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BA Computer Science - tips for gaining employment?

rawn

Hi all, my fiance (31) is just finishing up his Ordinary BA in Computer Science. I'm just wondering if there's any tips for him moving forward into employment? He's aiming towards Software Development, specifically Java. He's aware that a lot of positions will require experience, which he doesn't have so he may be a while looking, and in the meantime he wants to keep himself busy building a portfolio of sorts. He has some ideas for programs and apps that he will develop himself, but from experience does anyone have any tips about what they would look for in an employee that they would be willing to take on with no experience? Such as specific skills, programming knowledge etc. Or would he be better off doing the extra year to get an Honours BA?

Any tips would be greatly appreciated!

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Stheno

moved from work and jobs, probably better here OP

Graham

There's a large number of posts on this subject already, I'd have a search through some of the previous responses.

L.Jenkins

A few things I think might help him:

An Honurs Degree, if feasible.
Set Up a Github Account
Develop Applications and post them to Github
Contribute to Open Source Projects
Branch Out in Web Development and Mobile Apps
Learn to use things like Docker, SVN, Git, Bugzilla
Understand Testing and Test Automation
Branch out into and become proficient in languages like Java, C#, PHP etc.
Learn Oracle DB, MongoDB, NoSQL etc. Where Possible.

rawn

Excellent Itzy thank you! Of course it's all gibberish to me but I'm going to forward it to himself now

Is the honours degree a major factor? He can defer for 18 months, the plan was that if not having it was a recurring reason for him not getting a job during that time then he would do it.

L.Jenkins

It would help, especially in this market. I'm sure others can weight in on this.

krazyklown

Would tend to agree with Itzy - after a hiatus of 7 years, having an Honours Degree got me into the industry again 5 years ago. Plus if its an option and as painful a decision it is, if he defers it, he may never get the chance again - go all the way while its a possibility and get as good as grade as possible, whilst also using the time to develop his skills and decide where in the industry he wants to be.
That all being said, the company i work for has taken on a couple of guys who did a Masters in IT / Software Engineering having come from totally unrelated fields and one in his mid-thirties and the other in late 20s. Depending on what he studied it may be an equivalent to the a 12 month / 18 month masters.

jester77

Itzy got it spot on.

What was he doing prior to his degree? Could he leverage the business knowledge he has previously acquired and apply his new skills to that area? Business knowledge is often more important than dev skills for some employers.

rawn

Thanks for the replies all!

He has no prior relevant experience outside academia. He was in/out of menial work before he went to college. He learned Java through FAS, then did Networking and Computer Programming in Whitehall college (a 2 year course but he went straight into Year 2) then went to ITB for a BA in Computer Science (3 years but went straight into Year 2). He's sitting his last exams now. He's reluctant to go straight into doing the Honours BA as we potentially have a baby on the way, and if that's the case then he'll want to find work wherever he can. But if that's not he case and the Honours is a game changer he would consider it.

L.Jenkins

rawn wrote: »

....He's reluctant to go straight into doing the Honours BA as we potentially have a baby on the way, and if that's the case then he'll want to find work wherever he can. But if that's not he case and the Honours is a game changer he would consider it.

I would encourage him to build a portfolio of work and post it to Github. Also, check out jobs on LinkedIn and Irishjobs, to see requirements for entry level jobs, as an idea of what skills he should be working on. It might not be ideal, but he should also try out a few simple, paid jobs on freelancer.com and the likes for additional experience.

rawn

Thanks Itzy that's much appreciated! He has a few ideas of projects to do once his exams are over, he has kept a list for the past year so I'll suggest Github for them when he finished them! As for freelancing I'm sure he's be more than happy to try that, in fact I think it'll be great for his confidence going into an interview if he has done some jobs freelance already

John_Mc

Itzy nailed it. Having interviewed many candidates, those with Github accounts where I could look through their repositories in advance and discuss in the interviews obviously came across a lot better.

Is there any reason why your fiance isn't on here asking these questions himself?

rawn

He's not on boards and is studying for his last 2 exams! Plus I wanted to see for myself what he's facing so I'll have some idea of what's ahead. Once the exams are done he'll join and subscribe to the forum for more general info and advice! He's amazed at how much i know about tenancy laws just from browsing the A&P forums

counterpointaud

rawn wrote: »

Thanks for the replies all!

