no experience? Such as specific skills, programming knowledge etc. Or would he be better off doing the extra year to get an Honours BA?

Any tips would be greatly appreciated!

Stheno

moved from work and jobs, probably better here OP

Graham

There's a large number of posts on this subject already, I'd have a search through some of the previous responses.

L.Jenkins

A few things I think might help him:

• An Honurs Degree, if feasible.
• Set Up a Github Account
• Develop Applications and post them to Github
• Contribute to Open Source Projects
• Branch Out in Web Development and Mobile Apps
• Learn to use things like Docker, SVN, Git, Bugzilla
• Understand Testing and Test Automation
• Branch out into and become proficient in languages like Java, C#, PHP etc.
• Learn Oracle DB, MongoDB, NoSQL etc. Where Possible.

rawn

Excellent Itzy thank you! Of course it's all gibberish to me but I'm going to forward it to himself now

Is the honours degree a major factor? He can defer for 18 months, the plan was that if not having it was a recurring reason for him not getting a job during that time then he would do it.

L.Jenkins

It would help, especially in this market. I'm sure others can weight in on this.

krazyklown

Would tend to agree with Itzy - after a hiatus of 7 years, having an Honours Degree got me into the industry again 5 years ago. Plus if its an option and as painful a decision it is, if he defers it, he may never get the chance again - go all the way while its a possibility and get as good as grade as possible, whilst also using the time to develop his skills and decide where in the industry he wants to be.
That all being said, the company i work for has taken on a couple of guys who did a Masters in IT / Software Engineering having come from totally unrelated fields and one in his mid-thirties and the other in late 20s. Depending on what he studied it may be an equivalent to the a 12 month / 18 month masters.

jester77

Itzy got it spot on.

What was he doing prior to his degree? Could he leverage the business knowledge he has previously acquired and apply his new skills to that area? Business knowledge is often more important than dev skills for some employers.

rawn

Thanks for the replies all!

He has no prior relevant experience outside academia. He was in/out of menial work before he went to college. He learned Java through FAS, then did Networking and Computer Programming in Whitehall college (a 2 year course but he went straight into Year 2) then went to ITB for a BA in Computer Science (3 years but went straight into Year 2). He's sitting his last exams now. He's reluctant to go straight into doing the Honours BA as we potentially have a baby on the way, and if that's the case then he'll want to find work wherever he can. But if that's not he case and the Honours is a game changer he would consider it.

L.Jenkins

rawn wrote: »

....He's reluctant to go straight into doing the Honours BA as we potentially have a baby on the way, and if that's the case then he'll want to find work wherever he can. But if that's not he case and the Honours is a game changer he would consider it.

I would encourage him to build a portfolio of work and post it to Github. Also, check out jobs on LinkedIn and Irishjobs, to see requirements for entry level jobs, as an idea of what skills he should be working on. It might not be ideal, but he should also try out a few simple, paid jobs on freelancer.com and the likes for additional experience.

rawn

Thanks Itzy that's much appreciated! He has a few ideas of projects to do once his exams are over, he has kept a list for the past year so I'll suggest Github for them when he finished them! As for freelancing I'm sure he's be more than happy to try that, in fact I think it'll be great for his confidence going into an interview if he has done some jobs freelance already

John_Mc

Itzy nailed it. Having interviewed many candidates, those with Github accounts where I could look through their repositories in advance and discuss in the interviews obviously came across a lot better.

Is there any reason why your fiance isn't on here asking these questions himself?

rawn

He's not on boards and is studying for his last 2 exams! Plus I wanted to see for myself what he's facing so I'll have some idea of what's ahead. Once the exams are done he'll join and subscribe to the forum for more general info and advice! He's amazed at how much i know about tenancy laws just from browsing the A&P forums

counterpointaud

rawn wrote: »

Thanks for the replies all!

He has no prior relevant experience outside academia. He was in/out of menial work before he went to college. He learned Java through FAS, then did Networking and Computer Programming in Whitehall college (a 2 year course but he went straight into Year 2) then went to ITB for a BA in Computer Science (3 years but went straight into Year 2). He's sitting his last exams now. He's reluctant to go straight into doing the Honours BA as we potentially have a baby on the way, and if that's the case then he'll want to find work wherever he can. But if that's not he case and the Honours is a game changer he would consider it.

I was in a pretty similar situation! Except the baby arrived shortly after year 1 began

I opted not to do 4th year (hon. degree), and started looking for a job as 3rd year drew close to the end. Most people wait until the exams are over to start looking, and I feel this helped my chances. I had a fair few phone interviews, and took a job with one of the big multinationals (had to move cities for this).

After a year of working for them, I was able to get a great job in my home city, just as my classmates were finishing fourth year.

If you have good understanding, grades, and projects at the end of third year, and financial pressures are there, my advice is to look for work early, and schedule interviews straight after the exams. You can always go back and do 4th year if it doesn't work out. In my case it was one of the best decisions I ever made.

14ned

Itzy wrote: »

A few things I think might help him:

• An Honurs Degree, if feasible.
• Set Up a Github Account
• Develop Applications and post them to Github
• Contribute to Open Source Projects
• Branch Out in Web Development and Mobile Apps
• Learn to use things like Docker, SVN, Git, Bugzilla
• Understand Testing and Test Automation
• Branch out into and become proficient in languages like Java, C#, PHP etc.
• Learn Oracle DB, MongoDB, NoSQL etc. Where Possible.

I couldn't agree more with the list above.

In terms of additional specifics, he should rent a cheap Virtual Private Server at maybe €3/month and install a continuous integration server onto it called Jenkins. He should configure Jenkins to talk to his github such that every change to code he sends to his github is tested automatically by Jenkins. Make sure it's all public and browseable on the web by potential employers, and mention it and its URL in the first paragraph of his CV.

Having that kind of stuff makes fresh graduates stand out as very interesting. It'll get him as far as a face to face interview, and that's the hardest part as a fresh graduate.

Niall

L.Jenkins

John_Mc wrote: »

Itzy nailed it. Having interviewed many candidates, those with Github accounts where I could look through their repositories in advance and discuss in the interviews obviously came across a lot better.

