rules query

First Up

The Rape of Lucretia wrote:

Who would be any the wiser ? Well, if you want to play gold that way - tee up the ball in the rough with your toe, drop a ball by the out of bounds and play on (add a stroke of you feel you should pay some penalty), drop a ball in the trees when your partners arent looking and say you have found your ball. Hey, if they dont spot you doing it, then who would be any wiser ?

With respect, that is a ridiculous comparison. Nobody is suggesting or condoning cheating. Comparing cards afterwards is the simplest solution but if two people want to decide their match by a method that affects nobody else they have my blessing.

BigChap1759

First Up wrote: »

With respect, that is a ridiculous comparison. Nobody is suggesting or condoning cheating. Comparing cards afterwards is the simplest solution but if two people want to decide their match by a method that affects nobody else they have my blessing.

Sorry but you can't separate out which rules broken constitute cheating and then the other ones - which you are suggesting it's OK to break because it wouldn't be "cheating"???

It's against the rules, end of story - if you want to dispute it then the GUI/R&A would be the best contacts

mike12

There are many silly rules in golf but u have to play by them.
There are a couple of things here.
U cannot play your matchplay and be in the singles comp at the same time.
You can decide to any method u like to decide a match if u cannot get it played, toss a coin, play tiddlywinks pull a name out of a hat.
The rule is u cannot play 2 comps at the same time.

Hoof Hearted2

First Up wrote: »

With respect, that is a ridiculous comparison. Nobody is suggesting or condoning cheating. Comparing cards afterwards is the simplest solution but if two people want to decide their match by a method that affects nobody else they have my blessing.

It's a slippery slope, once you "allow" people to use their own judgement, things become cloudy very quickly and anarchy will reign.

First Up

Hoof Hearted2 wrote: »

It's a slippery slope, once you "allow" people to use their own judgement, things become cloudy very quickly and anarchy will reign.

Its not about using their own judgement and there is absolutely no risk of anarchy. It is about two people agreeing the terms on which they will decide how their head to head is decided and with no impact on anyone else.

Of course, it would be best to play as a regular match play event but if they don't have that option, then there is nothing wrong with them using the result of another competition to decide.

Nobody has suggested combining or mix/match the rules of singles play and match play.

First Up

mike12 wrote: »

There are many silly rules in golf but u have to play by them.
There are a couple of things here.
U cannot play your matchplay and be in the singles comp at the same time.
You can decide to any method u like to decide a match if u cannot get it played, toss a coin, play tiddlywinks pull a name out of a hat.
The rule is u cannot play 2 comps at the same time.

If you want to decide it on the putting green it is your own business. So is using the result of a singles competition to decide your match. Nobody has suggested mixing the rules of singles and matchplay.

DuckSlice

i think when the rules say that you cannot play both at the same time, they mean you cant mix the rules of either type of play. So if you are playing a match, but also playing a strokeplay or stableford comp that you play to the rules of the strok/stableford comp. If you break a rule you dont lose the hole you get the penalty in strokes etc.

Thats my take on it anyway.

The Rape of Lucretia

First Up wrote: »

If you want to decide it on the putting green it is your own business.

It isnt. The match has not been played at all in that case, and so the result has not been determined. If the two players decide that they will declare one the winner, but whatever other means they choose between themselves rather than a legal match of golf between them, then they are breaking the rules. Both are disqualified. Agreeing to waive rules is explicitly against the rules and penalised by disqualification of both parties.

I can see how you might make the distinction with that and the more intuitive 'cheating' like kick your ball in the rough to a good lie, but nevertheless, that fact remains, that breaking the rules is cheating, and if knowingly and deliberately, then without any forgiving at all.

Seve OB

etxp wrote: »

Ive also played a match(or not played rather) where me and the other just couldnt get a time slot to suit each other before the deadline so we just said the winner would be decided on who had the best score in the weekly comp. Not ideal but if it wasnt played then our names would have been drawn out of a hat, so we didnt see the problem in it.