He has no prior relevant experience outside academia. He was in/out of menial work before he went to college. He learned Java through FAS, then did Networking and Computer Programming in Whitehall college (a 2 year course but he went straight into Year 2) then went to ITB for a BA in Computer Science (3 years but went straight into Year 2). He's sitting his last exams now. He's reluctant to go straight into doing the Honours BA as we potentially have a baby on the way, and if that's the case then he'll want to find work wherever he can. But if that's not he case and the Honours is a game changer he would consider it.

I was in a pretty similar situation! Except the baby arrived shortly after year 1 began

I opted not to do 4th year (hon. degree), and started looking for a job as 3rd year drew close to the end. Most people wait until the exams are over to start looking, and I feel this helped my chances. I had a fair few phone interviews, and took a job with one of the big multinationals (had to move cities for this).

After a year of working for them, I was able to get a great job in my home city, just as my classmates were finishing fourth year.

If you have good understanding, grades, and projects at the end of third year, and financial pressures are there, my advice is to look for work early, and schedule interviews straight after the exams. You can always go back and do 4th year if it doesn't work out. In my case it was one of the best decisions I ever made.

14ned

Itzy wrote: »

A few things I think might help him:
An Honurs Degree, if feasible.

Set Up a Github Account

Develop Applications and post them to Github

Contribute to Open Source Projects

Branch Out in Web Development and Mobile Apps

Learn to use things like Docker, SVN, Git, Bugzilla

Understand Testing and Test Automation

Branch out into and become proficient in languages like Java, C#, PHP etc.

Learn Oracle DB, MongoDB, NoSQL etc. Where Possible.

I couldn't agree more with the list above.

In terms of additional specifics, he should rent a cheap Virtual Private Server at maybe €3/month and install a continuous integration server onto it called Jenkins. He should configure Jenkins to talk to his github such that every change to code he sends to his github is tested automatically by Jenkins. Make sure it's all public and browseable on the web by potential employers, and mention it and its URL in the first paragraph of his CV.

Having that kind of stuff makes fresh graduates stand out as very interesting. It'll get him as far as a face to face interview, and that's the hardest part as a fresh graduate.

Niall

L.Jenkins

John_Mc wrote: »

Itzy nailed it. Having interviewed many candidates, those with Github accounts where I could look through their repositories in advance and discuss in the interviews obviously came across a lot better.

There's also Code Triage, allowing him to assist with bug fixing. So a lot of downloading projects, testing, developing solutions to problems and seeing if they are added to the main branch. Having his solutions to problems added to a main branch would be a success and talking point I imagine.

Roveros

Hi all,

I am the aforementioned fiancé and I have finally gotten myself a boards account so Rawn doesn't have to play middle-woman anymore. I really appreciate the advice I've seen so far. I was honestly surprised at how unprepared I felt leaving third level education. I was far more confident when I left secondary school with my leaving certificate than I am now with my bachelors.

I just got my results and a written reference from the supervisor who taught me Java a few days ago. I set up a LinkedIn page (as suggested by Itzy) with all the information I had from the last few years but I'm not 100% on whether I've done a good job on it. When I am satisfied with my LinkedIn I can use it to generate an IrishJobs account.

I was hoping I could put my LinkedIn page name here (/robertjbrowne) and maybe get some feedback from people with experience. For example, my headline says I am an entry level software engineer and I think that's the correct way to describe myself since I have studied software SDLC and use it in the development of software as apposed to coding from the hip which I think would be a software developer (and not engineer) or am I getting bogged down in interchangeable semantics?

I am also wondering if I was correct in listing 2 other colleges I have attended under Courses rather than the Education heading since they where not 3rd level colleges and awarded certificates and not degrees. Finally, while my web development grades where above average I do not feel confident in my HTML/CSS/AJAX/JSON/XML/JavaScript/JQuery skills and would not like them to be the bulk of my work in a given position. Should I have any of these listed under Skills as areas of expertise?