There's also Code Triage, allowing him to assist with bug fixing. So a lot of downloading projects, testing, developing solutions to problems and seeing if they are added to the main branch. Having his solutions to problems added to a main branch would be a success and talking point I imagine.

Roveros

Hi all,

I am the aforementioned fiancé and I have finally gotten myself a boards account so Rawn doesn't have to play middle-woman anymore. I really appreciate the advice I've seen so far. I was honestly surprised at how unprepared I felt leaving third level education. I was far more confident when I left secondary school with my leaving certificate than I am now with my bachelors.

I just got my results and a written reference from the supervisor who taught me Java a few days ago. I set up a LinkedIn page (as suggested by Itzy) with all the information I had from the last few years but I'm not 100% on whether I've done a good job on it. When I am satisfied with my LinkedIn I can use it to generate an IrishJobs account.

I was hoping I could put my LinkedIn page name here (/robertjbrowne) and maybe get some feedback from people with experience. For example, my headline says I am an entry level software engineer and I think that's the correct way to describe myself since I have studied software SDLC and use it in the development of software as apposed to coding from the hip which I think would be a software developer (and not engineer) or am I getting bogged down in interchangeable semantics?

I am also wondering if I was correct in listing 2 other colleges I have attended under Courses rather than the Education heading since they where not 3rd level colleges and awarded certificates and not degrees. Finally, while my web development grades where above average I do not feel confident in my HTML/CSS/AJAX/JSON/XML/JavaScript/JQuery skills and would not like them to be the bulk of my work in a given position. Should I have any of these listed under Skills as areas of expertise?

I have looked at a number of advertised positions and a great deal of them seem to involve programming in a web environment. Would it be advisable to just bite the bullet and brush up on the above mentioned skills? If I wanted to move away from that area of employment would strengthening my distributed systems and relational database knowledge be a viable alternative. I have some experience with Java RMI's and MySQL and feel I could build on that with little trouble.

I just feel a bit lost at the moment. My Java is quite strong but I hadn't realized that Java alone isn't enough to get a job and it needs to be supported by other skills. I'm just trying to figure out where to focus my efforts to get my careers started. The pressure is on now as *spoiler alert* I am going to be a husband and a father in less than a years time

As always, any advice or suggestions are entirely welcome and appreciated!

Thanks all

John_Mc

For a start, you should describe yourself as a graduate software developer.

Getting some of your code up on GitHub is far more likely to land you a good job than LinkedIn, which is mainly used by recruiters to cold call those with skills rather than employers head hunting.That being said, there's no reason why you cannot do both.

I think you're excluding a lot of jobs by excluding those that require HTML/CSS/AJAX/JSON/XML/JavaScript/JQuery.

It's not a good idea to do this just because you're not comfortable with it. You'll get comfortable with them if you put the work in.

Who knows, you might find you like them when you get a grasp what they are used for and how they work?

Buford T Justice

Most cloud based systems that are backed by whatever language are accessed via browsers, so you can't really avoid web technologies in fairness. Brushing up on them would be a good idea imo.

14ned

Roveros wrote: »

I was honestly surprised at how unprepared I felt leaving third level education. I was far more confident when I left secondary school with my leaving certificate than I am now with my bachelors.

I too was quite annoyed after graduation how I'd been lied to during education about what you get afterwards. Education is really box ticking rather than practical skills, I think there is a huge deficit in training in Ireland for stuff like how to get a job, how to keep a job, how to progress your career, how to not lose a family and work hard and so on.

Roveros wrote: »

I am also wondering if I was correct in listing 2 other colleges I have attended under Courses rather than the Education heading since they where not 3rd level colleges and awarded certificates and not degrees.

I list education in both Education and in work experience. As your career progresses and you keep taking courses, you need to explain gaps in employment.

Roveros wrote: »

Finally, while my web development grades where above average I do not feel confident in my HTML/CSS/AJAX/JSON/XML/JavaScript/JQuery skills and would not like them to be the bulk of my work in a given position. Should I have any of these listed under Skills as areas of expertise?

I think getting your foot in the door trumps any personal preference you might have right now.

It may turn out later you can't stand web development, or equally you can't stand Java development in the real world. Then would be the time to become more picky and you shape and direct and focus your career. Right now, take anything you can get.

Some would recommend unpaid intern work as a method of getting your foot in the door. I personally strongly recommend against that as I think there are much better options. But it can work.

Roveros wrote: »

I just feel a bit lost at the moment. My Java is quite strong but I hadn't realized that Java alone isn't enough to get a job and it needs to be supported by other skills. I'm just trying to figure out where to focus my efforts to get my careers started. The pressure is on now as *spoiler alert* I am going to be a husband and a father in less than a years time

Congrats on the new baby! They are expensive little things, my first one cost me about eight grand of additional spending in her first year alone not including child care. She also refuses to eat anything but fresh fruit and fancy aged cheese which most parents would be over the moon about, but when she demolishes a tenner of fruit a day it quickly adds up.

The biggest blocker for hiring new graduates is lack of proof they'll be anything but a sink of time and effort for your productive employees. Proof that the new hire can investigate bugs self directed is an enormous plus point. Proof that the new hire can then go ahead and fix those bugs is another enormous plus point.

tl;dr; Find an open source project you like and start closing bugs on it in your free time. Once you've cleared twenty bugs, and the patch fixes have entered mainline, mention that first thing in your CV with a link to the search for the bugs you closed.

If that doesn't get you to face to face interviews I would be quite surprised. That is all a CV can do for you, once at F2F it's a whole different skill set needed to clinch a job.

Niall

Roveros

Hi all,

I've read through the advice posted on this thread and have distilled it down to these bullet points in roughly descending order of implementation.