I find it hard to believe any club worth their salt would be ok with players doing that.

PARlance wrote: »

Can't see how that would possible as there are different rules for both formats. Playing out of turn etc.

PARlance wrote: »

Rule 33-1

Certain specific rules governing stroke play are so substantially different from those governing match play that combining the two forms of play is not practicable and is not permitted. The result of a match played in these circumstances is null and void and, in the stroke play competition, the competitors are disqualified.

PARlance wrote: »

The smart but correct answer: In the way that the R&A say they are. Their wording, not mine. Here's an article that goes into it in a bit of detail.

http://golf.about.com/od/beginners/a/matchplayrules.htm

In a way I have to disagree with you Parlance. The rules that are different are really rules regarding breeches of the rules. If you play the game as it should be played in the correct order and don't break any rules or allow gimmies, well then there should be no reason why you can't play a match within a singles comp. With the one obvious exception being that doing so in itself is an actual breech of the rules.

Personally I wouldn't do it because you go into a matchplay game with a totally different mindset to playing strokes/points. Well maybe you don't, but you should.

For example, an 8 on a par 4 might win you a hole in a matchplay. If you have a shot on the hole you would need a 6 to get a point. your opponent is in big trouble, and you are a shoe in to win the hole. do you play your 5th shot, a risky iron in over the water against the wind to try and get a 6? yes you probably do.... in a points game, probably layup in strokes and most definitely lay it up in a match where you have a few shots in hand

The Rape of Lucretia

First Up wrote: »

It is about two people agreeing the terms on which they will decide how their head to head is decided and with no impact on anyone else.

The two people have no input into the terms on which will decide how the match will be determined (if you want to play within the rules of golf - you can play snooker for it if you wish of course, but dont pretend you are playing golf).

First Up

The Rape of Lucretia wrote:

The two people have no input into the terms on which will decide how the match will be determined (if you want to play within the rules of golf - you can play snooker for it if you wish of course, but dont pretend you are playing golf).

It is not pretending anything. I am talking about a situation in which THE MATCH CANNOT BE PLAYED. The options are for one to give a walkover, toss a coin or find some other means. To my mind, deciding on the golf course is the best choice, as long as nobody else is affected.

But if you prefer they both be disqualified, then best of luck.

The Rape of Lucretia

First Up wrote: »

It is not pretending anything. I am talking about a situation in which THE MATCH CANNOT BE PLAYED. The options are for one to give a walkover, toss a coin or find some other means. To my mind, deciding on the golf course is the best choice, as long as nobody else is affected.

But if you prefer they both be disqualified, then best of luck.

With respect (;)), its not whether I prefer it or not that we are discussing. It is the rule. Matches not played by the deadline, unless an extension is given by the competition committee, is disqualification for both players. Walkover, coin toss, etc are not options.

DuckSlice

Seve OB wrote: »

I find it hard to believe any club worth their salt would be ok with players doing that.

I didn't see the problem with it when they were just going to toss a coin to see who won the match anyway.

I'm all for playing by the rules and now i know the rule i wont be doing it again. on the other hand if 2 guys want to decide a match by a strokeplay comp then let them off.

First Up

etxp wrote:

I'm all for playing by the rules and now i know the rule i wont be doing it again. on the other hand if 2 guys want to decide a match by a strokeplay comp then let them off.

It happens all the time. I know societies where many of the matchplay matches are held during regular stableford outings.

Dublin Spur

whilst I agree that its far from an ideal situation - neither player will gain any advantage either in their match or the club competition by playing in both at the same time.

therefore I don't see why (logically) it should cause any difficulty to allow it

mike12

Where is it in the rules that u can't give a walkover all the rule says is you can't play matchplay during and a stroke play competition.
Unless your club doesn't allow walkovers if u can't play the match and they say toss a coin if u decide to do something a bit different I can't see the problem with it.