I have looked at a number of advertised positions and a great deal of them seem to involve programming in a web environment. Would it be advisable to just bite the bullet and brush up on the above mentioned skills? If I wanted to move away from that area of employment would strengthening my distributed systems and relational database knowledge be a viable alternative. I have some experience with Java RMI's and MySQL and feel I could build on that with little trouble.

I just feel a bit lost at the moment. My Java is quite strong but I hadn't realized that Java alone isn't enough to get a job and it needs to be supported by other skills. I'm just trying to figure out where to focus my efforts to get my careers started. The pressure is on now as *spoiler alert* I am going to be a husband and a father in less than a years time

As always, any advice or suggestions are entirely welcome and appreciated!

Thanks all

John_Mc

For a start, you should describe yourself as a graduate software developer.

Getting some of your code up on GitHub is far more likely to land you a good job than LinkedIn, which is mainly used by recruiters to cold call those with skills rather than employers head hunting.That being said, there's no reason why you cannot do both.

I think you're excluding a lot of jobs by excluding those that require HTML/CSS/AJAX/JSON/XML/JavaScript/JQuery.

It's not a good idea to do this just because you're not comfortable with it. You'll get comfortable with them if you put the work in.

Who knows, you might find you like them when you get a grasp what they are used for and how they work?

Buford T Justice

Most cloud based systems that are backed by whatever language are accessed via browsers, so you can't really avoid web technologies in fairness. Brushing up on them would be a good idea imo.

14ned

Roveros wrote: »

I was honestly surprised at how unprepared I felt leaving third level education. I was far more confident when I left secondary school with my leaving certificate than I am now with my bachelors.

I too was quite annoyed after graduation how I'd been lied to during education about what you get afterwards. Education is really box ticking rather than practical skills, I think there is a huge deficit in training in Ireland for stuff like how to get a job, how to keep a job, how to progress your career, how to not lose a family and work hard and so on.

Roveros wrote: »

I am also wondering if I was correct in listing 2 other colleges I have attended under Courses rather than the Education heading since they where not 3rd level colleges and awarded certificates and not degrees.

I list education in both Education and in work experience. As your career progresses and you keep taking courses, you need to explain gaps in employment.

Roveros wrote: »

Finally, while my web development grades where above average I do not feel confident in my HTML/CSS/AJAX/JSON/XML/JavaScript/JQuery skills and would not like them to be the bulk of my work in a given position. Should I have any of these listed under Skills as areas of expertise?

I think getting your foot in the door trumps any personal preference you might have right now.

It may turn out later you can't stand web development, or equally you can't stand Java development in the real world. Then would be the time to become more picky and you shape and direct and focus your career. Right now, take anything you can get.

Some would recommend unpaid intern work as a method of getting your foot in the door. I personally strongly recommend against that as I think there are much better options. But it can work.

Roveros wrote: »

I just feel a bit lost at the moment. My Java is quite strong but I hadn't realized that Java alone isn't enough to get a job and it needs to be supported by other skills. I'm just trying to figure out where to focus my efforts to get my careers started. The pressure is on now as *spoiler alert* I am going to be a husband and a father in less than a years time

Congrats on the new baby! They are expensive little things, my first one cost me about eight grand of additional spending in her first year alone not including child care. She also refuses to eat anything but fresh fruit and fancy aged cheese which most parents would be over the moon about, but when she demolishes a tenner of fruit a day it quickly adds up.

The biggest blocker for hiring new graduates is lack of proof they'll be anything but a sink of time and effort for your productive employees. Proof that the new hire can investigate bugs self directed is an enormous plus point. Proof that the new hire can then go ahead and fix those bugs is another enormous plus point.

tl;dr; Find an open source project you like and start closing bugs on it in your free time. Once you've cleared twenty bugs, and the patch fixes have entered mainline, mention that first thing in your CV with a link to the search for the bugs you closed.

If that doesn't get you to face to face interviews I would be quite surprised. That is all a CV can do for you, once at F2F it's a whole different skill set needed to clinch a job.

Niall

Roveros

Hi all,

I've read through the advice posted on this thread and have distilled it down to these bullet points in roughly descending order of implementation.