• Join LinkedIn and IrishJobs.
• Increase HTML/CSS/AJAX/JSON/XML/JavaScript/JQuery skillsets.
• Increase experience in Java, PHP, C# and possibly JavaScript.
• Learn Oracle DB, MongoDB, NoSQL.
• Make use of GitHub, build up repositories to demonstrate skill, link in C.V.
• Contribute to open source projects (codetriage) Goal: fix around 20 bugs, get your work committed to the main branch. Link to C.V
• Increase testing and test automation experience
• Gain mobile app experience
• Constantly reference job descriptions to identify prevalent requirements
• Try simple paid work on freelance.com
• Rent a Virtual Private Server, install Jenkins. Configure to talk to GitHub for testing automation. Make sure it public and put link in C.V
• Learn Docker, SVN, Bugzilla


I feel much more relaxed having plan of action now. I am very grateful. I have a few more follow on questions and then I hope to be able to continue on my own for a while.

Which DBMS would benefit me the most to learn first, my only experience so far was with MySQL? I used TravisCI for testing automation in college however this was done mostly by following a lecturers notes and I lack a true understanding/comfort with the service. With further study would TravisCI work in place of a private server with Jenkins? Does SVN refer to Apache Subversion control system? Would this be used along with GitHub or would it's commits act as a kind of versioning?

And finally, are there any resources you would recommend (anything from youtube to paperback) that I should watch/read to reinforce my base web skill-set? I want to start populating my GitHub with websites to practice/show my proficiency with different technologies. I would also appreciate a pointer to what could be considered best practices for testing. My PHP instructor had us using PHPDOC, PHPUnit and PHPCoverage which I really liked but without his lecture notes and his custom scripts I don't think I could replicate my previous work.

Sorry for the wall of text. Hopefully It will be the last one for a while

Thanks all

counterpointaud

My personal opinion, and some may disagree, is that learning JavaScript well is a great investment in the current climate. By JavaScript I mean ECMAScript 2015, not JQuery or any specific framework. If you know the language well then you can easily learn how to use NodeJS or React etc. effectively. SVN is a different beast to Git, I would focus on Git.

If you really want to avoid front-end technologies completely, then focusing on a back-end language, db admin, linux admin, and automation is probably the best bet. It seems like the job market is a bit better for front-end and full-stack people at the moment though.

Not sure I would focus too much on PHP based purely on job opportunities.

RE: Jenkins vs TravisCI - My understanding is that while in practice they often end up running a lot of the same tasks, Jenkins is bit more ubiquitous and offers more control. It will also encourage you to write your own automations scripts, which is a valuable skill.

RE: DBMS's - I'm not sure it really matters. Maybe one relational system and one NoSQL system. My personal preference would be PostgreSQL and RethinkDB.

The last thing is, if you don't live in Dublin or one of the bigger cities, it might be worth considering a hefty commute or a move for a year or so for your first job if nothing is available locally.

14ned

Roveros wrote: »

Which DBMS would benefit me the most to learn first, my only experience so far was with MySQL?

SQLite and MySQL are probably enough. If you end up going down the systems and apps programming route you'll need the former a lot. If you go down the web services route you'll need the latter more.

Both speak SQL of course, the real skill is learning how to configure both to scale well to unexpected load e.g. "the slashdot effect"

Roveros wrote: »

I used TravisCI for testing automation in college however this was done mostly by following a lecturers notes and I lack a true understanding/comfort with the service. With further study would TravisCI work in place of a private server with Jenkins?

Travis is fine for a free service, and with a lot of practice you can make it do all sorts of tricks. Jenkins is much fuller fat, and is likely what most small teams use internally. Jenkins is actually quite toy in the bigger picture, there are other CI systems far more powerful, but Jenkins is free.

Seeing as you have a baby on the way, you probably don't have the time to master Jenkins. It took me over a year before I felt I really understood it and all the black magic tricks you need very well.

Roveros wrote: »

Does SVN refer to Apache Subversion control system? Would this be used along with GitHub or would it's commits act as a kind of versioning?

And finally, are there any resources you would recommend (anything from youtube to paperback) that I should watch/read to reinforce my base web skill-set? I want to start populating my GitHub with websites to practice/show my proficiency with different technologies. I would also appreciate a pointer to what could be considered best practices for testing. My PHP instructor had us using PHPDOC, PHPUnit and PHPCoverage which I really liked but without his lecture notes and his custom scripts I don't think I could replicate my previous work.

As much as your own portfolio is better than the nothing most candidates have, proof of useful contributions to well known mature software is much better. Remember employers want to hire you to work on a mature piece of software. They don't want you to write new software, at least for the first three to five years, and you won't be allowed to design software probably for ten to fifteen. They want to know how much training of you will it take before you start contributing a net benefit. You need to persuade someone who examines your application for a total of about six seconds whether you're a six month effort or a twenty four month effort. That's why I suggested mentioning empirical evidence in the first paragraph of your CV, because you have just six seconds to get that second glance.

Start from the perspective of potential employers and build out your self directed experience from there.

Niall

Aswerty

I'd be somewhat skeptical of your plan of action Roveros. It's easy to throw together a big TODO list but in reality your list contains much too broad a scope of work. If you're putting a lot of time into actually searching for a job you won't be making much of a dent in it. What I'd recommend, and I'm fully aware others might disagree, is to narrow down that list so you can develop a core skill set which targets a specific type of job.

If your main competency is Java, then to me, it makes the most sense to focus on applying for Junior/Entry/Graduate Java roles. And if you're going down the Java route you'll most likely be focused on back-end web systems. And if you're working on the back-end you'll end up doing DB related stuff (SQL) - as such stick with a traditional RDBMS such as Oracle or MySQL. Leave the NoSQL stuff to the "rockstars" that like playing with the newest tech. If you're relatively comfortable working with SQL you can dabble with an ORM such as Hibernate (assuming Hibernate is still #1). And don't forget a web framework such as Spring would be considered par for the course when doing this sort of work.

The Java world often requires some experience with Linux - so if you've no familiarity with it that could be an issue.

If you're looking for back-end work steer clear of mobile app development - it's a whole other career path for you at the moment. Also, don't focus on other back-end languages such as C# or PHP, it'll just spread your knowledge too thin. Don't touch back-end JavaScript (Node) either - only go near JavaScript if you're doing front end work. While there is a good market for JS devs I think you're better off leveraging the knowledge you currently have as opposed to trying to migrate to another core language.