PARlance

Seve OB wrote: »

In a way I have to disagree with you Parlance. The rules that are different are really rules regarding breeches of the rules. If you play the game as it should be played in the correct order and don't break any rules or allow gimmies, well then there should be no reason why you can't play a match within a singles comp. With the one obvious exception being that doing so in itself is an actual breech of the rules.

It's the R&A that say they are significantly different. That's a direct quote from Rule 33-1.

The rules encompass the various penalties for breech of rules. The penalties are different. You can't just assume there'll be no breeches, there would be no point in having any rules if it wasnt the case.

BigChap1759

mike12 wrote: »

Where is it in the rules that u can't give a walkover all the rule says is you can't play matchplay during and a stroke play competition.
Unless your club doesn't allow walkovers if u can't play the match and they say toss a coin if u decide to do something a bit different I can't see the problem with it.

Pretty sure it specifies that the match must take place over the stipulated course to decide the result - so u couldn't decide to play it over 9 holes

The Rape of Lucretia

mike12 wrote: »

Where is it in the rules that u can't give a walkover all the rule says is you can't play matchplay during and a stroke play competition.

Rules 1 and 2 :

RULE 1-3. Agreement to Waive Rules. Players must not agree to exclude the operation of any Rule or to waive any penalty incurred
PENALTY FOR BREACH OF RULE 1-3: Match play – Disqualification of both sides; Stroke play – Disqualification of competitors concerned.


RULE 2-1. General. A match consists of one side playing against another over a stipulated round unless otherwise decreed by the Committee. In match play the game is played by holes except as otherwise provided in the Rules, a hole is won by the side that holes its ball in the fewer strokes. In a handicap match, the lower net score wins the hole.

The “stipulated round’’ consists of playing the holes of the course in their correct sequence, unless otherwise authorised by the Committee. The number of holes in a stipulated round is 18 unless a smaller number is authorised by the Committee.




And further in the Decisions :

6-1/1 Wrong Form of Play Used in Match-Play Event
Q.In a foursome match-play competition, four players begin their match on a four-ball match-play basis. The error is discovered after play of the 9th hole. What is the ruling?

A.It would be improper to decide any match by a form of play other than the prescribed form.

If the wrong form of play is used as a result of a Committee error, the match should be replayed. If the wrong form of play is used unintentionally by players, the match should be replayed; if, however, this would delay the competition, both sides should be disqualified unless one side concedes the match to the other - see Rules 2-4 and 6-1. If the wrong form of play is used intentionally by players, they should be disqualified - Rule 1-3.

i.e. you must play golf to decide the outcome, otherwise, both players are disqualified.

DuckSlice

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

i.e. you must play golf to decide the outcome, otherwise, both players are disqualified.

The match can also be conceded.

The Rape of Lucretia

etxp wrote: »

The match can also be conceded.

Yes indeed.

mike12

Once u can concede the match and the committee are happy to allow that, u can basically decide how u do that.
Toss a coin is the most common and I'm pretty sure that is not a form of golf.

BigChap1759

mike12 wrote: »

Once u can concede the match and the committee are happy to allow that, u can basically decide how u do that.
Toss a coin is the most common and I'm pretty sure that is not a form of golf.

Might be pedantic but I don't think that is conceding - conceding is one lad saying I can't play due to holiday/injury etc and I'll concede the match to you

First Up

BigChap1759 wrote:

Might be pedantic but I don't think that is conceding - conceding is one lad saying I can't play due to holiday/injury etc and I'll concede the match to you

The reason for the concession is irrelevant.

DuckSlice

mike12 wrote: »

Once u can concede the match and the committee are happy to allow that, u can basically decide how u do that.
Toss a coin is the most common and I'm pretty sure that is not a form of golf.

The committee have no say wether someone wants to concede a match or not.

They probably could have something to say about it being decided by the toss of a coin, but being realistic they probably wouldnt care, they have their entry fee.