• Join LinkedIn and IrishJobs.
• Increase HTML/CSS/AJAX/JSON/XML/JavaScript/JQuery skillsets.
• Increase experience in Java, PHP, C# and possibly JavaScript.
• Learn Oracle DB, MongoDB, NoSQL.
• Make use of GitHub, build up repositories to demonstrate skill, link in C.V.
• Contribute to open source projects (codetriage) Goal: fix around 20 bugs, get your work committed to the main branch. Link to C.V
• Increase testing and test automation experience
• Gain mobile app experience
• Constantly reference job descriptions to identify prevalent requirements
• Try simple paid work on freelance.com
• Rent a Virtual Private Server, install Jenkins. Configure to talk to GitHub for testing automation. Make sure it public and put link in C.V
• Learn Docker, SVN, Bugzilla

I feel much more relaxed having plan of action now. I am very grateful. I have a few more follow on questions and then I hope to be able to continue on my own for a while.

Which DBMS would benefit me the most to learn first, my only experience so far was with MySQL? I used TravisCI for testing automation in college however this was done mostly by following a lecturers notes and I lack a true understanding/comfort with the service. With further study would TravisCI work in place of a private server with Jenkins? Does SVN refer to Apache Subversion control system? Would this be used along with GitHub or would it's commits act as a kind of versioning?

And finally, are there any resources you would recommend (anything from youtube to paperback) that I should watch/read to reinforce my base web skill-set? I want to start populating my GitHub with websites to practice/show my proficiency with different technologies. I would also appreciate a pointer to what could be considered best practices for testing. My PHP instructor had us using PHPDOC, PHPUnit and PHPCoverage which I really liked but without his lecture notes and his custom scripts I don't think I could replicate my previous work.

Sorry for the wall of text. Hopefully It will be the last one for a while

Thanks all

counterpointaud

My personal opinion, and some may disagree, is that learning JavaScript well is a great investment in the current climate. By JavaScript I mean ECMAScript 2015, not JQuery or any specific framework. If you know the language well then you can easily learn how to use NodeJS or React etc. effectively. SVN is a different beast to Git, I would focus on Git.

If you really want to avoid front-end technologies completely, then focusing on a back-end language, db admin, linux admin, and automation is probably the best bet. It seems like the job market is a bit better for front-end and full-stack people at the moment though.

Not sure I would focus too much on PHP based purely on job opportunities.

RE: Jenkins vs TravisCI - My understanding is that while in practice they often end up running a lot of the same tasks, Jenkins is bit more ubiquitous and offers more control. It will also encourage you to write your own automations scripts, which is a valuable skill.

RE: DBMS's - I'm not sure it really matters. Maybe one relational system and one NoSQL system. My personal preference would be PostgreSQL and RethinkDB.

The last thing is, if you don't live in Dublin or one of the bigger cities, it might be worth considering a hefty commute or a move for a year or so for your first job if nothing is available locally.

14ned

Roveros wrote: »

Which DBMS would benefit me the most to learn first, my only experience so far was with MySQL?

SQLite and MySQL are probably enough. If you end up going down the systems and apps programming route you'll need the former a lot. If you go down the web services route you'll need the latter more.

Both speak SQL of course, the real skill is learning how to configure both to scale well to unexpected load e.g. "the slashdot effect"

Roveros wrote: »

I used TravisCI for testing automation in college however this was done mostly by following a lecturers notes and I lack a true understanding/comfort with the service. With further study would TravisCI work in place of a private server with Jenkins?

Travis is fine for a free service, and with a lot of practice you can make it do all sorts of tricks. Jenkins is much fuller fat, and is likely what most small teams use internally. Jenkins is actually quite toy in the bigger picture, there are other CI systems far more powerful, but Jenkins is free.

Seeing as you have a baby on the way, you probably don't have the time to master Jenkins. It took me over a year before I felt I really understood it and all the black magic tricks you need very well.

Roveros wrote: »

Does SVN refer to Apache Subversion control system? Would this be used along with GitHub or would it's commits act as a kind of versioning?

And finally, are there any resources you would recommend (anything from youtube to paperback) that I should watch/read to reinforce my base web skill-set? I want to start populating my GitHub with websites to practice/show my proficiency with different technologies. I would also appreciate a pointer to what could be considered best practices for testing. My PHP instructor had us using PHPDOC, PHPUnit and PHPCoverage which I really liked but without his lecture notes and his custom scripts I don't think I could replicate my previous work.