If you make a GitHub account you'll be using Git for source control by default. Since you should just use one source control tool at this point in your learning, it follows that you shouldn't bother with SVN. Similarly don't go near docker - it's another new fangled tech that you shouldn't get distracted by. And don't touch bugzilla - if you're using GitHub check out their bug/issue features. Finally, give build tools a wide berth - they're so important but as another posted mentioned above they can be a bit of a beast and newbies will be forgiven for not being all that familiar with them.

The above is what you should focus on (in my opinion) but I haven't touched on how best to learn this stuff. In terms of how to structure your learning you've touched on some of the different approaches: freelancing, personal projects, open source projects. The other main one is doing code challenges such as Project Euler, Codility, Hacker Rank, etc.

First of all, stay well clear of free lance sites - you'll get paid beans and might end up doing work that doesn't improve your job prospects. This leaves personal projects and open source projects - both have their pluses and minuses. Open source projects are good for working inside an existing structure which is important for employers. Personal projects provide better insight into how to develop software. Bear in mind, jumping on board an open source project to make a few commits prior to finding a job is kind of a dick move since main contributors will probably have to hold your hand and code review your work - which is all wasted if you're not going to stick around. But if you find something you think you might like to stay involved in - get stuck in.

The code challenge sites are great for the few days leading up to an interview where you can refresh your white board coding skills since the challenges are typically computer science oriented as opposed to getting **** done oriented. But beyond that they're not great.

So if I had to revise your TODO list.

• Constantly reference job descriptions to identify prevalent requirements
• Make use of GitHub (and Git), build up repositories to demonstrate skill, link in C.V.
• Contribute to an open source project or work on a personal project (or a bit of both)
• Increase experience in Java (try use an ORM, Web Framework, testing framework, and IDE such as IntelliJ/NetBeans/Eclipse)
• Learn Oracle DB or MySQL.
• Become comfortable with Linux.
• Increase HTML/CSS/AJAX/JSON/XML/JavaScript/JQuery skillsets.

A single personal project (e.g. small web application) could potentially tick every box in the list.

counterpointaud

Leave the NoSQL stuff to the "rockstars" that like playing with the newest tech.

Similarly don't go near docker - it's another new fangled tech that you shouldn't get distracted by.

Not sure if I agree with the above, as I think both will have some prominence in the industry going forward, but in general this post has some really solid advice. Particularly if you want to focus on leveraging your existing Java skills. Definitely +1 to reducing your list just those areas that will give you most return on your time. Otherwise it is just too much for anyone.

Graham

Roveros wrote: »

Hi all,

I've read through the advice posted on this thread and have distilled it down to these bullet points in roughly descending order of implementation.

• Join LinkedIn and IrishJobs.
• Increase HTML/CSS/AJAX/JSON/XML/JavaScript/JQuery skillsets.
• Increase experience in Java, PHP, C# and possibly JavaScript.
• Learn Oracle DB, MongoDB, NoSQL.
• Make use of GitHub, build up repositories to demonstrate skill, link in C.V.
• Contribute to open source projects (codetriage) Goal: fix around 20 bugs, get your work committed to the main branch. Link to C.V
• Increase testing and test automation experience
• Gain mobile app experience
• Constantly reference job descriptions to identify prevalent requirements
• Try simple paid work on freelance.com
• Rent a Virtual Private Server, install Jenkins. Configure to talk to GitHub for testing automation. Make sure it public and put link in C.V
• Learn Docker, SVN, Bugzilla


I feel much more relaxed having plan of action now.

Holy crap. That's not an action plan, it's a software company. By all means investigate those options, pick a few that interest you and start from there.

Aswerty

counterpointaud wrote: »

Not sure if I agree with the above, as I think both will have some prominence in the industry going forward

Hehe, I will admit that I was being deliberately provocative! But in all honesty, I don't think these are good technologies to focus on since they solve problems Roveros has probably never encountered. Saying that, they can be good for ticking the employers "candidate has an interest in the industry" box. But there is any number of things a candidate can do or learn to tick that box.

counterpointaud

Aswerty wrote: »

Hehe, I will admit that I was being deliberately provocative! But in all honesty, I don't think these are good technologies to focus on since they solve problems Roveros has probably never encountered. Saying that, they can be good for ticking the employers "candidate has an interest in the industry" box. But there is any number of things a candidate can do or learn to tick that box.

Thought you might have been :-). I agree though, in terms of initial focus. It can also tick the "recruiter buzzword" box I guess. But just knowing what the terms mean without any great detailed knowledge can do that in fairness. Talking to recruiters vs. talking to technical interviewers is probably a whole other topic actually, now that I think of it.

Roveros

Hi all,

Alright, again I have to say how grateful I am for all this advice (and saving me from potentially trying to solo a software company, talk about full stack development!) I was looking at a graduate developer position in Bank of Ireland, the skill requirements listed include Java, SQL and HTML among others. I was immediately unsuccessful which I would attribute to not being able to tick the level 8 qualification form checkbox.

With the requirements for that most recent graduate advertisment and the advice from this thread in mind I'm revising my plans again. I'm going to find some online resources that teach Java, Oracle and HTML/CSS and run through them all to reinforce what I know. While doing this I'll add small programs to my GitHub where possible with this fresh look at these technologies. I have an idea for an end project I'd like to create that would, if completed, be very helpful in my portfolio and will hit most of the revised tasks Aswerty suggested.

While in college I had planned on writing my own version of a pomdoro study-aid app to teach myself android development. Now I think I should make it web-based instead. This would involve creating the basic website which you would register on, log into and create tasks on. It would store task information in a database and the back-end would be java. I'm sure doing this would teach me alot and give me the confidence to call myself a developer.

When I reach the point where I begin this end project I'll start a new thread for advice but in the meantime do you think my proposed course of action is practical? I realize the 'best' way to progress is subjective, I would just like to avoid any clearly bad ideas.