As much as your own portfolio is better than the nothing most candidates have, proof of useful contributions to well known mature software is much better. Remember employers want to hire you to work on a mature piece of software. They don't want you to write new software, at least for the first three to five years, and you won't be allowed to design software probably for ten to fifteen. They want to know how much training of you will it take before you start contributing a net benefit. You need to persuade someone who examines your application for a total of about six seconds whether you're a six month effort or a twenty four month effort. That's why I suggested mentioning empirical evidence in the first paragraph of your CV, because you have just six seconds to get that second glance.

Start from the perspective of potential employers and build out your self directed experience from there.

Niall

Aswerty

I'd be somewhat skeptical of your plan of action Roveros. It's easy to throw together a big TODO list but in reality your list contains much too broad a scope of work. If you're putting a lot of time into actually searching for a job you won't be making much of a dent in it. What I'd recommend, and I'm fully aware others might disagree, is to narrow down that list so you can develop a core skill set which targets a specific type of job.

If your main competency is Java, then to me, it makes the most sense to focus on applying for Junior/Entry/Graduate Java roles. And if you're going down the Java route you'll most likely be focused on back-end web systems. And if you're working on the back-end you'll end up doing DB related stuff (SQL) - as such stick with a traditional RDBMS such as Oracle or MySQL. Leave the NoSQL stuff to the "rockstars" that like playing with the newest tech. If you're relatively comfortable working with SQL you can dabble with an ORM such as Hibernate (assuming Hibernate is still #1). And don't forget a web framework such as Spring would be considered par for the course when doing this sort of work.

The Java world often requires some experience with Linux - so if you've no familiarity with it that could be an issue.

If you're looking for back-end work steer clear of mobile app development - it's a whole other career path for you at the moment. Also, don't focus on other back-end languages such as C# or PHP, it'll just spread your knowledge too thin. Don't touch back-end JavaScript (Node) either - only go near JavaScript if you're doing front end work. While there is a good market for JS devs I think you're better off leveraging the knowledge you currently have as opposed to trying to migrate to another core language.

If you make a GitHub account you'll be using Git for source control by default. Since you should just use one source control tool at this point in your learning, it follows that you shouldn't bother with SVN. Similarly don't go near docker - it's another new fangled tech that you shouldn't get distracted by. And don't touch bugzilla - if you're using GitHub check out their bug/issue features. Finally, give build tools a wide berth - they're so important but as another posted mentioned above they can be a bit of a beast and newbies will be forgiven for not being all that familiar with them.

The above is what you should focus on (in my opinion) but I haven't touched on how best to learn this stuff. In terms of how to structure your learning you've touched on some of the different approaches: freelancing, personal projects, open source projects. The other main one is doing code challenges such as Project Euler, Codility, Hacker Rank, etc.

First of all, stay well clear of free lance sites - you'll get paid beans and might end up doing work that doesn't improve your job prospects. This leaves personal projects and open source projects - both have their pluses and minuses. Open source projects are good for working inside an existing structure which is important for employers. Personal projects provide better insight into how to develop software. Bear in mind, jumping on board an open source project to make a few commits prior to finding a job is kind of a dick move since main contributors will probably have to hold your hand and code review your work - which is all wasted if you're not going to stick around. But if you find something you think you might like to stay involved in - get stuck in.

The code challenge sites are great for the few days leading up to an interview where you can refresh your white board coding skills since the challenges are typically computer science oriented as opposed to getting **** done oriented. But beyond that they're not great.

So if I had to revise your TODO list.

• Constantly reference job descriptions to identify prevalent requirements
• Make use of GitHub (and Git), build up repositories to demonstrate skill, link in C.V.
• Contribute to an open source project or work on a personal project (or a bit of both)
• Increase experience in Java (try use an ORM, Web Framework, testing framework, and IDE such as IntelliJ/NetBeans/Eclipse)
• Learn Oracle DB or MySQL.
• Become comfortable with Linux.
• Increase HTML/CSS/AJAX/JSON/XML/JavaScript/JQuery skillsets.

A single personal project (e.g. small web application) could potentially tick every box in the list.

counterpointaud

Leave the NoSQL stuff to the "rockstars" that like playing with the newest tech.

Similarly don't go near docker - it's another new fangled tech that you shouldn't get distracted by.

Not sure if I agree with the above, as I think both will have some prominence in the industry going forward, but in general this post has some really solid advice. Particularly if you want to focus on leveraging your existing Java skills. Definitely +1 to reducing your list just those areas that will give you most return on your time. Otherwise it is just too much for anyone.

Graham

Roveros wrote: »

Hi all,

I've read through the advice posted on this thread and have distilled it down to these bullet points in roughly descending order of implementation.

• Join LinkedIn and IrishJobs.
• Increase HTML/CSS/AJAX/JSON/XML/JavaScript/JQuery skillsets.
• Increase experience in Java, PHP, C# and possibly JavaScript.
• Learn Oracle DB, MongoDB, NoSQL.
• Make use of GitHub, build up repositories to demonstrate skill, link in C.V.
• Contribute to open source projects (codetriage) Goal: fix around 20 bugs, get your work committed to the main branch. Link to C.V
• Increase testing and test automation experience
• Gain mobile app experience
• Constantly reference job descriptions to identify prevalent requirements
• Try simple paid work on freelance.com
• Rent a Virtual Private Server, install Jenkins. Configure to talk to GitHub for testing automation. Make sure it public and put link in C.V
• Learn Docker, SVN, Bugzilla

I feel much more relaxed having plan of action now.

Holy crap. That's not an action plan, it's a software company. By all means investigate those options, pick a few that interest you and start from there.

Aswerty

counterpointaud wrote: »

Not sure if I agree with the above, as I think both will have some prominence in the industry going forward

Hehe, I will admit that I was being deliberately provocative! But in all honesty, I don't think these are good technologies to focus on since they solve problems Roveros has probably never encountered. Saying that, they can be good for ticking the employers "candidate has an interest in the industry" box. But there is any number of things a candidate can do or learn to tick that box.

counterpointaud

Aswerty wrote: »

Hehe, I will admit that I was being deliberately provocative! But in all honesty, I don't think these are good technologies to focus on since they solve problems Roveros has probably never encountered. Saying that, they can be good for ticking the employers "candidate has an interest in the industry" box. But there is any number of things a candidate can do or learn to tick that box.

Thought you might have been :-). I agree though, in terms of initial focus. It can also tick the "recruiter buzzword" box I guess. But just knowing what the terms mean without any great detailed knowledge can do that in fairness. Talking to recruiters vs. talking to technical interviewers is probably a whole other topic actually, now that I think of it.

Roveros

Hi all,

Alright, again I have to say how grateful I am for all this advice (and saving me from potentially trying to solo a software company, talk about full stack development!) I was looking at a graduate developer position in Bank of Ireland, the skill requirements listed include Java, SQL and HTML among others. I was immediately unsuccessful which I would attribute to not being able to tick the level 8 qualification form checkbox.

With the requirements for that most recent graduate advertisment and the advice from this thread in mind I'm revising my plans again. I'm going to find some online resources that teach Java, Oracle and HTML/CSS and run through them all to reinforce what I know. While doing this I'll add small programs to my GitHub where possible with this fresh look at these technologies. I have an idea for an end project I'd like to create that would, if completed, be very helpful in my portfolio and will hit most of the revised tasks Aswerty suggested.

While in college I had planned on writing my own version of a pomdoro study-aid app to teach myself android development. Now I think I should make it web-based instead. This would involve creating the basic website which you would register on, log into and create tasks on. It would store task information in a database and the back-end would be java. I'm sure doing this would teach me alot and give me the confidence to call myself a developer.

When I reach the point where I begin this end project I'll start a new thread for advice but in the meantime do you think my proposed course of action is practical? I realize the 'best' way to progress is subjective, I would just like to avoid any clearly bad ideas.

As always, thanks all

Manach

Perhaps have a strong non IT related discussion point that would highlight his people skills. Project work is a team effort and showing an ability to fit in would be a plus.

Merrion

Itzy wrote: »

A few things I think might help him:
Contribute to Open Source Projects

Underrated but really a good idea - it shows you are interested in programming.