As always, thanks all

Manach

Perhaps have a strong non IT related discussion point that would highlight his people skills. Project work is a team effort and showing an ability to fit in would be a plus.

Merrion

Itzy wrote: »

A few things I think might help him:

• Contribute to Open Source Projects

Underrated but really a good idea - it shows you are interested in programming.

fergalr

Roveros wrote: »

I've read through the advice posted on this thread and have distilled it down to these bullet points in roughly descending order of implementation.

...I think you are going to do just fine.

coniosumadre

Graham wrote: »

Roveros wrote: »

Hi all,

I've read through the advice posted on this thread and have distilled it down to these bullet points in roughly descending order of implementation.

Join LinkedIn and IrishJobs.
Increase HTML/CSS/AJAX/JSON/XML/JavaScript/JQuery skillsets.
Increase experience in Java, PHP, C# and possibly JavaScript.
Learn Oracle DB, MongoDB, NoSQL.
Make use of GitHub, build up repositories to demonstrate skill, link in C.V.
Contribute to open source projects (codetriage) Goal: fix around 20 bugs, get your work committed to the main branch. Link to C.V
Increase testing and test automation experience
Gain mobile app experience
Constantly reference job descriptions to identify prevalent requirements
Try simple paid work on freelance.com
Rent a Virtual Private Server, install Jenkins. Configure to talk to GitHub for testing automation. Make sure it public and put link in C.V
Learn Docker, SVN, Bugzilla


I feel much more relaxed having plan of action now.

Holy crap. That's not an action plan, it's a software company. By all means investigate those options, pick a few that interest you and start from there.

Exactly, I'm not suggesting it's an easy market, and it's always good to stay ahead of the pack. but for a graduate position I think maybe ye are going a bit far in fairness!

bpmurray

If you have an opportunity to do an honours degree, jump at it - it will mean much, much more than anything else you do. For example, multinationals won't even look at you unless you have a 4 year honours degree.

That said, you're looking at specific technologies. What I look for in a software developer is flexibility: if you are willing to try using Java, JavaScript, Ruby, Python, Perl, etc., without knowing the language, that's the attitude I want. Screw confidence in your technology X or Y skills: your willingness to jump into something is critical. I would assume you know how to program and how to think programmatically, the rest is just syntax.

counterpointaud

bpmurray wrote: »

multinationals won't even look at you unless you have a 4 year honours degree.

This is not true in my experience. I was hired a few weeks after my third year exams by one of the bigger multinationals, I had a level 7 with optional level 8 / extra year. I took the job. Two of my class-mates took a similar path, one with another multinational.

bpmurray

counterpointaud wrote: »

This is not true in my experience. I was hired a few weeks after my third year exams by one of the bigger multinationals, I had a level 7 with optional level 8 / extra year. I took the job. Two of my class-mates took a similar path, one with another multinational.

OK - it's true in the three major multinationals I know, for developer positions.

ShowMeTheCash

First off I think people are bamboozling you with too much information and cannot see the wood for the trees at this early stage.

First of where do you live?
Where are you willing to live?

Do some research to all the companies that have graduate programs.
Intel - I worked for Intel maybe 15 years ago, they have a huge graduate program and take on significant numbers each year.
Microsoft - Again a graduate program perhaps not as many in terms of numbers.
Google...
Dell...
Apple...
Citigroup and or any other investment bank that have offices in Ireland.
I know Citigroup do an "academy" essentially take on technical graduates giving them training and experience for 8 weeks if you do well there is probably a job in it at the end.

I have interviewed a ton of graduates for big name companies, be polite, be enthusiastic, be able to talk about a project with some clear technical knowledge....
Try not get flustered most interviewers (can only speak for myself) want you to do well, if there is something you do not know just say you do not know or you do not have a whole lot of experience in that area. Talk as long as required be try and be succinct, graduates have a habit of tying themselves in knots when they are talking about something they clearly know very little about.

Practice online code exams and examples in your chosen discipline.
There are a number of websites that will do it like brain bench.

You will find a lot of the larger companies will send out these to all applicants some of which you can do in your own time, only them will you be called to interview.

I think all the other advice on this thread is grand but probably not necessary. And secondary to the above, in my opinion.

Good Luck!

coniosumadre

ShowMeTheCash wrote: »

First off I think people are bamboozling you with too much information and cannot see the wood for the trees at this early stage.

First of where do you live?
Where are you willing to live?

Do some research to all the companies that have graduate programs.
Intel - I worked for Intel maybe 15 years ago, they have a huge graduate program and take on significant numbers each year.
Microsoft - Again a graduate program perhaps not as many in terms of numbers.
Google...
Dell...
Apple...
Citigroup and or any other investment bank that have offices in Ireland.
I know Citigroup do an "academy" essentially take on technical graduates giving them training and experience for 8 weeks if you do well there is probably a job in it at the end.

I have interviewed a ton of graduates for big name companies, be polite, be enthusiastic, be able to talk about a project with some clear technical knowledge....
Try not get flustered most interviewers (can only speak for myself) want you to do well, if there is something you do not know just say you do not know or you do not have a whole lot of experience in that area. Talk as long as required be try and be succinct, graduates have a habit of tying themselves in knots when they are talking about something they clearly know very little about.

Practice online code exams and examples in your chosen discipline.
There are a number of websites that will do it like brain bench.

You will find a lot of the larger companies will send out these to all applicants some of which you can do in your own time, only them will you be called to interview.

I think all the other advice on this thread is grand but probably not necessary. And secondary to the above, in my opinion.

Good Luck!

Amen to that

stefanovich

Roveros wrote: »

Hi all,

I've read through the advice posted on this thread and have distilled it down to these bullet points in roughly descending order of implementation.

• Join LinkedIn and IrishJobs.
• Increase HTML/CSS/AJAX/JSON/XML/JavaScript/JQuery skillsets.
• Increase experience in Java, PHP, C# and possibly JavaScript.
• Learn Oracle DB, MongoDB, NoSQL.
• Make use of GitHub, build up repositories to demonstrate skill, link in C.V.
• Contribute to open source projects (codetriage) Goal: fix around 20 bugs, get your work committed to the main branch. Link to C.V
• Increase testing and test automation experience
• Gain mobile app experience
• Constantly reference job descriptions to identify prevalent requirements
• Try simple paid work on freelance.com
• Rent a Virtual Private Server, install Jenkins. Configure to talk to GitHub for testing automation. Make sure it public and put link in C.V
• Learn Docker, SVN, Bugzilla


I feel much more relaxed having plan of action now. I am very grateful. I have a few more follow on questions and then I hope to be able to continue on my own for a while.

Which DBMS would benefit me the most to learn first, my only experience so far was with MySQL? I used TravisCI for testing automation in college however this was done mostly by following a lecturers notes and I lack a true understanding/comfort with the service. With further study would TravisCI work in place of a private server with Jenkins? Does SVN refer to Apache Subversion control system? Would this be used along with GitHub or would it's commits act as a kind of versioning?

And finally, are there any resources you would recommend (anything from youtube to paperback) that I should watch/read to reinforce my base web skill-set? I want to start populating my GitHub with websites to practice/show my proficiency with different technologies. I would also appreciate a pointer to what could be considered best practices for testing. My PHP instructor had us using PHPDOC, PHPUnit and PHPCoverage which I really liked but without his lecture notes and his custom scripts I don't think I could replicate my previous work.

Sorry for the wall of text. Hopefully It will be the last one for a while

Thanks all

Jesus. That's a horrendous amount of prework to get employed as a graduate. I would advise keeping busy while not employed but don't consider any of this stuff as a prerequisite to looking for employment. In fact I can see you just getting frustrated and confused even with the jargon.

Most employers in this field are rational people and would have certain expectations for graduates. I've seen the level of some graduates is quite poor so certainly being able to demonstrate programming ability is good but needing to know every new fad is just not true. Most people learn on the job. New language? If you know how to program you'll pick it up fairly quickly.

Just start applying now for work. Focus on one or two languages to stay fresh.
If it were me I would focus on one proper language like C and one scripting language (Perl or Python).

14ned

bpmurray wrote: »

For example, multinationals won't even look at you during your early career unless you have a 4 year honours degree.

Added a section for you there.

I've also noticed that contractors seem get an easier ride on having an honours degree or not compared to permies. Either way, once you're into your second decade of experience, degrees and such aren't so important except in academic programming roles.

ShowMeTheCash wrote: »

Do some research to all the companies that have graduate programs.

The way I read the OP was he was wanting to get as far as a F2F, and to do that he needs to get past the HR filters. He's already disadvantaged due to not having a honours degree from a top tier university, so my advice to him was based on getting a foot in the door, not trying to get into a graduate programme. I've even seen some people with qualifications from Ivy League universities in the US who got no traction because Irish HR doesn't name match their institution.

In my experience graduate programmes almost always select those with first class honours from the top tier engineering universities. If there are spaces remaining, they fill those with 2.1 honours candidates from the cream of the top tier engineering universities. If you don't have a 2.1, or didn't graduate from Trinity or the NUI or some but not all of the ITs, you stand little chance for a multinational graduate programme.

And that's not necessarily a bad thing for the OP - graduate programmes are there to shake out the chaff from the wheat, they are competitive and have a poor work life balance, and are therefore not conducive to a family life if you're about to have children.

I'd still recommend for the OP to find a local family run business, one which will be flexible and treat you well even if not pay well.

ShowMeTheCash wrote: »

I have interviewed a ton of graduates for big name companies, be polite, be enthusiastic, be able to talk about a project with some clear technical knowledge....
Try not get flustered most interviewers (can only speak for myself) want you to do well, if there is something you do not know just say you do not know or you do not have a whole lot of experience in that area. Talk as long as required be try and be succinct, graduates have a habit of tying themselves in knots when they are talking about something they clearly know very little about.

<snip>

I think all the other advice on this thread is grand but probably not necessary. And secondary to the above, in my opinion.

Interviewing skills are totally different to the skills required to get to F2F interviews, and in turn those are quite different skills from what is needed in the job. I agree once you're at F2F interview stage (which in itself is usually hard to reach for graduates without a 1st class honours from Trinity who was also the President of the Computer Society), the biggest failing is graduates who have a very poor understanding of their own inabilities. A good chunk also tell bald faced lies and try to faff their way past lack of knowledge of a topic instead of simply saying "I have no idea".

Niall

ShowMeTheCash

14ned wrote: »

Added a section for you there.
The way I read the OP was he was wanting to get as far as a F2F, and to do that he needs to get past the HR filters. He's already disadvantaged due to not having a honours degree from a top tier university, so my advice to him was based on getting a foot in the door, not trying to get into a graduate programme. I've even seen some people with qualifications from Ivy League universities in the US who got no traction because Irish HR doesn't name match their institution.

A lot of companies are shifting on this, yes if a company is getting 100s even 1000s of CV's it may not be feasible to interview everyone.
But a lot of companies now will at least let you do some sort of online technical test, a high score on a technical test might see you get in the door.
But I would not be put off.. apply or call them.

14ned wrote: »

In my experience graduate programmes almost always select those with first class honours from the top tier engineering universities. If there are spaces remaining, they fill those with 2.1 honours candidates from the cream of the top tier engineering universities. If you don't have a 2.1, or didn't graduate from Trinity or the NUI or some but not all of the ITs, you stand little chance for a multinational graduate programme.

I disagree on the top tier engineering universities, looking the Universities and graduate programs I have been involved with I have always seen a good mix of Universities, perhaps the companies you have been involved with are different but I would suggest this is not the case of them all. I agree that anything under a 2.1 you are kind of hoping that all spots have not been filled but again this does not mean you should not apply, like the lotto if you're not in you cannot win!

14ned wrote: »

And that's not necessarily a bad thing for the OP - graduate programmes are there to shake out the chaff from the wheat, they are competitive and have a poor work life balance, and are therefore not conducive to a family life if you're about to have children.

Again I disagree and would suggest the opposite!
I know a lot of the top tier companies have some very good work life balance schemes, wfh days flexible hours, optional holiday buy in's, good maternity or paternity time off, good insurance schemes, medical etc etc...

14ned wrote: »

I'd still recommend for the OP to find a local family run business, one which will be flexible and treat you well even if not pay well.

I do not know too many "family run" software companies, I know a lot of start-ups I have worked for a number of start up's and currently own one.
Thing with smaller companies or start ups they will probably demand more of your time or at least that is what I have found. The work life balance is not always consistent with family life but great for experience and great for fast tracking a career! But it can be very very demanding you might not see the same amount of time off, paid time off and perhaps less fringe benefits you might see at a larger company.
I have known guys to leave start ups simply because it was having too much of an impact on their family life.

As I say pros and cons.

14ned wrote: »

Interviewing skills are totally different to the skills required to get to F2F interviews, and in turn those are quite different skills from what is needed in the job. I agree once you're at F2F interview stage (which in itself is usually hard to reach for graduates without a 1st class honours from Trinity who was also the President of the Computer Society), the biggest failing is graduates who have a very poor understanding of their own inabilities. A good chunk also tell bald faced lies and try to faff their way past lack of knowledge of a topic instead of simply saying "I have no idea".

Niall

I would tell the OP not to be discourage, I think you are painting a very dire picture that if he did not finish top 2 of his class from Trinity he will not even get an interview, that is not the case there are lot's of graduate programs not only in Dublin but places like Belfast, they have some great programs or even a two year trip to the UK would be good on the CV.... Just to get him out of that graduate bracket.

rawn

Nvm!

Roveros

Hello all,

Loving the advice! Its helping me to get these different perspectives. I get that software development is a wide area of interest and that there can be a number of potentially conflicting opinions and pieces of advice that are true with respect to each poster. I found a book online called "Building Back-End Web Apps with Java, JPA and JSF". I have no experience with JPA and JSF and if I complete and understand the contents then I'll have a good example of my undertsanding of back-end programming that I can show employers. Its uses a step by step learn as you code to build:

"A back-end web app is a distributed web app where essentially all work is performed by the back-end component, including data validation and UI page creation, while the front-end only consists of a web browser’s rendering of HTML-forms-based UI pages."

I'm currently splitting my time between this and looking for positions I can apply for. I'm thinking maybe I should put some time aside for going though online code examples just to stay fresh incase I get a call for an interview. To answer ShowMeTheCash I live in Blanchardstown. Both my own and my fiancée's families are here so moving is not really an option. We have a great support network for when the child comes such that we may both be able to work and not have to worry about child care costs. I have no problem with commuting of course. I currently use public transportation or cycle whenever possible but my fiancée is getting ready to get a car which I'll be getting licensed on as well.

Thanks again for the support all, I'll keep taking steps forward and I'll find myself where I need to be eventually

bpmurray

ShowMeTheCash wrote: »

First off I think people are bamboozling you with too much information and cannot see the wood for the trees at this early stage.

First of where do you live?
Where are you willing to live?

Do some research to all the companies that have graduate programs.
Intel - I worked for Intel maybe 15 years ago, they have a huge graduate program and take on significant numbers each year.
Microsoft - Again a graduate program perhaps not as many in terms of numbers.
Google...
Dell...
Apple...
Citigroup and or any other investment bank that have offices in Ireland.
I know Citigroup do an "academy" essentially take on technical graduates giving them training and experience for 8 weeks if you do well there is probably a job in it at the end.

I have interviewed a ton of graduates for big name companies, be polite, be enthusiastic, be able to talk about a project with some clear technical knowledge....
Try not get flustered most interviewers (can only speak for myself) want you to do well, if there is something you do not know just say you do not know or you do not have a whole lot of experience in that area. Talk as long as required be try and be succinct, graduates have a habit of tying themselves in knots when they are talking about something they clearly know very little about.

Practice online code exams and examples in your chosen discipline.
There are a number of websites that will do it like brain bench.

You will find a lot of the larger companies will send out these to all applicants some of which you can do in your own time, only them will you be called to interview.

I think all the other advice on this thread is grand but probably not necessary. And secondary to the above, in my opinion.

Good Luck!

You left out the largest software development company in the country, probably as big as all the others put together - IBM.

ShowMeTheCash

bpmurray wrote: »

You left out the largest software development company in the country, probably as big as all the others put together - IBM.

Yeah IBM is another big name but I do not think they are not the largest in the country. Nor do they employ more than the others combined.
Just to give you an idea:

Intel approx 5000 in Leixlip
Google approx 6000 in Dublin
Apple Ireland (cork) approx 5000
Microsoft approx 2000
Dell approx 2500
IBM approx 3000

Here is a list of companies that operate in Ireland and how many they employ.

http://www.top1000.ie/companies

Roveros

Hey all,

Thanks for the continuing input. I'm looking for work. I've made applications to a few internships with Intel, IBM and Oracle as well as FINEOS and DemonWare. There is a google internship but it requires knowledge of linux "from kernel to shell" which precludes me from applying. There is also nothing from Dell or Microsoft. It hard to find positions to apply to that don't fill me with imposter syndrome. I might have to take another non-career related job soon to get some money up for my fiancée and myself. I have a friend who is continuing in ITB who has agreed to share the course material with me for the coming year, or at the least will give me the author and titles of the the books the courses are being based on. The idea being that if I return to complete the 4th year I will be familiar with most of the course work and can afford to put more time into my projects and come out with higher grades at the end of it. But that would put me back on 90 euro a week for 9 months which I really wanted to avoid. It might be unavoidable though.

Sorry, this post was more venting than asking a question or contributing to anything

Thanks all

bpmurray

ShowMeTheCash wrote: »

Yeah IBM is another big name but I do not think they are not the largest in the country. Nor do they employ more than the others combined.
Just to give you an idea:

Intel approx 5000 in Leixlip
Google approx 6000 in Dublin
Apple Ireland (cork) approx 5000
Microsoft approx 2000
Dell approx 2500
IBM approx 3000

Here is a list of companies that operate in Ireland and how many they employ.

http://www.top1000.ie/companies

I meant software development: most of those employers do very little software development. IBM have almost 2000 in dev roles which is much, much greater than any of the others.

L.Jenkins

I worked for IBM in Mulhuddart and the majority of the roles there were Support based roles. Intel has Development in Leixlip, Cork and Shannon. HP has Development in both Leixlip and Galway. I'm sure IBM is not the biggest Software House in the Country.

bpmurray

Itzy wrote: »

I worked for IBM in Mulhuddart and the majority of the roles there were Support based roles. Intel has Development in Leixlip, Cork and Shannon. HP has Development in both Leixlip and Galway. I'm sure IBM is not the biggest Software House in the Country.

Equine excrement!

IBM has about 100 in support in Mulhuddart and about 1500 in development. There is also a large group of folk in services (who do bespoke dev work) and in tech sales (who don't). IBM also have dev offices in Cork, Galway and Belfast.

ShowMeTheCash

bpmurray wrote: »

Equine excrement!

IBM has about 100 in support in Mulhuddart and about 1500 in development. There is also a large group of folk in services (who do bespoke dev work) and in tech sales (who don't). IBM also have dev offices in Cork, Galway and Belfast.

Not that matters, but I to would not have through IBM to be the largest dev house in Ireland.
They could be but not by the margins you are trying to convey.

I would say Intel easily have around 1500 dev roles of their 5000 to 6000 employees in Leixlip and that is not counting Shannon or Belfast.

Where are you getting your figures? The last poster said he worked in the Mulhuddart plant are you suggest he/she is lying?

Looking at the website it says Mulhuddart:

"delivers services, manufacturing, research and software development"

Blanchardstown is their European sales centre...

I know IBM employee around 3000 for Ireland across all sites, I know they also do manufacturing in Ireland as well as support, usually manufacturing accounts for a large number of head count as does support in most companies like Intel, easily half of the 5000 in Leixlip are in manufacturing.

How many graduates/interns do IBM take on every year?
I know Intel will take on around 150 placement students each year from BSc add BEng roles just to give an idea of how many of these roles are dev roles.

IBM I am sure have a large number of dev roles but I think perhaps you are a little confused.

If not show me where you are getting numbers instead of calling horse sh1t when people who worked in these plants tell you, you are wrong...

bpmurray

ShowMeTheCash wrote: »

Not that matters, but I to would not have through IBM to be the largest dev house in Ireland.
They could be but not by the margins you are trying to convey.

I would say Intel easily have around 1500 dev roles of their 5000 to 6000 employees in Leixlip and that is not counting Shannon or Belfast.

I know Intel do a lot of product dev work, but a lot of their focus is on devices and some of their stuff is pretty amazing. However, I don't believe they have that many software developers and the majority of their workforce are involved in the manufacturing end. On the other hand there are some very large software places like AIB but I think they're still smaller than IBM.

One thing is for sure - the cool companies that people all try to join like Google, Amazon, EBay, Facebook, Microsoft, etc. don't do a whole lot of development work in Ireland: much of it is sales, support and operations, with a little piece of dev work in the corner. Hopefully that'll change over time.

ShowMeTheCash wrote: »

Where are you getting your figures? The last poster said he worked in the Mulhuddart plant are you suggest he/she is lying?

Looking at the website it says Mulhuddart:

"delivers services, manufacturing, research and software development"

IBM addresses every single nook & cranny of the computing world. Their web site is externally facing, so it's important to impress potential customers and to emphasise that they can do anything in the area. However, all manufacturing has moved to different parts of the world over the years, so that one's definitely out of date.

ShowMeTheCash wrote: »

Blanchardstown is their European sales centre...

Actually it's Ballycoolin, near Blanch. Nope - over a year ago, those sales folk, very technical people who also develop solutions as part of their remit, moved to Mulhuddart. The other office only houses some Level 1 support folk now.

ShowMeTheCash wrote: »

I know IBM employee around 3000 for Ireland across all sites,

Nope - it's around 4000 - that web site is out of date.

ShowMeTheCash wrote: »

I know they also do manufacturing in Ireland

Not for years - all moved offshore

ShowMeTheCash wrote: »

as well as support,

There are around 100 in level 2 support and a couple of hundred in Level 1 in Ballycoolin.

ShowMeTheCash wrote: »

usually manufacturing accounts for a large number of head count as does support in most companies like Intel, easily half of the 5000 in Leixlip are in manufacturing.

True, except there's no manufacturing any more. Unless you include research playing with new devices or IoT experimentation, but that's really s/w R&D.

ShowMeTheCash wrote: »

How many graduates/interns do IBM take on every year?
I know Intel will take on around 150 placement students each year from BSc add BEng roles just to give an idea of how many of these roles are dev roles.

IBM have a number of schemes, the two major ones being:

• Extreme Blue is really, really hard to get on - it's over a summer where the students/graduates take an idea and execute it to a product, presenting the results to an audience of VPs and senior execs somewhere in Europe.
• IBM hires probably in excess of 200 recent graduate interns every year, spread throughout the year, depending on the current needs in the various areas. Many of these leave, for many reasons - post graduate courses, other jobs, etc. So then more are hired - I don't know the precise total number in a year but I know it's in excess of 200. Most of these are then made permanent.

ShowMeTheCash wrote: »

IBM I am sure have a large number of dev roles but I think perhaps you are a little confused.

If not show me where you are getting numbers instead of calling horse sh1t when people who worked in these plants tell you, you are wrong...

Perhaps my exclamation was over the top, but I actually work there now: the previous claimant was mistaken. IBM's numbers are quite a bit in excess of 3000 - closer to 4000, most of whom are working in development roles. By development, I include the following:

• Product development in Analytics, Cloud, DB2, Rational, Now Factory, Watson, Tivoli, and more.
• Testing - relying on automation (no manual testing done any more)
• Services doing bespoke development
• Internal systems development
• Research

Even the folk on the Digital Sales team are dev folk. And, of course, there are other roles: sales, mostly based in the city centre, admin & HR although they're not large numbers, financial people, again not a big population.

So my numbers are pretty accurate.